Tony Fadell Talks Apple's Pre-iPhone Days of Failed Motorola Rokr and Touchscreen MacBook Prototype

[macduke]

He's full of crap and got caught in and big lie just the other week! If Apple saw this "celestial jukebox" so long ago, why the hell did Apple Music take so long to come out? They milked sales of higher capacity iPhone and iPod Touch models for years and still do to a certain extent.

Sounds like he is bored making up stories after being forced out of Google for underperforming. And he was forced out of Apple for clashing with the team. Give him credit for the iPod and the Nest was kinda cool (though dying now). But as a person he seems like someone you'd want to avoid.

 

[Chupa Chupa]

1. Sounds like a replay of today's survival challenges facing Apple, doesn't it?
2. Nowhere on these interviews the name Tim Cook comes to light, not even as a courtesy.

Just me thinking aloud:
It is almost like Cook lived at Apple, isolated and unaware of the magic being developed by engineering. Steve choosing him as successor must have been deeply demoralizing to the creatives.

Regarding #1, isn't that the challenge of every company with a hit product that accounts for a solid chunk of its revenue? But specifically regarding Apple, it was about to go belly up before Jobs came back. He reignited it with iMac. Then iMac kind of got stale and the iPod and, perhaps more importantly, iTMS and Windows compatibility, come along. Then the iPod gets to be old hat and the iPhone saves the day.

So the question as the iPhone ages and iPad sales go the way of the iPod, what's next? Good question. Tim? (Please don't say Apple Music).

Tim Cook was a bean counter at the time of the iPhone launch -- still is really. He probably wasn't a huge voice in product details other than actual production fabrication. I don't know if Jobs picking him was that demoralizing. Who wants to try and fill the shoes of Jobs and ruin there reputation? Cook really had none other than getting the parts to the factory on time. He was hiding behind the P&L ledgers most of the time. I don't think the creatives wanted to be nuts and bolts management like Cook is. They want to create. I don't think they are jealous of him.

 

[Rogifan]

He's full of crap and got caught in and big lie just the other week! If Apple saw this "celestial jukebox" so long ago, why the hell did Apple Music take so long to come out? They milked sales of higher capacity iPhone and iPod Touch models for years and still do to a certain extent.

Sounds like he is bored making up stories after being forced out of Google for underperforming. And he was forced out of Apple for clashing with the team. Give him credit for the iPod and the Nest was kinda cool (though dying now). But as a person he seems like someone you'd want to avoid.

Why should we give him credit for the iPod? Shouldn’t that really go to Jon Rubinstein? The product intro video for iPod doesn’t even feature Tony Fadell. It’s Rubinstein, Phil Schiller and Jony Ive. Also I think it’s telling that Fadell was never given broad hardware engineering responsibilities. He ran the iPod division after Ruby but then Jobs brought in Mark Papermaster to run iPhone hardware engineering. And the iPhone team, not the iPod team, oversaw the iPod touch. Why wasn’t Fadell given that job if he’s all that?

 

[MrX8503]

The question is why not?

The competition has, and succeeded in implementing this.

And the existing user interface doesn't work well for the use-cases I mentioned. It doesn't work at all. But hey, you can't miss what you don't have, right? If it's not on a Mac, you don't need it, right? Like connectivity, upgradeability, compatibility, right?

As Macs become increasingly unnecessary and a bad value, especially when competitors offer more capability for less money, this needs to be taken into consideration.

Remember, we're talking about adding capability to the Mac that is already available elsewhere. Microsoft, with the Surface Studio, shot that cannonball across Apple's bow. And many, many Mac users were drooling.

Apple is supposed to grow as a company, and grow it's customer base. If they ignore this, they'll continue to be the niche they are. They're profitable in this niche, no question, but that's where they'll stay for sure.

As a longtime Mac user, I'm getting tired of being able to do things on Windows machines that I cannot on the Mac. It was the same for iPhone, and I switched. My wife switched. My kids switched. And all are both happy now and reticent to return to Apple because they don't want to give up what they can do now.

They keep this up, and more and more people will jump ship. Myself included.

And the answer is, it's not worth the R&D.

Yep there's a massive exodus from Mac to Windows.
https://9to5mac.com/2017/06/28/21-o...-to-mac-says-survey-against-2-mac-to-windows/

 

[Johnny London]

The light on the cover image is brutal. Stepping out of the shadows- could be done nicer

 

[odin]

I had the "other" iTunes phone just after that, the Moto SLVR. I actually really liked that phone and hung on to it for ages because it was small and durable.

 

[Brien]

The iPod initiated the demise of the music industry. It introduced the concept that we can download (steal) music files than were small in size over the internet (Napster), which led to everyone not paying for music anymore. AND it also lowered the fidelity standard of music - to "but mp3s sound fine" attitudes. We used to have LPs and tapes, then went to CDs.. then we dropped down the quality so we could all carry 2500 songs in our pocket. The music industry has never recovered.

see chart for last 40 years... it only goes to 2014. Note music streaming is on the rise. But the overall point is revenue going to the artists is at all-time low.

http://blog.thecurrent.org/2014/02/40-years-of-album-sales-data-in-one-handy-chart/

Which is why concert tickets are $300+.

Apple - especially post Beats - could make a push to HD audio if they really wanted. I wish someone would. Pono was a good idea.

If Apple Music had a high quality tier (44.1/16 or better) I'd be all over it.

 

[jmgregory1]

You're denying half the planet that use a mouse in addition to trackpad (to stay in your universe) and you'd probably launched the iPhone with a rotating dialpad (to stay on the memorial topic)
I was using the MS surface paradigm that demonstrates the use of alternative input for the better, so you could assume my understanding of its basics.
Denying the needs and habits of other people doesn't bring the world any further (albeit it might bring you to a job at the curent Apple...)

I’m not a mouse user mostly because they too are a limiting legacy device, especially when you compare them to Apple trackpads and the ability to do multi-finger input.

My point has been totally related to touch input on-screen on laptops and desktop computers.

 

[melendezest]

And the answer is, it's not worth the R&D.

Yep there's a massive exodus from Mac to Windows.
https://9to5mac.com/2017/06/28/21-o...-to-mac-says-survey-against-2-mac-to-windows/

Sure, whatever.

From your article:

"Unsurprisingly, those planning a move to Mac were mostly in the higher income brackets, with interest greatest among those earning $150k plus. There was also high interest among lower earners in their teens and twenties, who may be anticipating a switch as their income grows."

Niche it is.

Here's the truth:

http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-mac-lost-most-pc-market-share-in-2016-chart-2017-1

 

[admob71]

I’m not a mouse user mostly because they too are a limiting legacy device, especially when you compare them to Apple trackpads and the ability to do multi-finger input.

My point has been totally related to touch input on-screen on laptops and desktop computers.

Did you really just say that a mouse is limited to a finger operated track pad? Wow, that's hilarious.. you can do mm perfect precision movements with a mouse, a finger is good for typing and the odd game of angry birds. This will not change any time soon...

 

[MrX8503]

Sure, whatever.

From your article:

"Unsurprisingly, those planning a move to Mac were mostly in the higher income brackets, with interest greatest among those earning $150k plus. There was also high interest among lower earners in their teens and twenties, who may be anticipating a switch as their income grows."

Niche it is.

Here's the truth:

http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-mac-lost-most-pc-market-share-in-2016-chart-2017-1

Which had more to do with Apple not releasing new Macs than the lack of a touch screen.

Adding a touch screen doesn't make good business sense.

The question is why would they spend so much money to supplement an already great user input? Small returns IMO.

 

[CarlJ]

Did you really just say that a mouse is limited to a finger operated track pad? Wow, that's hilarious.. you can do mm perfect precision movements with a mouse, a finger is good for typing and the odd game of angry birds. This will not change any time soon...

They have different strengths. The trackpad is great for gestures as well as movement/selecting. In this way is is superior to the mouse. The mouse is terrific for positioning that is both fast and very accurate - it'll always be better for FPS games - but it is not as well suited for things other than absolute or relative x/y input. But a trackpad can show the desktop with a 4-finger un-pinch, or scroll between spaces with a 3-finger swipe, or rotate a picture with a twisting gesture. Not as easy with a mouse. As I said, different strengths.

 

[discuit]

Ask yourself why Apple doesn't support 24-bit FLAC files in iTunes?

For starters, there's no real advantage to the end user to have 24-bit audio (vs 16-bit). It is not humanly possible to experience the higher dynamic range enabled by 24-bit at a given volume. https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

I agree that the ability to get FLAC would be nice (they used to have iTunes Plus, so there's precedent for offering multiple quality options for a song.)

 

[ErikGrim]

Ask yourself why Apple doesn't support 24-bit FLAC files in iTunes?

Because they support 24-bit ALAC files.

 

[Macintoshrumors]

"Plus the multitouch itself, we didn't know we could scale it that large to a full-screen display. "

Congrats to all, we are 10 years later now and I still hear that stoplap.
We have 13" overcapable iPads - limited by running a phone OS because a couple of grey veterans never took the challenge to make a dedicated OS for that category of "Pro" systems, that actually aren't that much Pro because of that bad decision - or lack of...
Isn't it time that the absolutist Kim Y. Phil revises his (No, we can't)- position, starts thinking out of the box, stops alienating the issue via the already redundant TouchBar, and now starts realizing a touch-Mac running MacOS with multitouch (yes it will have limitations, but that stems from earlier mental lamentation...)
I'm so bored by the lack of real courage by these overpaid conservatives...

I really don't want a touchscreen on a mackbook nor do we need a separate OS for what Apple considers a mobile device which is iPad. It wasn't s bad decision on apples side.
[doublepost=1498711453][/doublepost]

The iPod initiated the demise of the music industry. It introduced the concept that we can download (steal) music files than were small in size over the internet (Napster), which led to everyone not paying for music anymore. AND it also lowered the fidelity standard of music - to "but mp3s sound fine" attitudes. We used to have LPs and tapes, then went to CDs.. then we dropped down the quality so we could all carry 2500 songs in our pocket. The music industry has never recovered.

see chart for last 40 years... it only goes to 2014. Note music streaming is on the rise. But the overall point is revenue going to the artists is at all-time low.

http://blog.thecurrent.org/2014/02/40-years-of-album-sales-data-in-one-handy-chart/

times and technology changed. The music industry, as well as others, did not take the time to adapt or change with technology which lead to their demise. Did you think we would pay for music/video forever? (Technically we still do in form of subscriptions and iTunes downloads and there is t much pirating as before) give me a break.

 

[ErikGrim]

If Apple Music had a high quality tier (44.1/16 or better) I'd be all over it.

Apple Music is literally 44.1/16.
[doublepost=1498713328][/doublepost]

AND it also lowered the fidelity standard of music - to "but mp3s sound fine" attitudes. We used to have LPs and tapes, then went to CDs.. then we dropped down the quality so we could all carry 2500 songs in our pocket.

This argument isn't illustrating what you think it is. Rather it shows how convenience trumps quality. LPs sounds better than tapes, but tapes were cheaper and more convenient. And while low bitrate and poorly encoded mp3 files sounded worse than LPs, they certainly sounded better than tapes. And were conveniently downloaded and you could fit way more on a device than on a CD. Today's digital files sound better than both LPs and tapes with the added convenience of streaming and mass storage.

 

[admob71]

They have different strengths. The trackpad is great for gestures as well as movement/selecting. In this way is is superior to the mouse. The mouse is terrific for positioning that is both fast and very accurate - it'll always be better for FPS games - but it is not as well suited for things other than absolute or relative x/y input. But a trackpad can show the desktop with a 4-finger un-pinch, or scroll between spaces with a 3-finger swipe, or rotate a picture with a twisting gesture. Not as easy with a mouse. As I said, different strengths.

First, you suggest selecting is a touch pad strength, considering the mouse is pin point accurate, surely that's even better for selecting. Don't forget your left hand is hovering over 3 more control keys plus the multi button mouse functions. Things such as click, selected, drag, move, drop etc. Will always be so much easier with a mouse. There is the odd short cut that the track pad is good for but I'd wager in the majority of real world applications that the mouse will always win out. Just because it's old doesn't make it no good..

 

[Substance90]

Laptops and desktops with touchscreens are a bad idea, not because of technical limitations, but because it is a really bad user experience.

Not worse than puting a smartphone OS in a laptop-grade 10-inch tablet. (I know iOS 11 is aiming to correct that but it's too little too late if you ask me.)

 

[ErikGrim]

Not worse than puting a smartphone OS in a laptop-grade 10-inch tablet. (I know iOS 11 is aiming to correct that but it's too little too late if you ask me.)

Literally: You are objectively wrong.

It is far, FAR better to put a touch first OS into a tablet than to retrofit a non-touch OS into one.

 

[Bacillus]

I really don't want a touchscreen on a mackbook nor do we need a separate OS for what Apple considers a mobile device which is iPad. It wasn't s bad decision on apples side.

Well congrats, but there is a generation growing up that wants it and doesn't listen to Phil Schiller, you and other naysayers that deny them.

 

[jmgregory1]

Not worse than puting a smartphone OS in a laptop-grade 10-inch tablet. (I know iOS 11 is aiming to correct that but it's too little too late if you ask me.)

I think the issue with the iPad is more that Apple's marketing suggesting it was a laptop replacement set the expectations for a lot of people that it would perform the same tasks a laptop does, including file system management. But iOS was in part designed to eliminate file system management and the complexities that come with it (for a lot of people).

Having lived with and used an iPad as a pseudo laptop replacement, I can say it's great in that the weight reduction for travel is fantastic, but the user experience of working on spreadsheets, documents, and even writing emails is far from a laptop-like experience. The need to interact with both a standalone keyboard and the screen is frustrating and slows down work flow. My last overseas trip last month, I skipped taking both my rMBP and my iPad, and simply brought my iPhone 6S+, knowing I would only be doing limited spreadsheet editing and emailing and it worked out great.

The iPad can be great as a consumption device and it can also work well when what you're inputting on-screen is button taps, much like how some retailers use it for inventory checks or product purchases. But they're too big to hold and effectively and efficiently type at the same time, imho.
[doublepost=1498740324][/doublepost]

Well congrats, but there is a generation growing up that wants it and doesn't listen to Phil Schiller, you and other naysayers that deny them.

Taking consumer "wants" and acting on them is a recipe for disaster. People often say "I wish I had or could do...", but in the case of something like a touchscreen Mac (MacBook or iMac), they're really just using their experience with iPhone or iPad, thinking that it would be "great" to turn a laptop or desktop screen into a touch screen. The PC market, following Microsoft's lead in development of a touch OS, seemingly blindly followed them and put out all sorts of touchscreen computers. And when you look at reviews, you see that a lot of people tried touch input when they first got it, then stopped and went right back to what they have been doing - using keyboard / mouse / trackpad input.

You could argue that MS's OS was at least partly at fault, and that many programs just are not built or designed to be touchscreen compatible, but I'll go back and say again that the physical action of trying to manipulate a touch screen on a laptop or desktop, while also using a separate keyboard is just a bad user experience.

 

[TheShadowKnows!]

...but I'll go back and say again that the physical action of trying to manipulate a touch screen on a laptop or desktop, while also using a separate keyboard is just a bad user experience.

Graphical user interfaces rely on "noun-first" constructs, where the object ("noun") is selected followed by an action ("verb") optionally narrowed by a predicate ("prepositional phrase").

So, we have two camps:

1. The finger "no" camp, which claims (correctly) that the finger is a poor pointer to build this construct in the presence of a mouse/trackpad, and
2. The finger "yes" camp, which claims (correctly) that the finger is a part of all of us -- no additional hardware required -- and a complement to mouse/trackpad.

The flaming between the "no" and "yes" camps will continue, until the market will decide.
Or
Most likely, until something better, entirely-different, and technologically-disruptive comes along.

 

[Bacillus]

Taking consumer "wants" and acting on them is a recipe for disaster. People often say "I wish I had or could do...", but in the case of something like a touchscreen Mac (MacBook or iMac), they're really just using their experience with iPhone or iPad, thinking that it would be "great" to turn a laptop or desktop screen into a touch screen. The PC market, following Microsoft's lead in development of a touch OS, seemingly blindly followed them and put out all sorts of touchscreen computers. And when you look at reviews, you see that a lot of people tried touch input when they first got it, then stopped and went right back to what they have been doing - using keyboard / mouse / trackpad input.

You could argue that MS's OS was at least partly at fault, and that many programs just are not built or designed to be touchscreen compatible, but I'll go back and say again that the physical action of trying to manipulate a touch screen on a laptop or desktop, while also using a separate keyboard is just a bad user experience.

Ah, got it. So we should:
1. Stop worldwide marketing as a discipline
2. Cease shipment of external iPad keyboards that seem to prove the opposite of your idea's, because customers don't know/don't use what they want.
Zillions of them, they must all be borderliners - just like MS and "the market that follows them"...

 

[Brien]

Apple Music is literally 44.1/16.

Apple Music is 256k AAC, not lossless.

 

[macduke]

Why should we give him credit for the iPod? Shouldn’t that really go to Jon Rubinstein? The product intro video for iPod doesn’t even feature Tony Fadell. It’s Rubinstein, Phil Schiller and Jony Ive. Also I think it’s telling that Fadell was never given broad hardware engineering responsibilities. He ran the iPod division after Ruby but then Jobs brought in Mark Papermaster to run iPhone hardware engineering. And the iPhone team, not the iPod team, oversaw the iPod touch. Why wasn’t Fadell given that job if he’s all that?

Well, you're not wrong, lol.

I thought he was responsible for the interface and integrating the wheel with the software to make it a fluid experience? Haven't read the history in ages though, so I might be wrong. I thought he took his concept to Nest and it worked well for the thermostat. And when you think about it, he's kind of a one-trick pony, but still more successful than I'll likely ever be.