Time Capsule Not Using Server-Grade Hard Drive As Advertised?

[AlphaBob]

The fact that you are carrying on over SATA drives, means you don't even know what server grade means. Without any type of redundancy or proper enterprise controller, this can't even be considered a server. So calm yourself.

Quite wrong...I have a RAID 5 Array made from SCSI drives that I've been using for years. And furthermore, nobody said a SATA drive can't be used in a RAID array -- they are frequently. Your assumptions are ill founded.

Clearly this isn't a server, and Apple hasn't claimed that this is a RAID array, nor would I expect it to act as such. They DID however, claim that Time Machine would work with network drives (especially APE attached USB drives) and it wont. Furthermore they are using very fuzzy terms to imply enhanced reliability/performance for their product which simply isn't true. I will grant you they didn't put in the cheapest drive they could find (the WD10EACS, which is a variable rate drive) but they are making up some marketing double-speak that it was "Server Grade". Don't get me wrong, I've used several Hitachi Deskstar drives and like them. But when I built my last RAID array I chose Ultrastar drives, which are clearly the higher quality units from the Hitachi line.

Look I like Apple products, but when they are wrong, they are wrong. You and the rest of the sheep can blindly follow along "Baah, Apple always right, baah"

 

[pondie84]

I have to say, however, I've been pretty disappointed with Air Disk on the AEBS which seems to crash every time I try to transfer a large file to it. Luckily it's not the reason I bought my AEBS but is there a list somewhere of hard drives that actually work well with Air Disk?

 

[hulugu]

...
Look I like Apple products, but when they are wrong, they are wrong. You and the rest of the sheep can blindly follow along "Baah, Apple always right, baah"

This last line is ridiculous and I'm tired of hearing it. Someone's opinion differs from yours and you resort to childish name-calling?

It's clear that there are better drives out there, and it's also clear that Apple used a nebulous term intended to make their product sound better, but that doesn't mean that Apple is do for a lawsuit or that the Time Capsule isn't a useful device for the home user who needs a backup-appliance.

 

[pondie84]

Look I like Apple products, but when they are wrong, they are wrong. You and the rest of the sheep can blindly follow along "Baah, Apple always right, baah"

I don't think anyone here is trying to say Apple are never wrong. They're just saying that 'server grade' is definitely wide open for interpretation. That's marketing for you. You can state anything you want as long as it's tangentially true. Don't believe the spin until the product's out and tested is the safest way to go about things.

 

[AlphaBob]

You don't know what a class action lawsuit is, do you?

A class action lawsuit is a lawsuit brought by one or more individuals against a corporation. Frequently the "damage" to the individual may be quite small, but when you consider the large amount of business that is done by a corporation, the total damages are quite large. Class action lawsuits are frequently brought against complanies that make claims of performance that are not substantiated.

No, I guess I don't know what a class actioin lawsuit is, nor do I understand how it might be applied by someone in this case.

I've stated before that I like Apple products (I have owned many different Apple computers including an original Mac from way back when -- probably older than most people who post on this board). I even own their stock (enough to put many of the youngsters on this board through college). I would MUCH rather have them do well than badly. I see this as a continuing pattern of screw-ups on their part that they would do well to fix up before someone cleans out their bank account.

 

[Benjamindaines]

Angry Nerds....

Listen to yourselves, you're ready to pick up torches and pitchforks and march to the front door of 1 Infinite Loop over this. Time Capsule is a consumer product and doesn't need to have the toppest of the top hard drives, this Deskstar "crap" you're all pissed about is more high end than most of the external hard drives you would be using to back up anyway. Time Capsule simply makes the Time Machine experience wireless.

It's a backup, not your main copy, if the drive fails you get it replaced. If it's out of warranty then you buy a new one, or chances are if you're worrying about it having a "server-grade" hard drive you're tech savvy enough to rip it open and do the replacement yourself (and then you can put it any hard drive you want!). Seriously, calm down.

 

[uNext]

Of course it does not.

Apple the new microsoft? How long till people start realizing the shady side of apple and hate on apple like they do with microsoft?

Come to think about it some apple users will see other companies wrongs but never apples.

Continue the ass rape apple.

If a company promises something whatever happened to following through with that promise?

I just cant believe people are justifying the fact that the end user will not notice teh diffrence between server class and commercial off the shelf hardware.

WOW @ THE APPLE DROIDS. Wrong is wrong no matter how you put it.

 

[pondie84]

Apple the new microsoft? How long till people start realizing the shady side of apple and hate on apple like they do with microsoft?

Here I was thinking that's all people seem to have been doing on this website for as long as I can remember. Remember when the ipod was going to bring about the end of the world?

 

[AlphaBob]

It's clear that there are better drives out there, and it's also clear that Apple used a nebulous term intended to make their product sound better, but that doesn't mean that Apple is do for a lawsuit or that the Time Capsule isn't a useful device for the home user who needs a backup-appliance.

Never said it wasn't. I actually think the idea was quite smart. It is VERY useful for backing up home computers, the vast majority of which are never backed up in the first place. I have no issue with Time Capsule or Time Machine. Both are great ideas and products as far as they go.

I only have issue with the statements made in public and on Apple Storefront Web Site that are soliciting sales (pre-orders) of the equipment that are retracted after the product ships. If Apple had originally said Time Machine is designed to back up computers using USB attached drives or the Time Capsule only, I would have NO issue. If Apple had originally said nothing about the type of hard-drive used in the Time Capsule, I would have NO issue.

 

[pondie84]

I only have issue with the statements made in public and on Apple Storefront Web Site that are soliciting sales (pre-orders) of the equipment that are retracted after the product ships.

Have the comments been retracted though? Apple could still claim they are using a 'server grade' HD. Has reference to it been removed from their website?

 

[uNext]

Never said it wasn't. I actually think the idea was quite smart. It is VERY useful for backing up home computers, the vast majority of which are never backed up in the first place. I have no issue with Time Capsule or Time Machine. Both are great ideas and products as far as they go.

I only have issue with the statements made in public and on Apple Storefront Web Site that are soliciting sales (pre-orders) of the equipment that are retracted after the product ships. If Apple had originally said Time Machine is designed to back up computers using USB attached drives or the Time Capsule only, I would have NO issue. If Apple had originally said nothing about the type of hard-drive used in the Time Capsule, I would have NO issue.

Exactly.

Apple is a bully that will continue to try to take your money anyway it can until you step to him and prove that you are no sucker.

Amazing how apple as of lately have gotten worse then the redmond guys. They are actually making them look pretty soft lately.

With releasing half ass products only to make money while they release exactly what they had in mind. (AEBS ANYONE)

NO GIGABIT-MONTHS LATER WITH GIGABIT THEN TIME CAPSULE? wow it is so clear what their initial roadmap was heading to.
Next the keyboard and macbook air. 3 different price markets.

 

[thingy]

"Server-grade" is just like "Vista capable"

If a consumer is comparing Time Capsule to other options, "server grade" is clearly misleading. Other USB hard drives (ie. My Book, LaCie Porsche, etc) don't stipulate "server-grade"; and if someone was to actually research hard drives, they'll clearly see that there are two classes of hard drives, the normal kind (ie. Deskstar) and the enterprise server kind (ie. Ultrastar).

At that point, the consumer, trying to figure out which is the best deal, would reasonably assume that "server-grade" meant Apple was using the "better" kind of hard drive and not just a normal one, since they're going to the trouble of specifying it... at which point Time Capsule looks like a better deal. The 1TB Ultrastar costs $350 vs. the Deskstar's $270 (at Newegg.com) making Time Capsule look like it's getting $80 of additional value, which could sway someone that was considering going the cheap route of a standalone USB drive.

I don't see how anyone (except sycophants still wrapped in the RDF) could not see that that's misleading at the very least. Whether or not the higher-grade drive is worth the extra 80 bucks is irrelevant, the point is it looks that there's additional value that you're actually not receiving. Is it worth all the whining? Maybe, maybe not, but certainly when a company that people admire engages in petty deception and then engages in word parsing, it becomes less admirable. Which explains why there's so much complaining from those that are disappointed from their "hero", and so much rabid defense from those that don't want to admit their "hero" is imperfect.

In this case, Apple's "Server-grade" seems in the spirit of Microsoft's "Vista-capable". Perhaps technically accurate, but misleading if you look at it with a common sense point of view.

 

[AlphaBob]

Have the comments been retracted though? Apple could still claim they are using a 'server grade' HD. Has reference to it been removed from their website?

The comments about Time Machine WERE retracted. They simply disapeared off their store front. Who knows what their plans are concerning their claim of "server grade" drives? Maybe they will keep it because Hitachi is trying to market their drives as both a consumer level and commercial drive for server use.

They would simply be smarter to retract it, or to beef up the drive.

 

[viggen9]

If a consumer is comparing Time Capsule to other options, "server grade" is clearly misleading. Other USB hard drives (ie. My Book, LaCie Porsche, etc) don't stipulate "server-grade"; and if someone was to actually research hard drives, they'll clearly see that there are two classes of hard drives, the normal kind (ie. Deskstar) and the enterprise server kind (ie. Ultrastar).

At that point, the consumer, trying to figure out which is the best deal, would reasonably assume that "server-grade" meant Apple was using the "better" kind of hard drive and not just a normal one, since they're going to the trouble of specifying it... at which point Time Capsule looks like a better deal. The 1TB Ultrastar costs $350 vs. the Deskstar's $270 (at Newegg.com) making Time Capsule look like it's getting $80 of additional value, which could sway someone that was considering going the cheap route of a standalone USB drive.

I don't see how anyone (except sycophants still wrapped in the RDF) could not see that that's misleading at the very least. Whether or not the higher-grade drive is worth the extra 80 bucks is irrelevant, the point is it looks that there's additional value that you're actually not receiving. Is it worth all the whining? Maybe, maybe not, but certainly when a company that people admire engages in petty deception and then engages in word parsing, it becomes less admirable. Which explains why there's so much complaining from those that are disappointed from their "hero", and so much rabid defense from those that don't want to admit their "hero" is imperfect.

In this case, Apple's "Server-grade" seems in the spirit of Microsoft's "Vista-capable". Perhaps technically accurate, but misleading if you look at it with a common sense point of view.

hear, hear!

 

[AlphaBob]

In this case, Apple's "Server-grade" seems in the spirit of Microsoft's "Vista-capable". Perhaps technically accurate, but misleading if you look at it with a common sense point of view.

Excellent post and right on the money. Microsoft has been taken to court over their rating PCs "Vista-Capable". An perfect example of a company parsing words getting into trouble over it.

 

[TMay]

If a consumer is comparing Time Capsule to other options, "server grade" is clearly misleading. Other USB hard drives (ie. My Book, LaCie Porsche, etc) don't stipulate "server-grade"; and if someone was to actually research hard drives, they'll clearly see that there are two classes of hard drives, the normal kind (ie. Deskstar) and the enterprise server kind (ie. Ultrastar).

At that point, the consumer, trying to figure out which is the best deal, would reasonably assume that "server-grade" meant Apple was using the "better" kind of hard drive and not just a normal one, since they're going to the trouble of specifying it... at which point Time Capsule looks like a better deal. The 1TB Ultrastar costs $350 vs. the Deskstar's $270 (at Newegg.com) making Time Capsule look like it's getting $80 of additional value, which could sway someone that was considering going the cheap route of a standalone USB drive.

I don't see how anyone (except sycophants still wrapped in the RDF) could not see that that's misleading at the very least. Whether or not the higher-grade drive is worth the extra 80 bucks is irrelevant, the point is it looks that there's additional value that you're actually not receiving. Is it worth all the whining? Maybe, maybe not, but certainly when a company that people admire engages in petty deception and then engages in word parsing, it becomes less admirable. Which explains why there's so much complaining from those that are disappointed from their "hero", and so much rabid defense from those that don't want to admit their "hero" is imperfect.

In this case, Apple's "Server-grade" seems in the spirit of Microsoft's "Vista-capable". Perhaps technically accurate, but misleading if you look at it with a common sense point of view.

Using the 1Mhr MTBF for the Deskstar and 1.2Mhr MTBF for the Ultrastar, and over a 5 year period, it works out to an average failure rate of 4.35/hundred units for the Deskstar, and 3.5/hundred units for the Ultrastar. (wiki MTBF page)

Frankly, I don't see a significant difference, nor do I see any specification for what "server class" is anyway. I did read on wiki (server drives) that a failure rate of .73% to .78% defines an enterprise class, which is lower than the .87% rate for the Deskstar, but Apple never stated that these were enterprise class.

 

[pondie84]

The comments about Time Machine WERE retracted. They simply disapeared off their store front. Who knows what their plans are concerning their claim of "server grade" drives? Maybe they will keep it because Hitachi is trying to market their drives as both a consumer level and commercial drive for server use.

They would simply be smarter to retract it, or to beef up the drive.

Oh yes... I know all about the comments about the Time Machine being retracted and can understand the disappointment and anger with that to a greater extent than this.

I guess what people should take away from this is to be careful when preordering a new product because there can always be shady details that won't be known until its release. I recall many people on these forums questioning what 'server grade' meant and wondering what interpretation of 'server grade' Apple would have. Surely that ought to have raised alarm bells?

 

[peestandingup]

This last line is ridiculous and I'm tired of hearing it. Someone's opinion differs from yours and you resort to childish name-calling?

If you're tired of hearing it & believe Apple can do no wrong, just leave. No one appointed you the official Apple defender. The term "Sheep" isn't exactly an insult.

The majority of the people in this thread obviously believe Apple is misleading customers. Don't like what you're hearing? Don't participate. Pretty simple really.

 

[tuneman07]

Of course it does not.

Apple the new microsoft? How long till people start realizing the shady side of apple and hate on apple like they do with microsoft?

Come to think about it some apple users will see other companies wrongs but never apples.

Continue the ass rape apple.

If a company promises something whatever happened to following through with that promise?

I just cant believe people are justifying the fact that the end user will not notice teh diffrence between server class and commercial off the shelf hardware.

WOW @ THE APPLE DROIDS. Wrong is wrong no matter how you put it.

This guy is right- Apple is supposed to be the "anti corporation corporation" AKA hippies yada yada whatever but Apple lately has seemed to be every bit as bad, honestly maybe worse than the "supercorporation" AKA microsoft/every other huge corporation. They just are doing a lot of super stupid corporate not very apple type things lately.

 

[Abstract]

Agreed. I am losing my loyalty...

The XServe comes with this drive.

Is Apple the only one using them in a server? Apple uses Deskstar HDDs in the XServes, so Apple can now say they're server grade? That's not really proof. It's a total conflict of interest for Apple to say they're used in servers just because THEY use them in servers. I want to see another company who uses them in their servers before I call these drives "server grade".

To use the words "server grade" means these drives are more reliable than the ones you'd see in a typical desktop. If these are drives that are typically used in desktops, not servers, then I think Apple should edit their website. If these drives were "server grade", then it implies higher reliability and standards, like Thingy said (quite well). That's not what you're getting, whether Apple also puts them into Xserves or not.

 

[hulugu]

If you're tired of hearing it & believe Apple can do no wrong, just leave. No one appointed you the official Apple defender. The term "Sheep" isn't exactly an insult.

The majority of the people in this thread obviously believe Apple is misleading customers. Don't like what you're hearing? Don't participate. Pretty simple really.

I am perfectly willing to discuss whether or not Apple intentionally mislead customers, I happen to disagree with others on this issue. However, I vehemently believe that discourse can happen without the ad hominem attack that the previous poster used.
Furthermore, the idea that if I don't like what I'm hearing I should simply go home results in the delusatory groupthink you're so willing to engage in.

Also, who appointed you the defender of the poster I quoted?

 

[hulugu]

Never said it wasn't. I actually think the idea was quite smart. It is VERY useful for backing up home computers, the vast majority of which are never backed up in the first place. I have no issue with Time Capsule or Time Machine. Both are great ideas and products as far as they go.

I only have issue with the statements made in public and on Apple Storefront Web Site that are soliciting sales (pre-orders) of the equipment that are retracted after the product ships. If Apple had originally said Time Machine is designed to back up computers using USB attached drives or the Time Capsule only, I would have NO issue. If Apple had originally said nothing about the type of hard-drive used in the Time Capsule, I would have NO issue.

This is a reasonable point.

Again, I'm not defending Apple per se, rather I don't think this is an issue worthy of a class-action lawsuit or the pitchforks and torches approach of many the comments in here.

As for Time Machine through AEBS, I believe this was a technical issue that Apple didn't have a handle on. Rather than release a product, which may or may not be backing up your data correctly, they removed the option. If this is true, Apple's response was quite responsible and I think they're taking far more flak than they deserve.

 

[solipsism]

Is Apple the only one using them in a server? Apple uses Deskstar HDDs in the XServes, so Apple can now say they're server grade? That's not really proof. It's a total conflict of interest for Apple to say they're used in servers just because THEY use them in servers. I want to see another company who uses them in their servers before I call these drives "server grade".

To use the words "server grade" means these drives are more reliable than the ones you'd see in a typical desktop. If these are drives that are typically used in desktops, not servers, then I think Apple should edit their website. If these drives were "server grade", then it implies higher reliability and standards, like Thingy said (quite well). That's not what you're getting, whether Apple also puts them into Xserves or not.

i

[Apple's senior product manager, Ja] Chulani clarified that the "server-grade" drives in a Time Capsule are the same 7200 rpm drives used for Apple's Xserve servers, and that they have a higher mean time between failure (MTBF) rating than consumer drives. The MTBF for server-grade drives is often 1 million hours (114 years), which is a measure of probability; in this case, that out of a set of drives with similar properties, an extremely high percentage will still be fully functional after several years.
(source)​

 

[Tosser]

i

[Apple's senior product manager, Ja] Chulani clarified that the "server-grade" drives in a Time Capsule are the same 7200 rpm drives used for Apple's Xserve servers, and that they have a higher mean time between failure (MTBF) rating than consumer drives. The MTBF for server-grade drives is often 1 million hours (114 years), which is a measure of probability; in this case, that out of a set of drives with similar properties, an extremely high percentage will still be fully functional after several years.
(source)​

Er, and how does that in any way say anything more than "we use it in the Xserves as well"?
That's the thing Abstract (and others – at least me) have against that argument. "How about naming some other manufacturers, instead of just naming Apple's own products, as naming just another Apple-product isn't a valid argument?
Your link just mentions Apple's Xserves. Just like it did the last time it was linked to.

 

[TMay]

I am perfectly willing to discuss whether or not Apple intentionally mislead customers, I happen to disagree with others on this issue. However, I vehemently believe that discourse can happen without the ad hominem attack that the previous poster used.
Furthermore, the idea that if I don't like what I'm hearing I should simply go home results in the delusatory groupthink you're so willing to engage in.

Also, who appointed you the defender of the poster I quoted?

There's an old legal aphorism that goes, "If you have the facts on your side, pound the facts. If you have the law on your side, pound the law. If you have neither on your side, pound the table."

Your detractors seem to be pounding the table...

Me, I just run the numbers, and the numbers suggest a drive better than a consumer drive though not up to an enterprise drive, but certainly good enough for Apple's own servers. Much ado about nothing.