Time Capsule Not Using Server-Grade Hard Drive As Advertised?

[Tosser]

Exactly, I am so sick of all these people who are trying to bring down Apple's name. To be honest the fact that this thread grown so long reeks of a conspiracy by all the PC manufacturers to defame Apple's good reputation.

Wow, that is paranoia, if I ever saw it!
How can anyone think something that absurd? I guess fanboyism has reached a new all-time high.

PCs are PCs, Macs are Macs. What is a server to the PC platform is not a server to a Mac.

Any other revisionist all-is-relative thinking you'd like to share, all in order to defend your favourite company?

"Pee Cee Servers" running operating systems like FreeBSD may advertise uptimes of like 99.99999%, but that is the acceptable uptime for a "Pee Cee", for a Mac it is different. Which is why we have weekly downtimes at the Apple Store every week new products are added. It is all still good, we still have 90% uptime on the Mac platform anyway, and for a Mac it is unsurpassed.

Haha, yes, indeed

I for one am glad to get the very same high quality hard drives that are used in the XServe in my Time Capsule. Only Apple can deliver such high quality dedication and commitment to their customers.

What high quality? Those desktop drives they call "server grade"? The bad build quality? Leopard bugs? Crappy screens an freezes on just about any hardware with a screen? What "commitment"?

You can claim that the hard disks used in the XServes are no different from those used in Dell desktops, but I beg to differ. That Apple logo on the drives still represents a mark of quality to me.

Ah yes – blind brand loyalty is something Apple is the king of producing. I can see why the quality of Apple products has been going down in the last five years: People choose to buy the products even if it sucks. Because it's more about owning the brand, rather than the tool or toy.

 

[syndalis]

I think our new cry will be...

APPLE LIED

PEOPLES DATA DIED!!!​

Your hands are red Apple - with our lost bits! I think the question we need to be asking is...would Apple back up Apple.com data on one of these? I think not.

would joe home user with a macbook air spend over a grand on a backup solution? I think not.

I am using time capsule, and I could not be happier. If this is the drive they are putting in some of their server lines, then it fits their statement. Plain and simple. But I really don't care WHAT HDD is in there; I just want wireless backup, and I got it.

 

[Wild-Bill]

????? Huh?

I for one am glad to get the very same high quality hard drives that are used in the XServe in my Time Capsule. Only Apple can deliver [blah........]

That Apple logo on the drives still represents a mark of quality to me.

What? I don't know what kind of hard drive your Time Capsule shipped with (if you even do own one), but I know in my Powerbook the logo says SEAGATE. And the logo on the drive that shipped with my Mac Pro says WESTERN DIGITAL.

Was there a BTO option I missed that says "Add a magic sprinkle of Apple Quality Fairy Dust to Your Hard Drive.............$49.99" ?

If I leave my garbage out by the curb but slap an Apple sticker on the garbage can, would you want to buy it because it represented quality to you?

 

[Yobnaf]

What? I don't know what kind of hard drive your Time Capsule shipped with (if you even do own one), but I know in my Powerbook the logo says SEAGATE. And the logo on the drive that shipped with my Mac Pro says WESTERN DIGITAL.

Was there a BTO option I missed that says "Add a magic sprinkle of Apple Quality Fairy Dust to Your Hard Drive.............$49.99" ?

If I leave my garbage out by the curb but slap an Apple sticker on the garbage can, would you want to buy it because it represented quality to you?

My understanding is that these are special drives that Hitachi manufactured for Apple's custom order. Just as early iPod drives have a customised Apple logo on their labels, so too are the drives used in the Time Capsules made to Apple's precise specifications.

Why else would Apple use these drives in their servers if they are not server quality? Just as even Intel would bend over backwards to produce a customised processor for Apple to put in their Macbook Airs, how much harder is it for Hitachi to manufacture an extra high quality drive for Apple to put into their Time Capsules?

Processors are way harder to customise than hard drives, and even that has been done for Apple.

Apple can do anything

 

[matticus008]

o Apple never describes what "server-grade" actually means in the product documentation - we merely have one interview where an Apple talking head says that it means "more than 10^6 hour MTBF"

So you admit you have no factual basis to expect an enterprise-grade drive.

HGST has the "Deskstar" for consumer/entry server, and the "Ultrastar"

Precisely. And what clever turn of phrase makes that server not a server?

It is not unreasonable to assume that Apple's term "server-grade" would refer to one of these variously named higher reliability offerings

And there's nothing to suggest that the Deskstar doesn't meet this standard. 50,000 start/stop cycles is better than your typical consumer drive. Since Hitachi puts it in its selector for all server uses except enterprise servers, it's really quite a stretch to claim that the drives it markets for use in servers aren't really good enough for servers, unless you're claiming that Hitachi is intentionally sabotaging its small business and mid-range server customers.

Arguments about Deskstars shipping in XServes are irrelevant - that only shows that Apple is using desktop drives in its entry-level server (don't kid yourself that the XServe is "server-grade"

Oh. So the xServe isn't a server. Hitachi should probably also tell these guys that they're not running servers:

"Hitachi Global Storage Technologies (Hitachi GST) today announced that SoftJoys – a provider of computing server equipment and services in Russia – is using Hitachi GST’s one terabyte* hard drives in its high-capacity data storage servers. The Hitachi Deskstar™ 7K1000 hard drive will be used by SoftJoys to develop and launch data storage servers with a total capacity of 24 terabytes. The data storage servers are intended for data streaming applications."

"Enterprise" vs "Server" is also not relevant. Drives come in "good" and "better", with various names for the two. Saying that "server-grade" does not mean "enterprise" is a hollow argument when Apple does not define "server-grade".

If we grant your premise, then saying it does mean "enterprise" is equally hollow. Failing to meet your burden of proof, Hitachi can continue marketing them for servers. Of course, "server" and "enterprise server" aren't synonymous, so there goes your premise and thus your argument.

Arguments about Hitachi claiming that Deskstars are suitable for low-cost servers are also irrelevant as to the point of deception - any of the consumer drives are suitable for low-cost servers

That's not true. Seagate doesn't market its non-Barracuda line for servers of any kind (or Maxtor-branded units). Western Digital doesn't market anything below Caviar SE for servers of any kind. Fujitsu's MWH2 line is suitable for servers, but not enterprise servers.

If it comes to a class-action suit - the question will be "would a reasonable buyer expect a drive named 'Desk' in a device advertised as having a 'server-grade' drive?" The answer is "no", and Apple will have to pay.

That's a nice fairy tale and all, but here in the real world, the question would be: does the manufacture recommend the drives for server use? Does the drive appear in servers regularly? Does the drive exceed the economy consumer models in MTBF? Is there a difference between a server and an enterprise server, and are products clearly marketed to reflect that division?

The answer to all of the above is "yes". Will a reasonable person feel deceived that they did not get an enterprise drive? No. Does an average customer know the difference between a server and an enterprise server? No. Does the average IT professional? Absolutely.

 

[Wild-Bill]

My understanding is that these are special drives that Hitachi manufactured for Apple's custom order.

Oh, I see........ it is your understanding. And your proof is what exactly?

Apple can do anything

Ok, clearly you are either an extremely misguided fanboy, or Apple is paying you to post praise for the time capsule and its "extra high-quality-because-it-has-an-apple-sticker-on-it hard drive".




I'm done with this thread. Obviously this is someone who's getting a kick out of either
a) being a fanboy
or
b) pretending to be a fanboy, who is perhaps in fact another forum member

Y o b n a f.............f a n b o Y

Mods, you may want to take note of the IP and see if it belongs to more than one forum member....

 

[pondie84]

Just because you acknowledge 'server grade' means 'a grade of drives used in servers' doesn't make you a 'fanboy' (or fangirl if people are willing to accept they exist).

Why is it that people think they can win every argument just by flinging 'fanboy' around.

In this case you can acknowledge that technically Apple have rightly claimed that the Time Capsule includes a 'server grade' hard drive and acknowledge that it's hardly the most useful term and does not engender trust in its consumer base.

They're a business and if they choose to market their products in a potentially misleading way (albeit still accurate) then they have to deal with the heat if they get misunderstood.

 

[Wild-Bill]

Um, ................

Why is it that people think they can win every argument just by flinging 'fanboy' around.

Maybe, just maybe I'm doing it because the person I am disagreeing with is named fanboy, spelled backwards.

 

[skunk]

Maybe, just maybe I'm doing it because the person I am disagreeing with is named fanboy, spelled backwards.

Maybe, just maybe you should lighten up.

 

[besson3c]

Perhaps what really is at the heart of this matter is what can be considered a server.

I mean, some people can get away with using an old G4 tower as a server. In this case, the G4 *functions* as a server.

When I think of a server, I think of an enterprise class server with enterprise class hardware, not just consumer hardware put into a server form factor like the XServe or a Dell small business server. I conceed that yes, technically these servers are sold and accepted as servers, but let's just get real here: there is nothing at all special about the hardware that ships in an XServe. Apple added in the little tag line about how the drive is server grade so that people can go "oh wow, it must be better than just your garden variety drive".

As it turns out, this is manipulative, and the drive included is just your ordinary garden variety drive. The tag line is manipulative, and some might say that manipulative = deceptive.

 

[Digital Skunk]

Wtf?!?!?

Perhaps what really is at the heart of this matter is what can be considered a server.

I mean, some people can get away with using an old G4 tower as a server. In this case, the G4 *functions* as a server.

When I think of a server, I think of an enterprise class server with enterprise class hardware, not just consumer hardware put into a server form factor like the XServe or a Dell small business server. I conceed that yes, technically these servers are sold and accepted as servers, but let's just get real here: there is nothing at all special about the hardware that ships in an XServe. Apple added in the little tag line about how the drive is server grade so that people can go "oh wow, it must be better than just your garden variety drive".

As it turns out, this is manipulative, and the drive included is just your ordinary garden variety drive. The tag line is manipulative, and some might say that manipulative = deceptive.

So the Xeon chips and all the hardware and Apple support that go with the Xserve makes it consumer?????

I am sorry, I have to agree with Wild-Bill and the others that obviously know that Apple goofed, and that the TC doesn't have what it advertised... and that a lot of posters are either lost, or coming up with their own opinions to backup the way they feel.

If you honestly consider the Xserve to be "consumer" or have "consumer" parts then you are just lost. The same goes with the Dell small business servers which I have worked with in the past. The Dell tower servers may not be enterprise servers yes, but the Xserve is as much a server as the enterprise HP and Dell blade servers are.

Seriously now... soon we won't be calling Apple's only real desktop the MacPro a workstation because "I just don't think of it as a workstation..."

 

[besson3c]

So the Xeon chips and all the hardware and Apple support that go with the Xserve makes it consumer?????

I am sorry, I have to agree with Wild-Bill and the others that obviously know that Apple goofed, and that the TC doesn't have what it advertised... and that a lot of posters are either lost, or coming up with their own opinions to backup the way they feel.

If you honestly consider the Xserve to be "consumer" or have "consumer" parts then you are just lost. The same goes with the Dell small business servers which I have worked with in the past. The Dell tower servers may not be enterprise servers yes, but the Xserve is as much a server as the enterprise HP and Dell blade servers are.

Seriously now... soon we won't be calling Apple's only real desktop the MacPro a workstation because "I just don't think of it as a workstation..."

XServes have gotten a lot beefier recently in offering more redundancies, but they are not really enterprise class servers. I don't know anything about Dell's offerings, so I didn't mean to offer a direct comparison, but beefier enterprise class servers offer more hot swappable parts, fast SAS/SCSI enterprise class drives, console access, etc.

 

[Digital Skunk]

XServes have gotten a lot beefier recently in offering more redundancies, but they are not really enterprise class servers. I don't know anything about Dell's offerings, so I didn't mean to offer a direct comparison, but beefier enterprise class servers offer more hot swappable parts, fast SAS/SCSI enterprise class drives, console access, etc.

I agree with you on this, hope I wasn't too fanatic in the last post. But there aren't much consumer parts in the Xserve. I do wish they had more drive bays for it, but the three they offer in the form factor (that Apple form over function thing again) are okay...

Users can get the RAID card and put three SAS drives in it (enterprise class) and just about all of the parts are hot swappable if you have more than one Xserve running, there hasn't been a way that I know of to pull a DIMM out of a server or any other machine while it's running.

I know the Xserve isn't at the top of the list for enterprise servers but it's not made out of consumer parts or even intended for small business storage, it's pretty capable. As a side note I assume the reason Apple discontinued the Xserve RAID because the competition has had more robust systems for some time, and Apple didn't feel they needed to put the R&D into updating the RAID system, so they are recommending a 3rd party company.

p.s. I am speaking this all from knowledge of the system, and not experience. I have only worked with Dell servers, and a crappy conglomeration of PCs that have been made to function like a server.

 

[Blue Velvet]

In all the years I've spent here at MacRumors, this is without doubt the biggest storm in a teacup I've ever had the misfortune to read. A real pedant's paradise where endless minutaie can be dissected a thousand different ways, and no-one is really right.

As others have clearly pointed out:

1) An enterprise setup and drive is going to cost way more than this product's price.

2) 'Server-grade' is a definition that's entirely elastic. If Hitachi market the drive as server-grade, then Apple have done no wrong.

3) 99% of the people here wouldn't notice the difference anyway.


This pointless squabbling over the smallest of details and then claiming that Apple have somehow cheated you out of something which most of you weren't even going to buy is a real blot on this site.

More angels? Queue up over here, I'm just organising more pins...

 

[AidenShaw]

Ithere hasn't been a way that I know of to pull a DIMM out of a server or any other machine while it's running.

Compaq Adds "Hot-Swap" Memory To Servers http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,32444,00.asp

The ProLiants also feature RAID-like memory (the DIMMS are redundant, so a memory error won't be seen) and hot spare memory.

Search for "hot swap CPU" as well, that's not uncommon in higher end servers.

The XServe started as a joke (no ECC memory, no redundant power supplies), now it's fairly representative for a low end entry server.

This pointless squabbling ... is a real blot on this site.

Surprised to hear a moderator complain about something that's generating page hits !

So, if the 1Mhr MTBF information was included in the tech specs, you would be cool with that?

Actually, yes. If "server-grade" had a footnote that said "at least 10^6 hour MTBF", just like the footnote that "a GB is one billion", then there would be no way to claim deceptive marketing. (See http://www.apple.com/timecapsule/specs.html)

And, to repeat, the deception comes from a reader making the reasonable assumption that by "server grade" Apple is referring to a disk drive makers "better" line. Disks come in two flavors, so if Apple is touting that they are using "server flavor" drives, then it is reasonable to assume that Apple is using what the disk makers call their server lines.

The "deception" is that Apple is using an undefined term, and there is a reasonable basis for confusion.

All the arguments about which drives are in the XServes are irrelevant - the question is whether the ad copy and specs for the time capsule are ambiguous in a way that a reasonable buyer might feel surprised to find a Desktop drive inside.

 

[besson3c]

I agree with you on this, hope I wasn't too fanatic in the last post. But there aren't much consumer parts in the Xserve. I do wish they had more drive bays for it, but the three they offer in the form factor (that Apple form over function thing again) are okay...

Users can get the RAID card and put three SAS drives in it (enterprise class) and just about all of the parts are hot swappable if you have more than one Xserve running, there hasn't been a way that I know of to pull a DIMM out of a server or any other machine while it's running.

I know the Xserve isn't at the top of the list for enterprise servers but it's not made out of consumer parts or even intended for small business storage, it's pretty capable. As a side note I assume the reason Apple discontinued the Xserve RAID because the competition has had more robust systems for some time, and Apple didn't feel they needed to put the R&D into updating the RAID system, so they are recommending a 3rd party company.

p.s. I am speaking this all from knowledge of the system, and not experience. I have only worked with Dell servers, and a crappy conglomeration of PCs that have been made to function like a server.

Its drives are consumer level drives, as SATA drives generally are, no?

There is such a thing as hot swappable RAM, some of our HP servers here have that.

 

[whooleytoo]

Things I hate:

- Companies that use vague, meaningless marketing phrases. "New and improved". "Now 25% better". "Server grade storage".

- People who complain about being denied precise product features without knowing precisely what was promised nor precisely what they're actually getting.

- People who complain about whining on Macrumors, and yet miss the irony.

- People who publish smart-ass "things I love/hate" lists in heated threads like this one (that's soooo '90s); especially the recursive ones which mention the list itself as one of the things they hate. Grrr.

 

[Tosser]

Things I hate:

- Companies that use vague, meaningless marketing phrases. "New and improved". "Now 25% better". "Server grade storage".

- People who complain about being denied precise product features without knowing precisely what was promised nor precisely what they're actually getting.

- People who complain about whining on Macrumors, and yet miss the irony.

- People who publish smart-ass "things I love/hate" lists in heated threads like this one (that's soooo '90s); especially the recursive ones which mention the list itself as one of the things they hate. Grrr.

Neat: double (or triple?) referral!!

 

[SiliconAddict]

FUD means "fear, uncertainty and doubt." This technique is intended to cause buyer remorse in advance, to cause you to not buy a product now or at all because it might not perform up to the advertised specifications, or because the company who made it won't be around to support it, or because something better might be coming along tomorrow. I've never known Apple to practice FUD. In fact, if there's any FUD going around about Time Capsule...

Fear: That the drive will die, but with the wonders of server grade you are protected.

Uncertainty: Its server grade...does anyone know what this is? Until Apple clarified and MR updated the article....nope.

Doubt: I doubt that anyone who really is eying TC really knows anything about server hardware so "server grade" make is a wonderful marketing tool.

I stand by my FUD label. And understand that I would be slamming ANY company; MS, Apple, Toshiba, Gateway, Dell, et al, who plays these games. I hate marketing speak. Call it one of my MANY pet peeves.

 

[tony-in-japan]

Good morning everybody... Still at it!???? Yawn... off back to beddie-boos again... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

 

[Digital Skunk]

Its drives are consumer level drives, as SATA drives generally are, no?

There is such a thing as hot swappable RAM, some of our HP servers here have that.

But you have a SAS option. And SATA is as consumer as the drive in the TC is as enterprise. A lot of enterprise servers have SATA drives in them, they do offer the highest capacity so far.

I read the info about hot swappable CPUs and DIMMS.

I would have to agree with Blue Velvet on this one. TC isn't for the pro with a 4TB MacPro system under their desk, and most consumers won't know the difference. I have family members with Time Machine that need to backup, and instead of buying a drive for each of them, TC will allow them to back up their G5 iMac, 24" iMac, and soon to be AirBook all on one drive.

My biggest concern is the warranty for TC, and how long I can expect the drive to last, but as I am thinking, once the warranty goes up in a year or so, the I won't care about the drive that much because I can just replace it with a real server/enterprise class drive of same, or larger capacity.

 

[kuwisdelu]

Wow.

This argument is pretty amusing for those of us on the sidelines, at least.

I for one am buying a 1TB Time Capsule and being happy with it. I don't need an "enterprise-grade" drive. I need affordable wireless backup with good reliability, and I think it's hard to argue that TC doesn't offer that. Call me dumb. Call me blind. Hell, call me a fanboy; I don't care. But call me a happy fanboy.

 

[aquajet]

And, to repeat, the deception comes from a reader making the reasonable assumption that by "server grade" Apple is referring to a disk drive makers "better" line. Disks come in two flavors, so if Apple is touting that they are using "server flavor" drives, then it is reasonable to assume that Apple is using what the disk makers call their server lines.

Browsing through some product literature, it seems to me that there is more to the story than just simple "good" and "better" product flavors when you mention "consumer" vs. "enterprise". More than anything else, "enterprise" seems to represent a specific feature set which can include things like spindle speed, latency, interfaces (SAS, FC), redundancy, multi-user performance, and probably many more things that are tailored to a specific intended use -- not just the extremely vague MTBF rating. Within the "better" category, there are also good and better lines, for example the 10k and 15k rpm drives offered by Seagate.

In any event, it now seems as if "server grade" specifically means a mechanism with better MTBF. You're just going to have to accept that. Hopefully, nobody is confused anymore. And I really hope that nobody actually thought Apple were marketing something akin to a Honda Accord with a LeMans engine. That's a bad place to be in!

Also - as you know, the Deskstar was orgininally marketed by IBM as a product providing a good value for desktop PC applications. Hitachi now owns the Deskstar name, and Deskstar line has grown to include many different models which are specifically marketed for many different applications, including low and mid level server use. Basically, the Deskstar has moved on to bigger and better things. Your argument that the word "desk" in the product name somehow signifies that it is unsuitable for use in the Time Capsule is kind of silly.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Fear: That the drive will die, but with the wonders of server grade you are protected.

Uncertainty: Its server grade...does anyone know what this is? Until Apple clarified and MR updated the article....nope.

Doubt: I doubt that anyone who really is eying TC really knows anything about server hardware so "server grade" make is a wonderful marketing tool.

I stand by my FUD label. And understand that I would be slamming ANY company; MS, Apple, Toshiba, Gateway, Dell, et al, who plays these games. I hate marketing speak. Call it one of my MANY pet peeves.

Fear: Creating the impression that these drives are somehow substandard and are subject to failure because they are not what Apple has never said they would be.

Uncertainly: An effort to elevate vague and trivial technical issues and semantics to a level of transcendent, even moral, importance.

Doubt: Unsubstantiated questions raised about Apple's basic motives and ethics, creating the impression that customers who buy one of these products are being cheated.

The message: You should be sufficiently confused by arcane technical arguments such that you won't buy this product. That's the entire method and purpose of FUD, in a nutshell.

Yes, I see a lot of FUD here, of the dictionary-definition kind. None of it is coming from Apple.

 

[AidenShaw]

Browsing through some product literature, it seems to me that there is more to the story than just simple "good" and "better" product flavors when you mention "consumer" vs. "enterprise". More than anything else, "enterprise" seems to represent a specific feature set which can include things like spindle speed, latency, interfaces (SAS, FC), redundancy, multi-user performance, and probably many more things that are tailored to a specific intended use -- not just the extremely vague MTBF rating. Within the "better" category, there are also good and better lines, for example the 10k and 15k rpm drives offered by Seagate.

Don't try to confuse the issue by bringing high end SCSI/SAS/FC disks into the argument.

Most of these manufacturers have two lines of SATA drives, a consumer line and a server line with higher MTBF and warranty. These are the "good" and "better" SATA lines.

In any event, it now seems as if "server grade" specifically means a mechanism with better MTBF. You're just going to have to accept that.

I do accept that, but until Apple clarifies their tech specs and ad copy, Apple's use of the undefined term "server grade" can be misleading. It would be reasonable to believe that when Apple says "server grade", they are referring to the disk maker's "better" line of server SATA drives.

Your argument that the word "desk" in the product name somehow signifies that it is unsuitable for use in the Time Capsule is kind of silly.

Actually, I have never said that the Deskstar is unsuitable for the Time Capsule.

I have said that Apple's use of the undefined term "server grade" would reasonably lead one to expect to find the 1.2 million hour MTBF Ultrastar drive in the TC. Note that Apple does seem to use the 1.2 million hour MTBF Barracuda ES drive in the 500 GB model.

If Apple would say "at least 1 million hour MTBF" in their ads and specs, then there would be no problem with deception - nobody would expect a 1.2 million hour MTBF drive.