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Er, and how does that in any way say anything more than "we use it in the Xserves as well"?
That's the thing Abstract (and others – at least me) have against that argument. "How about naming some other manufacturers, instead of just naming Apple's own products, as naming just another Apple-product isn't a valid argument?
Your link just mentions Apple's Xserves. Just like it did the last time it was linked to.

Because it's known that a 1M hour MBTF is server/enterprise-grade. While it seems a huge mistake if Chulani lying about his blatant comment, it's also odd for that Hitachi has not made mention of this rating themselves.

Since these drives were obviously going to displayed as soon the Time Capsule was available it's possible that Seagate bid for 1TB position in Time Capsule and decided to make use a "beefed-up" Deskstar that met the minimum classification of server/enterprise-grade. Offering a more reliable drive to consumers while cutting corners.

The 500GB Seagate Barracuda ES found in the cheaper TimeCapsule is advertised as Server/Enterpirse-grade on Seagate's website with a MBTFs of 1.2M hours. It also has the standard 5-year warranty for these class drives.
 
Because it's known that a 1M hour MBTF is server/enterprise-grade.
There's no such thing as "server/enterprise grade". There's also no definitive evidence that these drives don't meet that arbitrary 1M hour MTBF--in fact, the start/stop cycles are consistent with a drive with a 1M hour MTBF.

Within the field, server-grade hardware is not synonymous with enterprise-grade hardware. Conflating the two just furthers more irrational and emotional response to this issue than could possibly be supported by fact. Hitachi specifically identifies the Deskstar line as suitable for consumer and "mid-range server" applications. To wit:

Hitachi Global Storage Technologies (Hitachi GST) today announced that SoftJoys – a provider of computing server equipment and services in Russia – is using Hitachi GST’s one terabyte* hard drives in its high-capacity data storage servers. The Hitachi Deskstar™ 7K1000 hard drive will be used by SoftJoys to develop and launch data storage servers with a total capacity of 24 terabytes. The data storage servers are intended for data streaming applications.
--Hitachi

Apple is far from the only company making servers with Deskstar hard drives, and all the Deskstars with explicitly advertised MTBF figures are at a million hours anyway. The 7K1000 is consistent in the start/stop figure with a 1M hour MTBF drive.
 
Wah!
 

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There's no such thing as "server/enterprise grade".

Sure there is. The hard drive manufactures helpfully label them:

Seagate Barracuda - Consumer
Seagate Barracude ES - Enterprise/Server
Hitachi Deskstar - Consumer
Hitachi Ultrastar - Enterprise/Server
etc

Labelling something as "server-grade" clearly implies its the higher-end drive the manufacturers produce, otherwise why would they produce them and why would Apple bother specifying it? If Apple wants to arbitrarily call something "server-grade" based on some other criteria, it should just say what it is. Saying "server-grade (1M MTBF) hard drive" or something on the Tech Specs page would avoid this whole controversy.

And saying "it's server-grade because its found in servers" is similarly meaningless; sure Deskstars are found in servers, but so are completely standard desktop Seagates and WDs. Probably every 3.5" drive in existence has been put into a Dell PowerEdge at some point or other.
 
Looking at the OEM manual for this drive, it would seem that it is the same drive with 3 different names:

Hard Disk Drive Specification
Deskstar 7K1000
CinemaStar 7K1000
Ultrastar A7K1000
3.5 inch Serial ATA hard disk drive

It is the same manual for all "3" of these drives. The specs are all the same. Nowhere in this very lengthy manual is there a different spec for the A7k1000 that is Ultrastar. So if the specs are all the same regardless of the name in front of the number, is there really any difference between the Deskstar version and the Ultrastar version??? Could it be that Hitachi has the misleading marketing that they have successfully employed to convince people that the "Ultrastar" brand is a Server drive while the "Deskstar" brand is just a Consumer drive??
 
Sure there is. The hard drive manufactures helpfully label them:
That's not how they label them, which is the entire point. The Barracuda ES and Ultrastars are labeled as enterprise drives. There's no slash anything, and certainly not "server/enterprise" or even "enterprise/server", which is not a classification that exists. If you're confused about the "ES" designator, it stands for enterprise storage.

You are "helpfully" confusing the issue in a misguided attempt to propagate a rant. The drives are not enterprise drives. They were not claimed to be enterprise drives. The drives are marketed and sold by Hitachi as drives for servers. They are used in servers. "Enterprise" and "server" are not interchangeable, no matter how hard you try.
Labelling something as "server-grade" clearly implies its the higher-end drive the manufacturers produce
It doesn't imply that they're enterprise grade. Again, that's the whole point. "Server grade" doesn't mean anything by itself. Hitachi markets the Deskstar explicitly for consumer, entry and mid-range server use. It markets the Ultrastar for enterprise server use. There's a difference.
 
I understand there are some that will be disappointed with this (but it's not a HUGE deal to me.) 'Server grade' doesn't connote 'enterprise grade' to me, but if they're just going to stick regular HD's in there then what the heck are they touting? So it's really not hard to see both sides of the issue here.

What's ironic about this to me (and why it doesn't really bother me), is that any enterprise grade backup system is not going to simply rely on the 'enterprise grade' of a single backup HD, but is going to have redundant backups/RAID/optical backups in a bomb shelter/whatever. Sooner or later any HD is going to fail regardless of its 'grade'.

Over the long haul you're going to want a smart strategy for backups regardless of the grade of your HD's, i.e. a 'enterprise grade' system (or whatever you want to call it.)

But yeah, if they're just using regular basic level consumer drives then there's really no basis for advertising them as 'server grade', it's just a wishy-washy term that sounds good as a bullet point. Kind of like the 'CD quality' 64 kbps WMA that someone else mentioned.
 
Wirelessly posted (iPhone 16GB: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A102 Safari/419.3)

to add a couple of points to this: firstly, the deskstar and ultrastar ranges are basically the same drive internals: The ultrastar has different firmware to optimize RAID performance. Secondly, if you use hitachi's configuration page and select entry level server it will point you at the deskstar range.
 
V8 or V6

Look, for all you counter-whiners out there...

They promised a V8, they shipped a V6. The car will get you there, but that doesn't mean that the dealer should have hoodwinked you. Maybe 98% of customers wouldn't notice, but that's not truth-in-advertising.

When talking about hard drives, there is clearly a "consumer" class and "server" class. Specifically the less expensive drives with the less costly mechanical parts and the cheaper bearings and the lower MTBF are meant for people who shut down, sleep, or rest their drives.

I could make the case that you'd be using that backup drive less than your own computer's drive, and therefore it's not a big deal. But that's not the point. The point is TRUTH IN ADVERTISING. These clearly are not "server" class drives. They cannot truthfully advertise that they are.

So be it they are consumer grade; that doesn't on its own make it a bad product. It does make the MTBF rate a lot fewer hours, and even so, that's ok, too. You just cannot advertise as such. Period. It's illegal. They have the right to change their product, but now that they've hit the street, any new advertising saying "server" class would be false. They will obviously honor refunds in this new period, but now that they've downgraded drives, they may no longer do so.

So the question is do they have any *current* advertising that says "server" class?
 
o
"Wow! That is interesting, Hitachi drives (formerly IBM) were and are still
some of the worst drives out there. I have used every drive out there and
based on what I have experienced in our servers which we build (10-20
monthly) Seagate makes the most reliable drives out there. You just have to make sure to get the right drive for the application. I kid you not, I have
seen more ibm and Hitachi drives fail from failure over the last 4 years
second only to Maxtor and now Maxtor is better because it is owned by
Seagate.

Got to love anecdotal evidence... I could make the case for Hitachi drives being the most reliable drives (never seen a dead one - and we get a lot of machines through here), while the worst has been WD (I like WD drives, but the fact is that the failure rate has been greater than that I have seen of Hitachi drives i.e > 0).

As in other products, Apple probably are using whatever drive stock is to hand. Segate, WD, Hitachi, and Fujitsu) for the most part. So it is going to be pot luck what you get.

Personally, I never put any stock in the "Server-grade" storage Apple touted for the Time Capsule - because it is only a single drive. Had they produced a raid-1 product, then I would consider it more accurate and a selling point worth shouting about. With time machine you'd think it only a matter of time before Apple start offering an option to have two drives in iMacs and MacBook Pros.
 
Look, for all you counter-whiners out there..[snip].
– Omitting all the rest – as I agree completely.



So the question is do they have any *current* advertising that says "server" class?
Indeed:
http://www.apple.com/timecapsule/
http://www.apple.com/timecapsule/wireless.html

Nope, they have removed it. Meaning, people "whining" about this being false advertising actually had a point, and that all the ones trying to come up with all sorts of excuses why Apple was entitled to claim one thing, and why they should be allowed to, yet deliver something are proven wrong.

By Apple themselves, nonetheless.

Haha, sorry, but this is rather funny. It really goes to show who's an apologist and who is not. I'm thinking of buying myself a moleskine (you know, a little black book) :p
 
Time Capsule UK Preorders?

Hello.

Has anyone received their UK time capsule pre-orders yet?

Tim
 
DeskStar drives were commonly referred to as DeathStar drives at one time when they were known for a high failure rate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deskstar#Deskstar_75GXP_failures
Hmmn, bought a 3.5" hitachi Deskstar drive for my G4, and that lasted 6 months before it failed, and recently bought a 2.5" Hitachi to replace the 80GB dive in my Macbook, and that lasted 9 months before it failed.

Could just be bad luck, but I for one won't be buying any more Hitachi drives.

Replaced the failed Hitachi Macbook drive with a Seagate Momentus, BTW.

Here's hoping THAT will last a bit longer!
 
Anyone here even worked in manufacturing?

Has anyone here even worked as an engineer or a product manager that is complaining about this anymore?

Agreed, before the update, apple did not seem to be doing the right thing. However, the update clarifies issues and puts it at rest.

Apple gives a quantitative metric based on the performance of the product (using industry wide acceptable standards, i.e. a probability based life) and people here are rejecting this classification based either on a) anecdotal evidence, or b) consumer.

So you mean to say that Mac OS X which was recommended by the US Armed Forces can no longer be called a consumer software because it has reached military status? Why cant Hitachi be selling its server based products to consumers? How does that reduce the "server gradedness" of the product? So if Hitachi was selling this at the same price as their more expensive HDs you would have had no issue with it?

As someone mentioned, its unlikely there is much difference between the higher end drive and this one, based on internals, except on capabilities (RAID, etc) and maybe firmware. This makes complete sense from a manufacturing perspective because it allows Hitachi to manufacture the 2 devices from the same manufacturing line. So essentially, if suddenly their consumer needs ramp up, but high end needs ramp down, instead of having over capacity in one plant, and under capacity in the other, they will still be able to work at max capacity without any major additional expense.
 
Has anyone here even worked as an engineer or a product manager that is complaining about this anymore?

Yes, because Apple's target customer is engineers and (IT) product managers :rolleyes:


Apple gives a quantitative metric based on the performance of the product (using industry wide acceptable standards, i.e. a probability based life) and people here are rejecting this classification based either on a) anecdotal evidence, or b) consumer.
Yes, yet another gold nugget: This product is targeted the IT product managers or engineers, not the average consumer.

So you mean to say that Mac OS X which was recommended by the US Armed Forces can no longer be called a consumer software because it has reached military status? Why cant Hitachi be selling its server based products to consumers?
What is that? Some sort of misaligned strawman? Are you trying to convince people that these hardrives are suddenly "military grade", yet are just "called" "consumer grade"?

How does that reduce the "server gradedness" of the product? So if Hitachi was selling this at the same price as their more expensive HDs you would have had no issue with it?

Oh, there it is: The strawman in full effect.


As someone mentioned, its unlikely there is much difference between the higher end drive and this one, based on internals, except on capabilities (RAID, etc) and maybe firmware.
THen apple shouldn't mislead the customers with false advertising. And besides that nugget someone linked to, they have removed the word "server grade" from the blue box that used to be next to the "802.11n" on their time capsule page. Your point is moot.

This makes complete sense from a manufacturing perspective because it allows Hitachi to manufacture the 2 devices from the same manufacturing line. So essentially, if suddenly their consumer needs ramp up, but high end needs ramp down, instead of having over capacity in one plant, and under capacity in the other, they will still be able to work at max capacity without any major additional expense.

Oh, so you're arguing that they're sellling much higher specced hardware than they're letting on. That makes sense :rolleyes:
 
That's not how they label them, which is the entire point. The Barracuda ES and Ultrastars are labeled as enterprise drives. There's no slash anything, and certainly not "server/enterprise" or even "enterprise/server", which is not a classification that exists. If you're confused about the "ES" designator, it stands for enterprise storage.

You are "helpfully" confusing the issue in a misguided attempt to propagate a rant. The drives are not enterprise drives. They were not claimed to be enterprise drives. The drives are marketed and sold by Hitachi as drives for servers. They are used in servers. "Enterprise" and "server" are not interchangeable, no matter how hard you try.

It doesn't imply that they're enterprise grade. Again, that's the whole point. "Server grade" doesn't mean anything by itself. Hitachi markets the Deskstar explicitly for consumer, entry and mid-range server use. It markets the Ultrastar for enterprise server use. There's a difference.

I agree completely with your point. I don't understand what the big deal is. If Apple said it was Enterprise and wasn't THEN we'd have a problem. Sigh... oh well...



I looked up some Deskstar reviews. They are uniformly complimentary.

Anandtech - Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000: Terabyte Storage arrives on the Desktop
Our limited experiences to date with the Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000 have been terrific and beyond expectations. The overall performance of this drive has been phenomenal and is close enough to the WD1500ADFD Raptor drive that we consider it a worthy adversary. Overall, we think Hitachi's Deskstar 7K1000 is the best 7200rpm drive we have tested to date.


PC mag - Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000 4 1/2 stars out of five.

X-Bit Labs-Way to the Top: Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000 HDD Review
...the newest HDD from Hitachi is almost perfect.

It looks like this is a great drive. I would be interested to hear from those who have an Xserve. Does it match the hype?
 
apple-bash?

Amazing the lengths some people will go to to bash Apple.

there was a 3rd political party that spoke of "keeping the bastards honest" - this is in australia - and they're pretty much gone now; but as a mac-lover from the 80's who has been burnt i wondered if my loyalty was reciprocated or love requited when my kid is on her 3rd mb hd - the fw 7.03s - and my OS 7 stuff is soon to be inaccessible because i'm offered a new imac instead of a 3rd LCD for my shanghai G5... we all love mac or wouldn't be here - it's just a question of tolerance
my next purchase will be a 500gb TC - but not with my eyes closed and fingers crossed - i expect more than the minimum a business model can get away with and if someone tries to mollify me i query it - why not? i have -so far - got satisfaction and can still promote macs with a clear conscience.
can't i ? don't we all?
 
Wow 9 pages.

If Apple are using these drives in their Xserve then surely they're entitled to refer to them as being server-grade?

What did people expect Apple to put in this box considering its footprint, price and target audience?
 
I'm pretty disgusted TBH. Why go to such lengths to claim it's a server grade HDD when it's just a regular HDD?

I believe that the claim is misleading.

So if its not considered "server grade", why do they use it in their servers? :confused:
 
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