Time Capsule Not Using Server-Grade Hard Drive As Advertised?

[milo]

So this is gone from the front page now?

Why did MR pull it? This seems like a pretty big story, and I'd want to know about it if I were considering a time capsule.

 

[notjustjay]

PCs are PCs, Macs are Macs. What is a server to the PC platform is not a server to a Mac. "Pee Cee Servers" running operating systems like FreeBSD may advertise uptimes of like 99.99999%, but that is the acceptable uptime for a "Pee Cee", for a Mac it is different. Which is why we have weekly downtimes at the Apple Store every week new products are added. It is all still good, we still have 90% uptime on the Mac platform anyway, and for a Mac it is unsurpassed.

I for one am glad to get the very same high quality hard drives that are used in the XServe in my Time Capsule. Only Apple can deliver such high quality dedication and commitment to their customers.

You can claim that the hard disks used in the XServes are no different from those used in Dell desktops, but I beg to differ. That Apple logo on the drives still represents a mark of quality to me.

I smell a troll. This is just way too ludicrous to be taken seriously any other way.

If you are not trolling, then please rid yourself of any delusion that you speak for the rest of the Mac community. "90% uptime is unsurpassed for a Mac"?

 

[AidenShaw]

So this is gone from the front page now?

Why did MR pull it? This seems like a pretty big story, and I'd want to know about it if I were considering a time capsule.

Arn demoted it:

I page 2'd this article, since I have a different opinion on the matter than Longofest, who wrote it.

To me "server grade" is a non-specific term. It's a descriptive term, not a technical one. It's like saying "really good hard drive". I don't think it is something that can be considered a precise term.

arn

 

[TMay]

Don't try to confuse the issue by bringing high end SCSI/SAS/FC disks into the argument.

Most of these manufacturers have two lines of SATA drives, a consumer line and a server line with higher MTBF and warranty. These are the "good" and "better" SATA lines.




I do accept that, but until Apple clarifies their tech specs and ad copy, Apple's use of the undefined term "server grade" can be misleading. It would be reasonable to believe that when Apple says "server grade", they are referring to the disk maker's "better" line of server SATA drives.




Actually, I have never said that the Deskstar is unsuitable for the Time Capsule.

I have said that Apple's use of the undefined term "server grade" would reasonably lead one to expect to find the 1.2 million hour MTBF Ultrastar drive in the TC. Note that Apple does seem to use the 1.2 million hour MTBF Barracuda ES drive in the 500 GB model.

If Apple would say "at least 1 million hour MTBF" in their ads and specs, then there would be no problem with deception - nobody would expect a 1.2 million hour MTBF drive.

I picked up the 500GB at the local Apple Store friday, so I have skin in the game. I will happily agree that if Apple defines in their ads and specs what a server grade drive is, then this thread is kapoot.

I picked the 500GB for use with a MacBook that I picked up earlier for my parents, saving me the effort of having to backup their stuff, with the bonus of a wireless router. For that, Time Capsule is ideal and an excellent price.

Based on the expected failure rates of the drive and the device, I expect that a very small percentage of users might unhappily discover that they've lost their primary backup, and with that, perhaps a very small amount of data.

For myself, I would like to attach a USB drive to Time Capsule so that I can autoclone once a week using an Automator script or something. If anyone wants to create that, I won't stand in the way.

 

[sterlingindigo]

pants on fire

Apple legal called, take it down.

 

[laprej]

Ok

Let's all agree to disagree, shall we? There's no sense in beating a dead horse any more than we have been doing - he's already a bloody pulp. 15 pages of people screaming about "server-grade" and then the people rushing to Apple's defense. Whether or not it was right or wrong, it doesn't matter. Apple did it. End of story. Complaining about a product is one thing. That doesn't require 15 pages of posts. At this point you've made clear your stance, and I can name the top 10 authors of positive/negative posts because I've seen your argument reworded 100 times. Enough.

 

[Digital Skunk]

Then let's just stop posting about ending the thread and don't post anything at all that will cause it to jump to the top of the page for anyone else to see....

Like I just did

It's okay aquajet...

 

[aquajet]

Don't try to confuse the issue by bringing high end SCSI/SAS/FC disks into the argument.

Most of these manufacturers have two lines of SATA drives, a consumer line and a server line with higher MTBF and warranty. These are the "good" and "better" SATA lines.

I'm not trying to confuse anything. I am however pointing out that things aren't as simple as you are implying and that different manufacturers are free to assign different criteria to what they consider "consumer" or "server". Looking at the Hitachi's product literature, it appears as if their consumer line also doubles as a server line. Additionally, some manufacturers have different performance specifications between their consumer and server SATA products. Take a look at it for yourself and decide whether or not your neat and simple categorizations are really relevent.

I do accept that, but until Apple clarifies their tech specs and ad copy, Apple's use of the undefined term "server grade" can be misleading. It would be reasonable to believe that when Apple says "server grade", they are referring to the disk maker's "better" line of server SATA drives.

With respect to the example of a Time Capsule which shipped with a Barracuda ES, that's exactly the case. However, Hitachi doesn't use the same criteria between their product lines as Seagate, and in fact it appears as if there is some level of overlap between intended uses. Considering the fact that "server grade" refers to a specific MTBF rating, we can only hope that the Deskstar in question meets this specification because it's not actually published (although, they do claim it can be used in servers!).

If you weren't so obsessed over obscure product delineations and specific dictionary words in a product's name, perhaps you would see how much of a non issue this whole thing really is.

Then let's just stop posting about ending the thread and don't post anything at all that will cause it to jump to the top of the page for anyone else to see....

Sorry I couldn't help myself.

 

[AidenShaw]

Considering the fact that "server grade" refers to a specific MTBF rating, we can only hope that the Deskstar in question meets this specification because it's not actually published (although, they do claim it can be used in servers!).

Please show me Apple Time Capsule ads or literature that define a "server grade" hard drive as a disk with an MTBF of 10^6 hours or more.

 

[jragosta]

Please show me Apple Time Capsule ads or literature that define a "server grade" hard drive as a disk with an MTBF of 10^6 hours or more.

Sure. As soon as you show me an Apple Time Capsule ad which specifies that Time Capsule includes an enterprise drive.

 

[matticus008]

Please show me Apple Time Capsule ads or literature that define a "server grade" hard drive as a disk with an MTBF of 10^6 hours or more.

Let's see literature of any kind from any manufacturer that simplifies their hard drive products into "two flavors" as you continuously and erroneously claim.

And, to repeat, the deception comes from a reader making the reasonable assumption that by "server grade" Apple is referring to a disk drive makers "better" line. Disks come in two flavors, so if Apple is touting that they are using "server flavor" drives, then it is reasonable to assume that Apple is using what the disk makers call their server lines.

They are what the disk makers call their server lines. They are not what the disk makers call their enterprise lines. Seagate makes no less than four "levels" of 3.5" SATA hard drives (Barracuda for servers and workstations and Barracuda ES for enterprise servers). Western Digital has no fewer than three tiers of Caviar products (only two marketed for servers and none for enterprise applications--those are WD RE products). Fujisu markets three tiers of drives (one for servers and industrial applications and a separate one for enterprise applications).

It is simply not the case that there are "two flavors" of disk drives. Hitachi even has four different 3.5" product lines. Within the Deskstar line, if you want a "consumer" drive not recommended for server use of any kind, you've got the P7K series. The 7K and the T7K are rated for desktop, workstation, entry, and mid-range server applications. In fact, the Deskstar line even has an enterprise series, the E7K, completely blowing your 'Deskstar=desktop' argument out of the water.

The "deception" is that Apple is using an undefined term, and there is a reasonable basis for confusion.

Only if you're an idiot or a whiner intentionally trying to create confusion. Do you have a Maxtor drive, a plain Seagate drive, a plain WD Caviar, a Deskstar P7K or another consumer-only drive in there? Nope.

Is a Barracuda, a Deskstar 7K, a Fujitsu MHW2, or a Caviar SE or better marketed for server use? Yep. Does the Time Capsule use one of these drives or better? Yes. End of story.

Even if your flatly untrue "two flavor" theory were correct, and nothing counted as a server except enterprise servers, you'd have to see the word "enterprise" advertised somewhere to expect it. All manufacturers use enterprise to designate their highest line and never merely "server".

 

[AidenShaw]

Let's see literature of any kind from any manufacturer that simplifies their hard drive products into "two flavors" as you continuously and erroneously claim.

No problem.

 

[matticus008]

No problem.

Notice how in each of those you have to circle two out of a longer list, and how you always select "desktop" and "enterprise"?

That's exactly the point.

The Deskstar line has four series: the P7K consumer, the T7K and 7K consumer/server, and the E7K enterprise.

Seagate has five different varieties: Maxtor consumer drives, Seagate consumer drives, Seagate Barracuda consumer/server drives, Barracuda ES enterprise drives, and Cheetah enterprise drives.

 

[AidenShaw]

Notice how in each of those you have to circle two out of a longer list, and how you always select "desktop" and "enterprise"?

yes, because it didn't seem like laptop drives or external USB drives were relevant.

You are blindly missing the point - and that is that Apple has done nothing to define the term "server grade" in their literature and ads.

In the lack of a definition, Apple's marketing is hoping that people will assume that "server grade" is better than a desktop drive. You look at the disk websites, and you see "desktop" and "server/enterprise" - and many have been misled into believing that "server grade" means the better drive.

If Apple would put their definition of "server grade" in their ad copy - end of discussion.

 

[xUKHCx]

While I find this whole discussion a bit over the top and there are far too many pages to see if this has been posted before (and frankly if it hasn't I'll be astounded)

But the manual for the drive actually says



Therefore apple are well within their minds to say it is server especially considering they use them in their servers.

 

[matticus008]

yes, because it didn't seem like laptop drives or external USB drives were relevant.

Those aren't the only ones you left out, and the quick-navigation links don't reflect the model lines at all. For Hitachi, you left out Endurastar and CinemaStar products (both 3.5" SATA drives). In fact, were you to click on "Products" for Seagate, you'd see a more thorough lineup:

You are blindly missing the point - and that is that Apple has done nothing to define the term "server grade" in their literature and ads.

Welcome to Marketing 101. The best terms are terms with no particular meaning. "Enterprise grade" means something. It was not used and not promised.

"Server grade" means nothing more than recommended for use in servers. All major manufacturers have drives for sale below that threshold--drives Apple is not using.

In the lack of a definition, Apple's marketing is hoping that people will assume that "server grade" is better than a desktop drive.

It is. It is better than a plain consumer drive, just as a Barracuda is better than a regular Seagate (not recommended for servers in their white papers) or a Maxtor (same).

Your term "desktop drive" is ambiguous at best. You're using it as a quality indicator, but "desktop" isn't a quality indicator--it's a format indicator, usually used to refer to 3.5" drives, as opposed to laptop 2.5" drives. If you want to get technical, an enterprise-grade drive is still a desktop drive. It's still a 3.5" drive with standard offsets for mounting. "Desktop-grade" seems a bit moronic and undefined as well. You'd do better to refer to a consumer-grade or desktop-format drive.

You look at the disk websites, and you see "desktop" and "server/enterprise" - and many have been misled into believing that "server grade" means the better drive.

Exactly no one has been thus misled. Server grade means a better drive, but your ridiculous binary implies only two series of drives. Seagate has five 3.5" SATA product lines. Hitachi has four, each with multiple series (the Deskstar includes four series and spans the gap between consumer, high performance/server, and enterprise). Western Digital has six or seven. If there were only "okay" and "better" designators, you could support no more than two product lines.

All "server grade" means is better than a plain consumer drive. That obligation is met. It's not a plain Seagate, a WD Caviar, an Hitachi P7K, a Maxtor, or some other consumer-only line drive. It is a superior drive. It is not obliged to be an enterprise drive.

 

[asdavis10]

yes, because it didn't seem like laptop drives or external USB drives were relevant.

You are blindly missing the point - and that is that Apple has done nothing to define the term "server grade" in their literature and ads.

In the lack of a definition, Apple's marketing is hoping that people will assume that "server grade" is better than a desktop drive. You look at the disk websites, and you see "desktop" and "server/enterprise" - and many have been misled into believing that "server grade" means the better drive.

If Apple would put their definition of "server grade" in their ad copy - end of discussion.

Why does Apple have to define server-grade when its not an industry standard term? They are well within their right to use it in reference to the drive in Time Capsule if they use it in their line of servers and if the manufacturer says it can be used in servers.

 

[AidenShaw]

Why does Apple have to define server-grade when its not an industry standard term?

Are you serious with that question? Truth in advertising, perhaps?

Or at least not trying to use undefined ambiguous terms that are likely to be misinterpreted as meaning something better than what is actually shipping?

Note the first post in this thread is a "WTF is a Deskstar instead of an Ultrastar doing in the TC?" post. Had Apple put a footnote on "server grade" that said "at least 10^6 hour MTBF" that post probably wouldn't have been made.

Enough though, people either think that Apple is free to invent misleading crap in their ads, or that they should be held accountable for their claims. Those two sides will never agree. Even when Apple uses bald-faced lies like "first 64-bit desktop" there are fanbois who say that Apple is correct. Unbelievable....

 

[aquajet]

Enough though, people either think that Apple is free to invent misleading crap in their ads, or that they should be held accountable for their claims.

Ridiculous. I nor anybody else have claimed that Apple are free to invent misleading crap.

Quite frankly, one could view this whole episode as a simple critical thinking exercise. Some have passed, others have failed.

 

[AidenShaw]

Ridiculous. [Neither] I nor anybody else have claimed that Apple are free to invent misleading crap.

Really? The last post I replied to said "Why does Apple have to define server-grade when its not an industry standard term?"

Quite frankly, one could view this whole episode as a simple critical thinking exercise. Some have passed, others have failed.

And how, pray tell, do we employ critical thinking about an undefined term like "server grade"?

It's more appropriate to say that this whole episode is like the blind men and the elephant - we're all right to some extent...

...

Nothing worth a comment in that post....

 

[matticus008]

Or at least not trying to use undefined ambiguous terms

Oh, like "desktop grade"?

Had Apple put a footnote on "server grade" that said "at least 10^6 hour MTBF" that post probably wouldn't have been made.

Of course it would. If there's anything reliable on the Internet, it's that people will bitch first and think later.

Enough though, people either think that Apple is free to invent misleading crap in their ads, or that they should be held accountable for their claims.

Some of us believe that both sides should be held accountable for their claims and that uninformed and self-instigated whining and moaning should be called out for what it is: crap. Are you going to complain about Intel's server chipsets not all being enterprise chipsets or Dell's PowerEdge servers not all being suitable for enterprise use?

If Hitachi didn't explicitly claim that its Deskstars were suitable for servers, or if no other company used them in servers but Apple, or if hard drive manufacturers advertised every single drive for servers, maybe you'd be somewhere.

 

[laprej]

we're all right to some extent...

I'm not.

 

[jragosta]

we're all right to some extent...

Sadly, that's not true. I can't see anything in your posts which is correct.

Apple says it's a server grade drive. Hitachi says it's a server drive. Apple uses it in servers. Dell uses it in servers.

YOU and the other whiners here say Apple is not correct. But since the drive manufacturer and one of the other major server manufacturers agrees with Apple, you're wrong.

 

[AidenShaw]

Sadly, that's not true. I can't see anything in your posts which is correct.

Apple says it's a server grade drive. Hitachi says it's a server drive. Apple uses it in servers. Dell uses it in servers.

YOU and the other whiners here say Apple is not correct. But since the drive manufacturer and one of the other major server manufacturers agrees with Apple, you're wrong.

Can you even read? It doesn't seem like it.

I've said quite a few times that if Apple would define the term "server grade" to mean "at least 10^6 hour MTBF" that it would be the end of the discussion.

I have not said that the Deskstar doesn't meet the 10^6 definition (since Hitachi doesn't give out an MTBF rating for the Deskstar, that's hard to say).

I have been saying that the problem is that Apple has not defined the term "server grade", and that reasonable people might assume that they mean one of the enterprise/server grade drives sold by various manufacturers.

The original post was from someone like that, who expected an "Ultrastar" server drive rather than a "Deskstar" drive in the Time Capsule. This is completely reasonable, based on mapping the Apple term "server grade" to the two main flavors of drives offered.

How can you say that I'm saying that a Deskstar is not a "server grade" drive, when most of my posts are complaining that "server grade" is a term that is undefined in the Apple literature?

It seems that you utterly fail to comprehend the written word.

And I didn't even mention that annoying fact that Apple is in fact using the Barracuda ES "enterprise server grade" 1.2 million hour MTBF drive for the 500 GB Time Capsule.

And, I'm blown away that "Dell is doing it too" is being claimed by Apple fanbois. ROTFLOL when Dell is held up as an example of high quality.

 

[tony-in-japan]

The pride to be ‘right’ clouds the ability to see (or read) things clearly...

I am baffled and amused by this thread that has become ‘comic’ to say the least.

Which part of: ‘Time Capsule 1TB uses a Hitachi Deskstar which is applicable to be used as a Networked Storage Server‘ don’t people understand?