JGowan
macrumors 68000
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Today's Announcements: The Untold Story
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corywoolf
macrumors 65816
Here's the deal... Apple was going to release these apps alongside a bump on the memory in the iPod Touch. They didn't like the current prices of the memory, so they rolled out the software update on it's own. The actual body wont change for a while on the touch. It is just software updates for awhile. They still need to bring in revenue, so they will keep releasing these paid updates for awhile. Look for the next paid upgrade to be a bundle of games and maybe a utility or two. Then again this could just be like the unlocking of 802.11n airport cards in Macbooks.
For all the europeans here please contact the EU Commission. http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/index_en.htm so Apple will learn the etiquette for business and the etiquette for customers in EU Area.
Two weeks ago if you could have bought the 5 apps from Joe's Software for $20, you would have thought that was the greatest deal going.
Because its from Apple (the manufacturer of the hardware) and they are calling it an upgrade is why it seems expensive!
Because its from Apple (the manufacturer of the hardware) and they are calling it an upgrade is why it seems expensive!
huh?
i'm in the EU and last time i checked it worked pretty much the same as everywhere else. companies release products and charge for them.
if you think they've broken an EU rule (as with iTunes pricing) then let us know which one but etiquette? you're having a laugh.
well let's start with the fact that as of today no-one has rented a movie through apple TV.
but once they have - the software upgrade adds two main things - movie rentals and the iTunes store. essentially i suspect that this is the same as iTunes - it's essentially a give away as a prelude to future business.
the problem sox sets up is if you say as part of buying the product you're entitled to future upgrades, apple have to hold money back from their books until they release those upgrades.
in the case of AppleTV they're not doing that, they're creating a new product - moving rentals and music sales so the revenue realisation rules are different.
stated by Steve Jobs that this was a defect, that it had always been intended that you would be able to add and edit but that they'd not had it done in time for release.
as has been said defects are not covered by the same accounting rules.
don't get me wrong, i understand why you're frustrated.
my view is that apple should make this available free to anyone who bought an ipod touch in the last month and for others should have made it cheaper. i think that they'd benefit more from the goodwill than what is ultimately going to be a relatively small revenue stream.
i also get that this is a change to the way apple have operated in the past bought about by sox and any change can be unpleasant when you're one of the people who ends up paying because the rules changed.
but what i don't accept is that you have any right, legal or otherwise to these apps. you and i bought iPod touches with a given feature set and apple delivered that. products always advance and as they change people are always either side of the changeover - some benefiting, others wishing they'd waited - but that's the price of progress.
as for the fact it's just copying and pasting, that's neither here nor there. the fact it's easy to port software doesn't change the fact that software development costs money and the companies who develop it have a right to recoup the money however they wish. i have no more right to free touch apps than i do to copy software. easy or difficult isn't part of it.
I think many if not most Touch owners would be ok with that if that were the case, and all owners of the iPod Touch both current and future had to pay the $20 to 'upgrade' the Touch to the iPhone software. This is reasonable because Apple is making a significantly greater amount of money from the iPhone due to the AT&T subscription revenue.
What bothers me, and I presume most who are angry, is the fact that ONLY the people who currently own an Ipod Touch ("early adopters") have to pay to upgrade, whereas new users get it for free. That doesn't seem fair to me; and to the contrary, it appears an especially bad decision to piss off your early adopters when Apple is one of those business that thrives on their core dedicated users who make up a large share of the early adopters of their products. it definitely leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Assuming Sarbanes-Oxley is to blame still doesn't explain the much higher cost than enabling 802.11N for $2.99 or whatever. I don't think anyone can argue that a couple of widgets apps are worth significantly more than a major new hardware feature upgrade.
I'm not one to feel entitled to any sort of discount/rebate/gift card, but for the sake of their corporate image, I sure hope they do something.
dan-o-mac
macrumors 6502a
I don't get it. Doesn't the iPod touch have itunes built in too. Same movies you rent via iTunes or AppleTV can be transfered to your iPod Touch.
Who would be able to call them out on a 2 fee? It's software Apple created, shouldn't they be able to charge what they want for it?
Like I said earlier, the timing on this has a bad smell to it. Why did they wait till after the holiday season to release this update.
Also how does Sony get away with it with the PSP or Micrsoft with the first gen Zune?
thejadedmonkey
macrumors G3
Well, my iPod 3G came without on-the-go playlists. Now, it has them. I paid $0 for this new feature, so I call this BS.
That's my problem right there. It's worth the $20, as I never expected to have this functionality when I bought mine a month ago. They are quality applications for sure. However, if new users get them for "free", I'm the sucker and that makes me angry. Angry users don't recommend products any more.
Apple is Worth the Price
At least many people think that the quality of most Apple hardware and software is worth buying and using, which is more than we can say about most airline food (at least if not in First Class). Maybe the food is not free, but if the quality were good more people would not complain about paying. When the quality is low and you have to pay and you are hungry, that is hard to take. 🙂😀
At least many people think that the quality of most Apple hardware and software is worth buying and using, which is more than we can say about most airline food (at least if not in First Class). Maybe the food is not free, but if the quality were good more people would not complain about paying. When the quality is low and you have to pay and you are hungry, that is hard to take. 🙂😀
dawnrazor
macrumors 6502
$20 is nothing really, the real issue here is the update is only available through an iTunes account, thats fine if you happen to live in a country that supports iTunes, if not then your kinda screwed, which by the way is the large proportion of the worlds countries. The crappy thing here is that the iTouch is sold legally in almost every country. What do those people do who can't open an iTunes account?
iPod Touch Software
You actually buy it in the iTunes store. If you go to the main page of the store, there is a banner in the middle that says iPod Touch January Software Upgrade. If you click on that, it's just like buying an iPod game of anything else. You click "purchase", it downloads, and you sync it to your iPod, and you magically have new apps.
You actually buy it in the iTunes store. If you go to the main page of the store, there is a banner in the middle that says iPod Touch January Software Upgrade. If you click on that, it's just like buying an iPod game of anything else. You click "purchase", it downloads, and you sync it to your iPod, and you magically have new apps.
robanga
macrumors 68000
Yes its confusing for everyone believe me, as I have to make some of these decisions for my company's products. It all comes down to having plausible reasoning for claiming what type of accounting rule you will use for each product. Because of that, two products that seem similar let's say an iPod and AppleTV could carry two different rules internally and then the revenue get's counted on each differently.
One thing for certain, as a company you would rather not have all of your products based on a subscription model, because that means you can only claim revenue over time. Imagining having to ship a whole load of widgets to a distributor and you paid all your costs to make them, but at the time of the shipment you only get to claim 20% of the revenue. ouch!
Let's say that your loaded costs to make the widget is about 50% of sell price. That means you just took a -30% hit to your balance sheet on that order and you only make that into a profit over time. That is just tough financially.
I'm guessing internally at Apple they made decisions based on their desire for revenue recognition being 100% at the time of sale of the iPod touch.
Unless you have a link that says something different, the last I read is that the commission has considered the case closed, and there is no action intended to have a single iTunes Europa Store. The commission recognizes that there are differences in copyright law, as this quote from an article explains:
In a statement, the commission added that its has been able to clarify that there is no agreement between Apple and the major record companies regarding how the iTunes store is organised in Europe. Rather, the structure of the iTunes store is chosen by Apple to take into account the country-specific aspects of copyright laws.
"The Commission is very much in favour of solutions which would allow consumers to buy off the iTunes' online store without restrictions," the the statement said, "but it is aware that some record companies, publishers and collecting societies still apply licensing practices which can make it difficult for iTunes to operate stores accessible for a European consumer anywhere in the EU."
As I said, if you have knowledge of something different, please provide a link as I would like to read it.
By the way, my link is here
Ahhhhhggggg!! This is the way it works in the electronics game. This has kind of been said before, but I will try again. If I bought a Macbook in June, it came with Tiger and iWork 06. A few months later, that same Macbook, at the same price, came with Leopard and iWork 08. I would have to pay to upgrade my software to Leopard and iWork 08 despite the fact that new purchasers were getting that software for free. How is this any different??? New purchasers will ALWAYS get more for the same amount of money. If you don't like this model, wait until all the software that will ever be released gets released before buying anything 😉 Let me know how that works out for you.
It doesn't matter if the upgrade fee appears to be consistent with the existing business model. The issue is that most customers have the intuition that the cost of ipod software updates is not a maintenance expense that they will have to cover. Thus the model is reasonably unintuitive--BAD!! The RIAA sues everybody, and that is consistent with its business model, thus the RIAA's suits are justified? huzzuh?!?!?!
Customers have already thrown a lot of money into a cash cow, so they should get feature upgrades like these for free, especially since Apple should want to everything possible to drive up acceptance rate. $20 is for the ipod sock or music for the ipod or for the booster seat so the ipod can sit at the dinner table.
Customers have already thrown a lot of money into a cash cow, so they should get feature upgrades like these for free, especially since Apple should want to everything possible to drive up acceptance rate. $20 is for the ipod sock or music for the ipod or for the booster seat so the ipod can sit at the dinner table.
i see what you're saying about what people expect but there's a differential between a product (think 3G iPod or a washing machine) and a general computing device.
for a product, you don't expect feature sets to change or improve. i old iPod's never did, my toaster and washing machine don't. if i want a new feature i know that i have to cough up money for it by buying a new product and throwing it away.
with a general computing device (say a mac or a pc) i have an expectation that i can upgrade without throwing away and this leads to the possibility of free upgrades, however in reality upgrades are almost always cost options.
but i'm not sure why you say it's intuitive that the upgrade be free because neither model has a default of increasing functionality for free.
because apple are really struggling to get the acceptance rate of the ipod up...
iPod Touch Latest and OS 10.4.10
Does anyone know if the brand spankin' new touch will be/is fully compatible with 10.4.10?
I do not want to upgrade at this point to Leopard due to some apps that arent compatible with hardware I use currently.
THANKS! GRACIAS! DANKE! ARIGATO!🙂
Does anyone know if the brand spankin' new touch will be/is fully compatible with 10.4.10?
I do not want to upgrade at this point to Leopard due to some apps that arent compatible with hardware I use currently.
THANKS! GRACIAS! DANKE! ARIGATO!🙂
web mail application FREE
I agree with you: Apple is a business company, not a charity one.
I'm not angry because of the 20£ to have the new app, but because of the new customers haven't to pay for them!!!
As I was one of the firsts to buy the Touch, Mr. Jobs gives thanks asking me to pay for them!
Personally I'm going to continue to use TOUCH MAIL, a web mail application that works even better and that it's FREE.
Try it to believe it
www.tm.comvalid.com
and say me what you think about it
I agree with you: Apple is a business company, not a charity one.
I'm not angry because of the 20£ to have the new app, but because of the new customers haven't to pay for them!!!
As I was one of the firsts to buy the Touch, Mr. Jobs gives thanks asking me to pay for them!
Personally I'm going to continue to use TOUCH MAIL, a web mail application that works even better and that it's FREE.
Try it to believe it
www.tm.comvalid.com
and say me what you think about it
savar
macrumors 68000
Except I already installed those apps on my iPT...they are just giving me reasons *not* to upgrade.
The iWork 06 to 08 and Tiger to Leopard analogies don't hold water. This is not an across the board software upgrade. It's an addition of old apps that are known to run fine, as is, on the current hardware.
It's more like if minis were sold with out the current version of iLife. Then after a few months of postings about how you could put an iMac's copy of iLife on the mini and it would run just fine, Apple comes out and says: ok we'll release an "upgrade" for the mini with the same version of iLife and charge you for it.
Sure we all knew what the touch did and did not offer and bought it anyway, and yes Apple has the right to charge or not charge as they see fit, but just because they can doesn't mean they should. It's called customer service (and please Apple's prices and products are first class not coach so please spare me more airline anaolgies). If you bought a touch this fall and you're not a fanboy you know you just got shafted (though not nearly as much as they shafted iPhone early adopters).
i've installed and am running it with 10.4.11 and it's fine so i'd guess 10.4.10 would be ok too.
apparantly, apple should have just dropped the touch's price by $20 and then charged everyone for the upgrade. despite the fact that would be cumbersome and overall unnecessary.
it's a $20 price drop. it's electronics. it happens all the time. nobody cheated you, ike. just go home.
it's almost amusing how people will take the time to spell out how the accounting models work, and how many people, rather than challenging it in detail, revert back to the original arguments of "i don't see why new buyers get it for free, it's not fair." it's like running around with your hands over your ears.
as for the comparisons with the 802.11n upgrade, this is how it appears to me: the hardware capability for 802.11n was already in the computer, thus the hardware was already accounted for financially. but the software required to unlock it (which was not ready until after the release of these macs) was not accounted for. the $1.99 charge could be set somewhat arbitrarily because there was no market value for a software that would unlock that hardware. it had never happened before.
the idea is you can't charge a token amount for something that already has an established market value.
mobile apps already have an established market value, and $5/app is pretty competitive if you look at it in that light.
it's a $20 price drop. it's electronics. it happens all the time. nobody cheated you, ike. just go home.
it's almost amusing how people will take the time to spell out how the accounting models work, and how many people, rather than challenging it in detail, revert back to the original arguments of "i don't see why new buyers get it for free, it's not fair." it's like running around with your hands over your ears.
as for the comparisons with the 802.11n upgrade, this is how it appears to me: the hardware capability for 802.11n was already in the computer, thus the hardware was already accounted for financially. but the software required to unlock it (which was not ready until after the release of these macs) was not accounted for. the $1.99 charge could be set somewhat arbitrarily because there was no market value for a software that would unlock that hardware. it had never happened before.
the idea is you can't charge a token amount for something that already has an established market value.
mobile apps already have an established market value, and $5/app is pretty competitive if you look at it in that light.
jayducharme
macrumors 603
Biting the Bullet
And that really is the crux of the whole thing. I spoke about this with an Apple regional representative today, and his argument was the same as many have stated here: if you buy a Mac and a month later a new OS is released, Apple wouldn't give it to you for free.
One thing that's interesting though is that the 1.1.3 update did not completely update the Touch OS. The ability to move icons would seem to be a system update. But that's not included with 1.1.3; only with the purchase of the software package. And the purchase of the software package does not download anything to the Touch. That confirms what someone had mentioned earlier: the apps are all included in the 1.1.3 update, but they aren't enabled until you "unlock" them with a purchase.
At any rate, I bit the bullet today and swallowed my pride and spent the $20 on the "upgrade." I really like being able to re-arrange the icons. But Apple still hasn't fixed the Calendar alarm yet. (It's nearly inaudible and can't be changed.)
Well, time to start putting the new apps through their paces....
And that really is the crux of the whole thing. I spoke about this with an Apple regional representative today, and his argument was the same as many have stated here: if you buy a Mac and a month later a new OS is released, Apple wouldn't give it to you for free.
One thing that's interesting though is that the 1.1.3 update did not completely update the Touch OS. The ability to move icons would seem to be a system update. But that's not included with 1.1.3; only with the purchase of the software package. And the purchase of the software package does not download anything to the Touch. That confirms what someone had mentioned earlier: the apps are all included in the 1.1.3 update, but they aren't enabled until you "unlock" them with a purchase.
At any rate, I bit the bullet today and swallowed my pride and spent the $20 on the "upgrade." I really like being able to re-arrange the icons. But Apple still hasn't fixed the Calendar alarm yet. (It's nearly inaudible and can't be changed.)
Well, time to start putting the new apps through their paces....