Time Capsule Not Using Server-Grade Hard Drive As Advertised?

[besson3c]

Since when does its being used in an XServe support the argument that it is a server grade drive? XServes (like Dell small business servers) are basically machines built with consumer grade hardware that are suitable for small business and non-enterprise server usage. This should not come as a surprise, if the XServe were truely an enterprise class server it could not be sold as cheaply as it is.

For Apple's target audience for TC, as has been said here, this is not a big deal (nor should it be a surprise given the costs of actual server class HDDs), but this was a dumb move on Apple's part, and definitely deceptive advertising.

With all due respect to everybody here, defending Apple and this drive being a server grade drive is just ridiculous and Apple fanboyish. You would not find this drive in a server built with server-grade hardware, period.

 

[stevegmu]

Xserve is a server. TC has the same drive as Xserve, therefore TC has a server-class drive. I don't get the confusion. Maybe Apple should be sued for calling Xserve a server, then.

 

[TMay]

Excellent post, AidenShaw.

After going back through the thread I am amazed at the amount of Apple apologists and the lengths they go to in order to come to Apple's rescue and use argumentative semantics when they have no leg to stand on.

It's the apologists that give normal Mac users a bad name. I don't know if these people have their life savings sunk in Apple stock or they are truly bamboozled by Steve's RDF. This thread proves that, among those apologists, common sense is never a common virtue...



m.o.t.o.

I was born at night but not last night.

I've been using the mac since the 128, and that after ordering it within a week of announcement. I'm about as normal a mac user as you can get, and I even own PC's for workstation class software.

So here's my opinion.

Most of you posting here haven't a need of enterprise class hard drives. Far as I can tell, the only thing you would get anyway is a tiny increase in reliability and a warranty of 5 years, and Apple is only going to warrant Time Capsule for a year anyway.

The fact that the 1TB drive used in Time Capsule have a .14% decrease in reliability in an average year even against the drive in the 500GB version certainly wouldn't statistically effect more than one drive in a hundred in the typical lifespan of 5-7 years for this device. That number is based on the 1Mhr MTBF given the the product engineer at Apple.

Meanwhile, I wait for an actual argument of the benefits of an enterprise class drive for this consumer device, because I haven't seen one yet. All I have seen are arguments that Apple has stolen your mojo for daring to market that Time Capsule has "server class" hard drive, a term they dare coin.

 

[waffle911]

So I realized that some people were complaining that Time Capsule only has a 1-year warranty, while the typical hard drive has between 3-5. Have you considered that th TC is not just a HD? It's an APEBS as well, which is also limited to a 1-year warranty. It's pretty much the standard for WiFi base stations. Therefore they cannot warrant it for longer than the soonest-to-fail components of the device. This, in turn, is also immensely stupid. Suppose the HD lasts like it's supposed to, but the WiFi dies 2 years in? Then it's nothing more than a very expensive external hard drive. But at least you can transfer data before replacing it.

Also, "Server Grade" is a completely relative term. They use it in servers, the manufacturer supports its use in servers, guess what. It is server grade. It's the difference between a Hummer H1 and the military HMMWV. The drivetrain is the same, but the military version has extra armor and armaments for unfriendly environments, much like enterprise class hard drives deal with entire rooms of heat-generating server equipment 24-7, but smaller servers are just fine without the extra equipment.

 

[AidenShaw]

"server-grade" is an Apple neologism

TC has the same drive as Xserve, therefore TC has a server-class drive.

Why can't these same facts mean that "XServer has a Desktop drive, therefore the XServe is a low-cost entry-level server"?

Putting a Desktop drive into a 1U entry server doesn't turn the Desktop drive into a server drive, it simply demotes the 1U server into a low-cost entry server. The XServe is a joke among x64 servers, it's a pretty face on mediocre hardware.

Also, "Server Grade" is a completely relative term.

Actually, no.

"Server grade" is a new term invented by Apple, which apparently means that drives named "Desk" can be sold as designed for servers.

And, if Apple doesn't quickly clarify what "server grade" means in regards to the Time Capsule, it could turn into an expensive class action suit for deceptive marketing.

-

I'm blown away by the Apple fanbois who will defend anything that comes from Cupertino marketing - no matter how lame or misleading or deceptive the Apple marketing is...

 

[besson3c]

Aidenshaw is absolutely right.

Why do you guys feel the need to defend Apple anyway? Do you defend other companies like you defend Apple?

 

[stevegmu]

Maybe there should be a class-action suit in regards to Time Machine. After all, the name implies it is a time-machine, yet, try as I might, I have been unable to travel back to Nov. 5, 1955.


If a drive is used in a server, any server, it is a server-grade- drive, unless, of course, there is a recognized industry standard which server-drives must conform to, and the one in TC doesn't.
Legally, if a drive from an iPod is used in a server, Apple could advertise the iPod as having a server-grade-drive.

 

[TMay]

Why can't these same facts mean that "XServer has a Desktop drive, therefore the XServe is a low-cost entry-level server"?

Putting a Desktop drive into a 1U entry server doesn't turn the Desktop drive into a server drive, it simply demotes the 1U server into a low-cost entry server.





Actually, no.

"Server grade" is a new term invented by Apple, which apparently means that drives named "Desk" can be sold as designed for servers.

And, if Apple doesn't quickly clarify what "server grade" means in regards to the Time Capsule, it could turn into an expensive class action suit for deceptive marketing.

-

I'm blown away by the Apple fanbois who will defend anything that comes from Cupertino marketing - no matter how lame or misleading or deceptive the Apple marketing is...

They did clarify what it meant.

Apple server grade: 1Mhr MTBF

Hitachi enterprise grade: 1.2Mhr MTBF and certs

"Chulani clarified that the "server-grade" drives in a Time Capsule are the same 7200 rpm drives used for Apple's Xserve servers, and that they have a higher mean time between failure (MTBF) rating than consumer drives. The MTBF for server-grade drives is often 1 million hours (114 years), which is a measure of probability; in this case, that out of a set of drives with similar properties, an extremely high percentage will still be fully functional after several years."

So, if Hitachi named this Deskstar variant that Apple uses "Servstar" with the exact same spec, everything would be cool for you?

 

[AidenShaw]

If a drive is used in a server, any server, it is a server-grade- drive, unless, of course, there is a recognized industry standard which server-drives must conform to, and the one in TC doesn't.

Legally, if a drive from an iPod is used in a server, Apple could advertise the iPod as having a server-grade-drive.

No, you aren't correct.

The laws go beyond strict interpretations of obscure phrases in the PDF files on the websites, and whether drive X is installed in model Y of company Z's computers.

Disk drive companies have "consumer"and "server" product lines. Putting a consumer drive in a low-end entry server does not make it a "server" drive.

 

[AidenShaw]

They did clarify what it meant.

NO THEY DID NOT.

A random web interview with an Apple talking head is not relevant unless that information appears in the Apple product pages.

It has not - the Apple pages are still deceptive.

Why do the fanbois defend Apple even when it is clear that Apple is in the wrong?

 

[TMay]

NO THEY DID NOT.

A random web interview with an Apple talking head is not relevant unless that information appears in the Apple product pages.

It has not - the Apple pages are still deceptive.

Why do the fanbois defend Apple even when it is clear that Apple is on the wrong?

So, if the 1Mhr MTBF information was included in the tech specs, you would be cool with that?

 

[stevegmu]

No, you aren't correct.

The laws go beyond strict interpretations of obscure phrases in the PDF files on the websites, and whether drive X is installed in model Y of company Z's computers.

Disk drive companies have "consumer"and "server" product lines. Putting a consumer drive in a low-end entry server does not make it a "server" drive.

Not sure why you think the Hitachi is strictly consumer-grade, since the pdf states it can be used in network storage servers.

What is the legal definition of a consumer, and server product? If a server sits on a desk, is it relegated to being a consumer product? If it is on a StudioTech rack, is the unit in question elevated to server-grade?
I have a Viking oven and range. They are sold and advertised as commercial units, yet a restaurant is none too likely to use the models I have. Looks like it's time for a lawsuit!

 

[Mindflux]

Has anyone asked or said what is so special about the "Apple Firmware" that the drive label mentions having?

 

[Fillmore]

What is all this uproar for?

There are a lot of hard drives out there, ranging from less to more reliable.

Steve Jobs wanted to let people know that Apple would put a good hard drive in Time Capsule, something even worthy of being used in a server (like XServe)—hence the server-grade expression. And that’s exactly what Apple did.

No deception, no confusion. So there’s no basis to all this fuss.

 

[TMay]

NO THEY DID NOT.

A random web interview with an Apple talking head is not relevant unless that information appears in the Apple product pages.

It has not - the Apple pages are still deceptive.

Why do the fanbois defend Apple even when it is clear that Apple is in the wrong?

How about a briefing with an Apple Product Manager?

"In a briefing, senior product manager Jai Chulani explained that AirPort Utility 5.3, which ships with Time Capsule, includes new options for managing the internal drive. The drive can be formatted via AirPort Utility, with an option to format securely. AirPort Utility 5.3 also adds setup features that enable you to migrate settings from an existing base station into the Time Capsule; to set up a dual-band network, with an older base station operating at 2.4 GHz and the Time Capsule set to 5 GHz; and to set up a roaming network with multiple base stations connected over Ethernet."

"Chulani clarified that the "server-grade" drives in a Time Capsule are the same 7200 rpm drives used for Apple's Xserve servers, and that they have a higher mean time between failure (MTBF) rating than consumer drives. The MTBF for server-grade drives is often 1 million hours (114 years), which is a measure of probability; in this case, that out of a set of drives with similar properties, an extremely high percentage will still be fully functional after several years."

 

[besson3c]

Maybe there should be a class-action suit in regards to Time Machine. After all, the name implies it is a time-machine, yet, try as I might, I have been unable to travel back to Nov. 5, 1955.


If a drive is used in a server, any server, it is a server-grade- drive, unless, of course, there is a recognized industry standard which server-drives must conform to, and the one in TC doesn't.
Legally, if a drive from an iPod is used in a server, Apple could advertise the iPod as having a server-grade-drive.

Why are you defending Apple?

If you want to play it that way, that Apple is right based on some technicality or semantic argument, is that really how you want Apple to conduct themselves?

Ask 100 computer savvy people what they think when they see this claim and they'll probably say that the drive is a more expensive/higher quality drive than just your plain old ordinary garden variety desktop drive. Do you not find this at least slightly deceptive?

 

[besson3c]

I would still like to know why people here are so reactionary in defending Apple here?

I like Apple, but they are just a company... If you don't find this advertising deceptive, fine, but it is astonishing that this thread has grown to 12 pages of people trying to express why they find this advertising deceptive up against people that feel this overwhelming urge to defend Apple. It's as if these Apple defenders feel personally attacked or something...

 

[drumcat]

Maybe a positive?

Hey guys, just a silver lining thought...

Maybe we're making a definition for a previously ambiguous term? Is a "server-class" drive now officially any drive that has a 10^6h MTBF rating?

I for one would be willing to just accept this as a new norm if that's what we're going for. That's a 114y period, and find that entirely acceptable to 2 sigma. Mission critical it isn't, but that's not the intent of this device, obviously.


So would we agree that 1m h MTBF = "server-class"?

 

[TMay]

Why are you defending Apple?

If you want to play it that way, that Apple is right based on some technicality or semantic argument, is that really how you want Apple to conduct themselves?

Ask 100 computer savvy people what they think when they see this claim and they'll probably say that the drive is a more expensive/higher quality drive than just your plain old ordinary garden variety desktop drive. Do you not find this at least slightly deceptive?

But you want to play it that Apple is wrong based on some technicality or sematic argument. What's the difference other than your point of view?

The product manager, certainly a computer savvy person, gave the spec, said it was better than a consumer drive spec, and said that they are the same drives as used in XServe. Since a computer savvy person would recognize that a 1.2Mhr MTBF spec is what an enterprise drive meets, then I don't have a problem accepting that a 1Mhr MTBF drive would as well be acceptable for a more modest server.

If you have a problem, then you need to state explicitly the reason, and semantics isn't a reason.

 

[Yobnaf]

So if its not considered "server grade", why do they use it in their servers?

Exactly, I am so sick of all these people who are trying to bring down Apple's name. To be honest the fact that this thread grown so long reeks of a conspiracy by all the PC manufacturers to defame Apple's good reputation.

PCs are PCs, Macs are Macs. What is a server to the PC platform is not a server to a Mac. "Pee Cee Servers" running operating systems like FreeBSD may advertise uptimes of like 99.99999%, but that is the acceptable uptime for a "Pee Cee", for a Mac it is different. Which is why we have weekly downtimes at the Apple Store every week new products are added. It is all still good, we still have 90% uptime on the Mac platform anyway, and for a Mac it is unsurpassed.

I for one am glad to get the very same high quality hard drives that are used in the XServe in my Time Capsule. Only Apple can deliver such high quality dedication and commitment to their customers.

You can claim that the hard disks used in the XServes are no different from those used in Dell desktops, but I beg to differ. That Apple logo on the drives still represents a mark of quality to me.

 

[tony-in-japan]

Why do the fanbois defend Apple even when it is clear that Apple is in the wrong?

You know nothing about individual posters, so to just label those who have a contrary opinion to yours automatically makes one a ‘fanboi’? Can someone not just offer their honest opinion about a situation without being labeled as having a hidden agenda, owns Apple stocks, is a ‘fanboi’, etc. The problem is some people confuse ‘personal opinions’ with ‘facts’.

If it is so ‘clear that Apple is in the wrong’ then you should gather all those who agree with you and begin your class-action lawsuit with the utmost confidence in winning. Then Apple will have to re-word their marketing material and you can all shout “hallelujah!” and can carry on with your lives again (or until the next Apple product release).

In the meantime, I’m off to my cosy bed without a care in the world.... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

 

[Full of Win]

I think our new cry will be...

APPLE LIED

PEOPLES DATA DIED!!!​

Your hands are red Apple - with our lost bits! I think the question we need to be asking is...would Apple back up Apple.com data on one of these? I think not.

 

[stevegmu]

Why are you defending Apple?

If you want to play it that way, that Apple is right based on some technicality or semantic argument, is that really how you want Apple to conduct themselves?

Ask 100 computer savvy people what they think when they see this claim and they'll probably say that the drive is a more expensive/higher quality drive than just your plain old ordinary garden variety desktop drive. Do you not find this at least slightly deceptive?

Why are people so upset about this silly issue?

They are right because the drive is also used in a server, thus server-grade, no technicality.

I don't find the truth to be deceptive.

 

[Wild-Bill]

Exactly, I am so sick of all these people who are trying to bring down Apple's name. To be honest the fact that this thread grown so long reeks of a conspiracy by all the PC manufacturers to defame Apple's good reputation.

Yeah, you're right nOObie. You've been a member of MacRumors all of ten minutes, and you've managed to crack the code.

AidenShaw, myself, and others really are PC manufacturers who are posting solely to bring down Apple's good name. The machines in my sig are just made up. I don't really own them. And all my previous 600+ posts were all an elaborate ruse in order to deflect suspicion and mask my true intentions. And, when the moment the truth came out about the morally ambiguous marketing by Apple about Time Machine, I decided to stirke and post in this thread and also bring attention to the fact that by purchasing a Time Machine you are literally throwing two years of hard drive warranty out the window whilst being swayed by dubious "server-grade" marketing fung shui.

I give up, Yobnaf. You found me out. I'm a PC manufacturer just here to launch a smear campaign against Apple. And I decided to do it on a Mac enthusiast site and avoid mainstream media alltogether.

This thread is going downhill fast...... Put down the kool-aid, folks. Really. If you love Apple so much and think they are infallible, why not write their CFO and ask him why he's not using the $18 billion laying around to start a stock buyback to reward loyal stockholders.

 

[IJ Reilly]

And, if Apple doesn't quickly clarify what "server grade" means in regards to the Time Capsule, it could turn into an expensive class action suit for deceptive marketing.

If that was the case, then every company who marketed a product as "new and improved" would have to prove precisely how it was "new" and "improved" or risk being sued.

I'm blown away by the Apple fanbois who will defend anything that comes from Cupertino marketing - no matter how lame or misleading or deceptive the Apple marketing is...

I'm blown away by the cliched insults you're prepared to level at anyone who has the temerity to disagree with you.