Tim Cook Visits Ireland as Apple Promotes Its Support of Over 1.7 Million Jobs in Europe

[developer13245]

One interesting observation:

Cook visits a cherry-picked iOS dev team that makes ZERO money selling software. Nothing against hostelworld - I'm sure they do a fine job booking hostel stays, which is their business. But their development and support of an iOS app is purely overhead for this company. If this is the best Cook can do in the land of Ire, it surely speaks to the problem Apple is facing - a slow down in platform innovation. Apple's "DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS" moments at WWDC '18 (cloaked in the form of stupid patronizing videos) is a sign that they know something is wrong, but have no clue how to fix it.

Software development teams that exist as "overhead" generally never generate platform innovations. This is because their main focus is lowering their cost of (overhead) existence.

 

[Glockworkorange]

One interesting observation:

Cook visits a cherry-picked iOS dev team that makes ZERO money selling software. Nothing against hostelworld - I'm sure they do a fine job booking hostel stays, which is their business. But their development and support of an iOS app is purely overhead for this company. If this is the best Cook can do in the land of Ire, it surely speaks to the problem Apple is facing - a slow down in platform innovation. Apple's "DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS" moments at WWDC '18 (cloaked in the form of stupid patronizing videos) is a sign that they know something is wrong, but have no clue how to fix it.

Software development teams that exist as "overhead" generally never generate platform innovations. This is because their main focus is lowering their cost of (overhead) existence.

I thought that video intro was awful.

 

[69650]

Apple runs a business that is owned by shareholders. Do you think it’s wrong for any company to maximize tax advantages while also following every US and foreign tax law to the letter?

Why should they pay more tax than they have to? Apple is already the largest taxpayer in he world.

Welcome to business.

They should pay the same rate of tax that the rest of us in business have pay. No more and no less. Just because they can bribe the Irish government to get a giant tax dodge doesn’t make it right.

Clearly they haven’t been following the letter of the law in Europe as they were found guilty of underpaying tax in Ireland.

 

[Glockworkorange]

They should pay the same rate of tax that the rest of us in business have pay. No more and no less. Just because they can bribe the Irish government to get a giant tax dodge doesn’t make it right.

Clearly they haven’t been following the letter of the law in Europe as they were found guilty of underpaying tax in Ireland.

Ah, but they followed the letter of the law in Ireland.

 

[69650]

I don’t believe Cook’s numbers re 1.7m jobs dependent on the AppStore. Most developers build apps for iOS and Android as well as Mac, Windows, Cloud, etc.

 

[PaulRustad007]

Tim is renegotiating his tax deals.......Make Apple Great Again!

 

[corebeliefs]

Apple runs a business that is owned by shareholders. Do you think it’s wrong for any company to maximize tax advantages while also following every US and foreign tax law to the letter?

Why should they pay more tax than they have to? Apple is already the largest taxpayer in he world.

Welcome to business.

Very few of us need to be welcomed to business by a commenter at Macrumors. Apple talks out of both sides of its mouth on the competing issues of progressiveness and tax shelters. The progressive cause runs on taxes, i.e. other people's money. Apple is showing the sham that its own beliefs are based on, shielding its money like it's Exxon.

At least it has company in the tech sector, which is an industry built on cognitive dissonance.

 

[fairuz]

All you guys calling this BS, I wouldn't call that so fast. Ireland has a big tech industry, I'm guessing because their taxes are so low. I'd believe that these employees are actually hired for their work and not as a front.
[doublepost=1529459272][/doublepost]

Hm, this might be true in absolute sense but as a percentage of total income they are one of the smallest taxpayers in the world. Heck, every broke ass freelancer is a bigger tax payer than them as a percentage of income.

I keep hearing this, and then while I'm doing my taxes I see that half of Americans pay basically no tax, and the rest pay less than 25% unless they make like $100K/year and don't get to write stuff off. I know corps get away with things that individuals can't, but it's not that extreme.
[doublepost=1529459837][/doublepost]

I don’t think it is wrong to do that. I do think it is wrong when so many of the executives and directors express political views about how we need high domestic taxes to support their social welfare and social justice programs. I call that hypocritical.

Who has asked for high domestic taxes? I've only read the opposite. Social justice, sure, but that's unrelated.
[doublepost=1529460437][/doublepost]

You do realise that not all the employees that work in Cork are from the area originally? The reason it's based there in the first place, was because of the tax deal the Irish government and Apple agreed on.

The EU doesn't agree this is a valid legal tax strategy, and this is why there is a few billion euros held in an escrow account until Ireland/Apple/the EU all agree (or be told) what to do. Since the EU doesn't agree that this deal was 'valid', i think i'm perfectly right on describing it as 'laundering'. It doesn't matter if other companies do this too, as they will eventually get fined for back taxes too.

Why does it matter where the employees are from? The employees work there legally, they make the products there because it's cheaper, then they distribute them from there. I really don't get what the issue is. What is an issue is the "Double Irish with a Dutch Sandwich" technique whose loophole has been closed.

Also, the EU can stop Ireland from doing this, but I don't see how Apple has violated any laws. At worst Ireland might have.

 

[travelsheep]

I spent 6 months on developing my app. Never made it anywhere into the top 100, not even on launch, just disappeared. I payed my $ 100 developer license for 3 years, because people really liked my app and I didn't want to pull it. Never made more than $ 80 a year. Pulled it eventually. I guess only a few developers make actual money. Big startups and also spam app developers, and a few indies.

First two pictures of this article actually taken on an iPhone, I guess.

 

[Baymowe335]

Sure. Nothing like citing their own press release for an unbiased look at their stellar efforts to thwart climate change.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexep...ples-100-renewable-energy-usage/#fe38571189c6

http://industrialprogress.com/the-truth-about-apples-100-renewable-energy-usage/

Oh, you’re just learning about green credits? Of course, all power is the same once it’s on the grid.

Apple is doing their part.
[doublepost=1529466599][/doublepost]

Very few of us need to be welcomed to business by a commenter at Macrumors. Apple talks out of both sides of its mouth on the competing issues of progressiveness and tax shelters. The progressive cause runs on taxes, i.e. other people's money. Apple is showing the sham that its own beliefs are based on, shielding its money like it's Exxon.

At least it has company in the tech sector, which is an industry built on cognitive dissonance.

They have a duty to protect their assets, because they are owned by the shareholders.

They follow every domestic and international tax law, to the letter. Life isn’t always so simple. They pay more taxes than anyone.
[doublepost=1529466695][/doublepost]

They should pay the same rate of tax that the rest of us in business have pay. No more and no less. Just because they can bribe the Irish government to get a giant tax dodge doesn’t make it right.

Clearly they haven’t been following the letter of the law in Europe as they were found guilty of underpaying tax in Ireland.

No, they shouldn’t. Contact your representatives because they’ll,pay what they have to in accordance with the tax law and not a penny more.

Shareholders own the company and Apple has a duty to maximize shareholder value within the confines of the law. That’s what they do; that’s why every company does. End of story.

 

[Bacillus]

Yeah, everything is a conspiracy/lie.

Apple now globally powered by 100 percent renewable energy
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2018/04/apple-now-globally-powered-by-100-percent-renewable-energy/

Ahhh! Run to the AppleStores before that chilly winter starts !
As apparently they stopped heating all their gas-heated heritage premises in Europe.


[doublepost=1529480528][/doublepost]

Oh, you’re just learning about green credits? Of course, all power is the same once it’s on the grid.

Apple is doing their part.

Apple is (deliberately) confusing you, as 100% green does not exist for businesses of their size
They buy themselves into 100% renewable equivalence (which essentially is paying to pollute, less impressive with their cash position)
Note: in my country omitting that term is an (illegal) falsification

 

[corebeliefs]

Oh, you’re just learning about green credits? Of course, all power is the same once it’s on the grid.

Apple is doing their part.
[doublepost=1529466599][/doublepost]
They have a duty to protect their assets, because they are owned by the shareholders.

They follow every domestic and international tax law, to the letter. Life isn’t always so simple. They pay more taxes than anyone.
[doublepost=1529466695][/doublepost]
No, they shouldn’t. Contact your representatives because they’ll,pay what they have to in accordance with the tax law and not a penny more.

Shareholders own the company and Apple has a duty to maximize shareholder value within the confines of the law. That’s what they do; that’s why every company does. End of story.

The progressive cause is based on the premise that you must pay "more than your fair share." It's why the Democrats vow to repeal the Republican tax cuts if they retake the House. Apple uses a progressive image better than anyone to gain favor with woke urbanites, sign progressive icons such as Oprah, and to avoid scrutiny with how it actually handles business. The smokescreen is clearly working. There's really nothing different about it, just the same old hypocrisy that many companies use to gain an advantage. Those of us who try to actually live values, and hold to values when it's inconvenient, don't pat Apple on the back for this.

 

[laz232]

Sec.gov

Their tax rate is public information. Just admit you were wrong and let’s move on.

Thank you for the link. I don't know why you are attacking me or what I was wrong about (I linked to a Irish Times article) but ok...

Although I looked through the 10k filing, there are a number of things that I don't think would come up in there, depending on how the Apple subsidiaries (Apple Sales International, Apple Distribution etc) are reported.
Also regarding:
https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/subcom...e-profit-shifting-and-the-us-tax-code_-part-2

https://www.icij.org/investigations...nd-hop-revealed-by-paradise-papers-leak-icij/

 

[Buck Mulligan]

Outside of paying wages etc Apple's contribution to the Irish economy is a joke and their efforts at sponsorship is next to non-existent.

 

[Glockworkorange]

Oh, you’re just learning about green credits? Of course, all power is the same once it’s on the grid.

Apple is doing their part.
[doublepost=1529466599][/doublepost]
They have a duty to protect their assets, because they are owned by the shareholders.

They follow every domestic and international tax law, to the letter. Life isn’t always so simple. They pay more taxes than anyone.
[doublepost=1529466695][/doublepost]
No, they shouldn’t. Contact your representatives because they’ll,pay what they have to in accordance with the tax law and not a penny more.

Shareholders own the company and Apple has a duty to maximize shareholder value within the confines of the law. That’s what they do; that’s why every company does. End of story.

"Credits." Lol. Okay. Sure.

 

[69650]

Ah, but they followed the letter of the law in Ireland.

Clearly they didn’t or they wouldn’t have been handed a £13Bn fine. EU law overrides Irish law.

 

[Glockworkorange]

Clearly they didn’t or they wouldn’t have been handed a £13Bn fine. EU law overrides Irish law.

A central government:

• unaccountable to the people of which it rules over and
• disrespectful of the laws and desires of it's member countries.

Lol. Great system over there. It's tyranny and Europe is a dumpster fire.

 

[Omega Mac]

One interesting observation:

Cook visits a cherry-picked iOS dev team that makes ZERO money selling software. Nothing against hostelworld - I'm sure they do a fine job booking hostel stays, which is their business. But their development and support of an iOS app is purely overhead for this company. If this is the best Cook can do in the land of Ire, it surely speaks to the problem Apple is facing - a slow down in platform innovation. Apple's "DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS" moments at WWDC '18 (cloaked in the form of stupid patronizing videos) is a sign that they know something is wrong, but have no clue how to fix it.

Software development teams that exist as "overhead" generally never generate platform innovations. This is because their main focus is lowering their cost of (overhead) existence.

Surely they make money from bookings and the like not the sale of the app, the app merely support the business model.

Also, don't be surprised if there is some political Irish connection to that visit.

For the sake of the thread and record.

Leo Varadkar was not elected in a popular vote by the Irish people as their leader. This is a fact.

On the resignation of the previous leader (Taoiseach) and also leader of Fine Gael (political party) Leo Varadkar won an internal leadership contest against fellow members and then was appointed Taoiseach (Prime Minister) by the Dail (Parliament).

He's also rabid europhile and therefore works in direct opposition to the good of the Irish people.

 

[Baymowe335]

The progressive cause is based on the premise that you must pay "more than your fair share." It's why the Democrats vow to repeal the Republican tax cuts if they retake the House. Apple uses a progressive image better than anyone to gain favor with woke urbanites, sign progressive icons such as Oprah, and to avoid scrutiny with how it actually handles business. The smokescreen is clearly working. There's really nothing different about it, just the same old hypocrisy that many companies use to gain an advantage. Those of us who try to actually live values, and hold to values when it's inconvenient, don't pat Apple on the back for this.

I'm not attacking you. I just don't think we should be discussing things that are public knowledge. The statement of, "Apple pays the lowest tax as a percentage of income," is not only flat out wrong, it's not even close to right.

Before corporate tax reform, which lowered taxes for all companies, an effective rate of 25% was actually one of the higher rates. REITs and other companies with tons of capital intensive projects (like GE, GM, REITs) could easily use fancy accounting to lower their rates, sometimes to negative rates.

Apple can't do that because of the kind of business they are, although I wouldn't blame any company for trying (as long as they follow the rules as written).

Remember, it's not a company's fault for using the tax laws to their advantage. That's the lawmakers job.

 

[Omega Mac]

You pay nominal 52-55% income tax in Ireland - unless you get the corporate package, which I don't believe any native companies get only the Foreign Direct Investment corps.

(sales tax is 23% on most item, excepting services/food 13.5%/9% and sometimes 0% - included in price so you can't easily see the legal theft in process)

 

[Rick Corbett]

'Nicole, a Product Quality Engineer, at Apple's iMac facility in Cork'.

She's doing a terrible job atm. Crack on love!

Must be the chemicals in all the loose hair. Most *quality* 'Product Quality' lines insist on hair nets to prevent contamination.

 

[Omega Mac]

Must be the chemicals in all the loose hair. Most *quality* 'Product Quality' lines insist on hair nets to prevent contamination.

Press photo, she was probably asked to look busy for the photographer - Surely we have more important things to be doing today!

 

[corebeliefs]

I'm not attacking you. I just don't think we should be discussing things that are public knowledge. The statement of, "Apple pays the lowest tax as a percentage of income," is not only flat out wrong, it's not even close to right.

Before corporate tax reform, which lowered taxes for all companies, an effective rate of 25% was actually one of the higher rates. REITs and other companies with tons of capital intensive projects (like GE, GM, REITs) could easily use fancy accounting to lower their rates, sometimes to negative rates.

Apple can't do that because of the kind of business they are, although I wouldn't blame any company for trying (as long as they follow the rules as written).

Remember, it's not a company's fault for using the tax laws to their advantage. That's the lawmakers job.

It's all good. We're talking about two different things, I think. You're completely right about what Apple is doing from a financial perspective. No one can argue that the US tax laws allow for what Apple is doing.

What I'm talking about is corporate responsibility, as a company that increasingly is, under Tim Cook, championing progressive causes and making a big deal about being a good corporate citizen. The progressive cause is not about doing the least and pointing to a law saying, look I'm within the law. It's about going above and beyond and inspiring people to do the same. No one can say that Apple is going above and beyond for America by parking its billions offshore.

Apple is being hypocritical, I don't think there is any question. Apple charges the highest prices, gets the highest margins, and along with the rest of the tech sector, pays the lowest wages it can get away with. It is almost a trillion dollar company. No sympathy for why it uses financial loopholes, yet uses a progressive positioning for its marketing. There is nothing progressive about it. It's what so called evil big business has done since the beginning.

 

[Jack Burton]

I just want the lady repairing the iMac to tie her hair back or wear a hairnet. I once got an iMac serviced and there was a hair almost dead center in my screen when I got it back.

That's even more annoying than one would think.

 

[Baymowe335]

It's all good. We're talking about two different things, I think. You're completely right about what Apple is doing from a financial perspective. No one can argue that the US tax laws allow for what Apple is doing.

What I'm talking about is corporate responsibility, as a company that increasingly is, under Tim Cook, championing progressive causes and making a big deal about being a good corporate citizen. The progressive cause is not about doing the least and pointing to a law saying, look I'm within the law. It's about going above and beyond and inspiring people to do the same. No one can say that Apple is going above and beyond for America by parking its billions offshore.

Apple is being hypocritical, I don't think there is any question. Apple charges the highest prices, gets the highest margins, and along with the rest of the tech sector, pays the lowest wages it can get away with. It is almost a trillion dollar company. No sympathy for why it uses financial loopholes, yet uses a progressive positioning for its marketing. There is nothing progressive about it. It's what so called evil big business has done since the beginning.

Dude, you have to understand that Apple is doing what they have to do to be fiscally responsible to its shareholders. It is their fiscal duty.

They literally can't make stupid financial decisions with cash because they want to "do what's best for America." They have to do what's best for Apple and parking that money overseas was what had to be done.

The lawmakers changed the law and now it's back in America.