Top 5 Reasons NOT to buy a Mac

[budugu]

A post much closer to reality!

1) Browsing on MAC is next to hopeless! IE probably is the fastest but i cannot tell the difference from mozilla (any platform - HPUX /solaris / windows) ... Safari simply is darn slow to load and i am not getting into all compatibility issues here

2) Compatibility ... it is picking up but if you use PDAs and other printers (other than HP) etc ... you will end up spending a lot of money on poorly written software ... cell phones may be an exception

3) Connectivity ... any thing with a GUI plainly costs money ... SSH/SFTP clients are free on windows where as transmit is 25$ ... (ofcourse you can use ssh/sftp from command line) ... Messengers ... only ichat (with video/audio) ... and it will not work properly if you have a person even on AIM / Windows! Most VPNs and other stuff ....

4) you write any decent software ... you are F***ed ... the learning curve is totally stupid ... No standard C++/C libs ... all the apple marketing crap aside you have to learn objective -c and that darn thing is not useful any where else! Also add the backward compatibility ... any thing written for 10.4 does not work in 10.3 and in 10.3 will not work in 10.2 ... you can go on ...

5) hardware incompatibilities ... from RAM to usb connectors ... DVD writers and what not ...

6) Hopelessly slow burning ....my HP laptop burns DVD faster (with an external DVD drive - USB 2.0 based for you Firewire fanatics) than Dual G5 1.8 Ghz without any other single process running... both at 8X and you can go on ....


Most of the people hardly would have seen a latest generation windows laptops ... ever see the new HP business notebooks (<1.2" think) ? and new dell 700m is not bad either ... i do agree that old dells look horrible ... I have never had a Virus or Spyware on any of the machines so far ... and yes i donot even spend 2 mins on maintaining them every day ... just get the regular updates and you can even automate them ... For all this they cost a heck a lot less and can run any OS of your choice ... Networking for a layman is probably the single most impressive thing about Mac OSX and windows systems are not that behind ... Last but not the least .... i hardly ever switch off my computers ...laptops/workstations .... and they have not crashed in the recent past that i can (workstations over a year) think of.

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Apart from look at me i am cool .... and some how superior to rest of the people attitude because i use a mac... (which these forms are full of!) there is probably little that people on windows miss on Mac OS X ...

 

[sw1tcher]

The only reason I can think of off the top of my head right now as to why I'd want to get a Windows PC is because I want to see Microsoft's red screen of death.

 

[budugu]

So you're saying the amount of money Apple pays for its products is around the same as Dell would pay for a similar product. That's untrue. And if it were, it still wouldn't take away from the fact that most Dells are cheaper than Macs for consumers (i.e., everyone on Macrumors) and that Dells are a better deal in the short run.

Apple's gross margin last quarter was not over 30%. It was a little bit less (29.8% or something). That's compared to Dell's 18% gross margin. So yes, Apple does charge a premium for their products. But those numbers also tell us that Apple does spend more money on one of of its 23 inch displays than Dell does on one of its 24 inch display. If you can buy two 24 inch displays for the price on one 23 inch Apple display, and one of the Dell displays costs the same as one of Apple's 23 inch displays (as you said, each of the products cost the same when the companies manufacture them), then Dell's gross margin would have to be negative...Dell would lose money if it sold such an expensive display so cheaply.

Of course, we have to assume that Apple has around a 30% gross margin on its 23 inch display:

So Apple's display (retails at $1500) gives Apple a profit of $450. Gross margin = 450/1500 = 30%. This means that that display costs $1050 for Apple to make (1500 - 450 = 1050).

There is no way Dell could sell two displays that cost $1050 for them to make for a mere $1500.

But if we assume that Dell has a 18% gross margin on its 24 inch displays...

...then Dell's two displays (together retailing for $1500 -- as you said) give Dell a total profit of $270. That means that Dell must pay around $615 to make one of its 24 inch displays ([1500 - 270] / 2 = 615). To check those figures: gross margin = 135 / 750 (<-- 750 = the retail cost of one Dell displays) = 18%.

So...there you have it. Dell's larger 24 inch display costs about $415 less than Apple's 23 inch display. PCs actually are cheaper than macs...lol

---

On a side note, if you look at the net income applicable to common shares for both Dell and Apple, Dell's shares' net income is 14.33% of Dell's total revenue and Apple's shares' net income is 11.18% of Apple's total revenue. So while you may think Apple makes more money than Dell for its shareholders based on its total revenue, it's actually the other way around.

That is, of course, because Apple spends an enormous amount of money on R&D. Apple spends a few million more on R&D than Dell does per quarter, and it's revenue is less than 1/4 of Dell's. Still, Dell gives more of its money back to shareholders. It is arguable that the money spent by Apple on R&D will lead to more profits in the future for Apple (and Apple could then redirect more money to its investors), but that's another story...

Essentially, you pay more for Apple products to ensure that Apple products will remain consistently great. Apple needs higher gross margins than Dell because it spends so much money on R&D for it's consumers, really. The higher gross margins are not entirely for the shareholders (it just lets Apple gloat about high revenues).

In case you're wondering where I got these numbers:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=DELL
and
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=AAPL

Yes Indeed you can get two 24" dell flat panels for the cost of 1 23" ACD ... please look here: www.deals2buy.com

dell 24" -780 shipped .... ACD 1500$ + tax

I probably have not seen a more naive argument. I think there was a review i guess at anandtech that says the panels totally the same ... dell had more features etc ... You are getting confused on margin on a single product vs average margin ... DELL makes more money of large deals Servers etc where as apple makes out of home users ... ipod margins are close to 15-10% or even less and that is the bulk of the revenue ... so they could be ripping you off dearly ... it costs apple <265$ to make the Mac Mini you do the rest of the math!! Bottom line if you are a home user/student ..yes APPLE is RIPPING you off... for the the looks (and people are ready to pay for designer merchandise!) !!

Enough said!

 

[feakbeak]

3. You love downloading security updates every week.

Microsoft only releases security updates once a month. They've been doing this for a while now - second Tuesday of each month.

 

[budugu]

To match the quality of the iBook/Pbook, you just can't buy a Dell or HP or whatever since they're all competing for lower prices, not really putting the emphasis on durability and the quality of construction. The only other company that I trust is IBM for laptops and when I try to configure a T or X series with the same features that I get with the iBook, I'm nowhere near the iBook price tag! In fact, I got my iBook for 1354$ CAN (plus a little more because of the RAM I got from Crucial) and there's no way I'd get something similar under 2000-2400$!

Edit: If in fact you pointed out that this part made no sense, I'm sorry. What I was trying to say is that my other option was an IBM and it was far more expensive than the iBook..... English isn't my maiden language and it's 1:30 am here!

Edit 2: finally noticed what you meant! Okay, a desktop PC is cheaper, a laptop with similar specs is also cheaper but when you ask for the same quality, it gets through the roof on the PC platform. So, while a much cheaper alternative is available to you, it might not be a good decision to go for it since it wouldn't last all that long anyway!

This is a classic example of stereotyping ... if you want magnesium alloy (the latest and greatest ... yes it is better than al -stonger and lighter) notebooks you can buy also buy from HP ... even few dell models ... PRICE != QUALITY ... i am not saying IBM latops are bad here ... others are also equally good ... most Business laptops (HP atleast) have 3year warranty built into the price ... so you can save the 250$ even with education discount ... on a refurb ... you have to pay 120$ for 3 year World wide warranty ... People just wake up and look arround !! IBM had to sell its business because in the PC world people resist being ripped off ... in the mac world the same thing continues and they hardly have a choice !!

 

[edwin.bossier]

Realistically, from an enthusiastic buyer of both pc and mac products

1. XP isn't that bad, rarely crashes... about equal crashes to the # of "spinning beachballs" I get
2. You are more interested in powerpoint/word/excel in a corporate enviroment rather than ilife/video/music (more a personal environment)
3. Cheaper - this is a positive and a negative. Macs are actually just as cheap as Pc's , but apple makes a huge gross margin (>30%) vs dell which is less than 10%. You are not paying for quality - you are paying for profits for the shareholders. This is often misunderstood. Case in point: you can get 2 dell 24" displays for the price of 1 23" apple display... profits are amazing at apple for a reason.. gross margins!
4. You need 100% compatibility with windows.. again usually a corporate issue with proprietary software
5. The customer support from apple is really hit or miss, similar to most PC makers. You can find an equal amount of disgruntled users from both.

I use both PC and Mac products. Macs for music/video/some powerpoint and PC for corporate work. it works well. There is enough cross compatibility. I don;t see why "switch" is a big deal. I happily use both products and I am very satisfied with both. 10 years ago, both products cost a lot more and offered a lot less. Everything else in the world except high technology has increased in price. I am happy with both.

At last some common sense! Thank you! Ik hate al that 'switch' crap. I never 'switched' but I use Mac's as well as PC's with equal pleasure...

 

[Veldek]

Yes Indeed you can get two 24" dell flat panels for the cost of 1 23" ACD ... please look here: www.deals2buy.com

dell 24" -780 shipped .... ACD 1500$ + tax

I probably have not seen a more naive argument. I think there was a review i guess at anandtech that says the panels totally the same

And how can a 23" and a 24" panel be the same? This point already weakens your argumentation. (What's true is that the 20" panels used by Apple and Dell are the same.)

You are getting confused on margin on a single product vs average margin ... DELL makes more money of large deals Servers etc where as apple makes out of home users ... ipod margins are close to 15-10% or even less and that is the bulk of the revenue ... so they could be ripping you off dearly ... it costs apple <265$ to make the Mac Mini you do the rest of the math!! Bottom line if you are a home user/student ..yes APPLE is RIPPING you off... for the the looks (and people are ready to pay for designer merchandise!) !!

Enough said!

Well, he made assumptions for his calculations and these assumptions might not be true. That doesn't make his calculations wrong.

And where can I find figures about how much it costs Apple to build their Macs (e.g. Mac mini <$265)? Do they also include R&D into these costs?

 

[budugu]

And how can a 23" and a 24" panel be the same? This point already weakens your argumentation. (What's true is that the 20" panels used by Apple and Dell are the same.)

Well, he made assumptions for his calculations and these assumptions might not be true. That doesn't make his calculations wrong.

And where can I find figures about how much it costs Apple to build their Macs (e.g. Mac mini <$265)? Do they also include R&D into these costs?

23 (viewable*) - as per apple and 24" -> dell ... which i pressume is the same as the resolution is exactly the same... 1920x1200 ... most of these panels conform to standards. it is the exact same thing as 21" and 22" CRTs .. your viewable is exactly the same 20.8" !!!

As a side note if people are not interested in making custom processors i doubt they will make custom LCD panels for Apple !

i read about the mac minis about a couple of months ago ... (from a pretty reliable source) ... i can look it up ...

from my basic math ... what matters is accurracy (assumptions _ solution are correct) and not just precession (correct calculations!) ... for it is largely useless with out accuracy

*panel could be larger

 

[Applespider]

For that reason, I advise people to get a PC if their one and only source of support is from a family member who knows nothing about Macs. For example, a senior citizen new to computers asked me for advice about getting a computer, and told me that everything would be set up by his PC-expert nephew.

I'd agree but I'd want to be sure that their PC-expert in the family really is an expert and not just someone who uses one that's already administered for them in a work environment and doesn't have a clue about the security aspects that you need to run yourself at home. If their PC-expert isn't comfortable with installing and configuring firewalls, anti-virus, willing to check the PC for spyware and comfortable with reinstalling Windows if necessary.

If not, then I'd be suggesting a Mac with the knowledge that I'd make myself available when it arrived to give a quick Mac tutorial and be on the end of a phone if there were problems (since chances are if there were PC problems that the 'expert' couldn't fix, I'd be getting calls too that I wouldn't be able to sort as easily)

 

[theISHkid]

1. Web development. You CAN NOT develop for IE on a Mac unless you either have a PC or have memorized every conceivable compatibility problem between Explorer and.. everybody else
2. Mac versions of PC software tend to be kinda chintsy, at least in my experience. Office v.X is ok but there *are* certain quirks between it and the industry-standard PC version. And then there's the Mac IE.. *shudders*
3. Considerably less choice when it comes to hardware and hardware upgrades. But thank god for USB and Firewire
4. Price, of course; and related to that, 'bang for your buck'. My dad just bought a brand new 3.2GHz PC for $700, monitor included. That was a steal, but it's not unheard of. Apple doesn't even offer speeds that high, and to get close to it you'll have to shell out $3000. Blahblahblah, megahertz myth, come on: deep down you all know it's true that Apple's behind (as, indeed, the folks who've received the Developer Macintels have now confirmed...)
5. If you're expecting a cure to all that ails you in the PC world, think again -- Macs do crash, they can be painfully slow, and their software is sometimes buggy. The lack of viruses/spyware is true (then again, it's also true that it's very easy to run a spyware-free PC without much effort. The key: completely ditch Internet Explorer and any program that uses the IE browser control), but a lot of the other stuff you hear about OS X is just hype.
6. As far as software goes, backwards compatibility is practically a forbidden concept. By way of contrast, old shareware programs written for Windows 3.1 in 1992 still run perfectly fine on my XP SP1 laptop (and yes, I still use them, dadgummit!).
7. Every year and a half when Apple releases a new minor upgrade to OS X they treat it like it's a brand spanking new OS -- and expect you to pay for it. To a longtime PC user, this sounds utterly ridiculous and inappropriate. Tiger is little more than OS X Service Pack 4, with some cute bells and whistles thrown in.
8. iLemmings, and the possibility of being perceived as one

..oops, that was a little more than 5. Well, as you can tell I'm not totally enamored of Apple. Don't get me wrong: I could probably write a list thrice as long for reasons TO switch, as I myself will be doing just as soon as they can get their act together and release the next Mini. But let us not be blind to their faults.

1. Completely wrong about web design, not to mention that this is more of a software issue versus a mac/pc issue. In dreamweaver there are a few bugs such as scroll down behaviors acting funny on a mac, but if you know how to clean up your code you can eliminate most problems. Code is code... it might look slightly different (because you're looking at a different monitor) but that's just computer to computer, not mac to pc.

2. This isn't really fair to say... what problems are you having with which programs? We run pc/mac offices with pretty much the same software photoshop, studio mx 2004, quicktime, avid, etc. Not to mention certain games warcraft, sims 1 & 2. I've never really had too many problems with either platform. Sometimes installation is harder on windows because it can't find certain drivers or it's missing a .dll where "usually" as long as you have the requirements on the box with a mac we don't have any problems.

3. I think this is one of the biggest myths in the mac community, that you cannot update your mac. Video cards, sound cards, modems, processors, memory, hard drives... it can all be done with a mac. "Technically" it is more expensive to upgrade a mac, but that's because they make you upgrade to a quality part that is tested to work with the mac. You can't just go pick up a $50 video card from walmart and plug it in like you can with a pc...

4. Check out a while back (might have been a year or so) a pcworld/macworld article comparing (as close as possible) dollar for dollar testing of mac vs pc. I will admit that the pc won 60 percent of the test but they were all very close (yes even the ones that the mac won, they did not blow each other away). Keep in mind this was dollar for dollar. Complain about macs being expensive... but if you want your pc to equal the mac you're gonna have to shell out the dough too.
Now at the same time you got a great deal on your pc... my friend bought a 1000 dollar dell about 6 months ago that he is having so many problems with he is considering throwing away... this does not happen to everyone but what good is buying a cheaper computer if all you're getting is a "cheaper" computer. You still hear people talking about using macs that are 7 and 8 years old because the things were built to last. Again I'm sure there are pc users that have the same old computers... but they don't brag about it.

5. You are completely right here... macs are not a cure all for crashes and bugs. For some strange reason when running a program I might get a "program quit" error every now and then... it happens to both. I think the only difference is that with a mac if you have a problem with software your whole computer won't quit (blue screen of death), the program will just shut down.
Now here's what I find funny... you say it's easy to avoid spyware and viruses on a PC if you "completely ditch Internet Explorer and any program that uses the IE browser control"... aren't you the same person talking about how great IE is on a PC over a mac and that IE sucks on a mac, and how you can't design for IE on a mac yet you can on a PC? How are you gonna ditch the entire browser if it's so much better on a PC? And you say to avoid these problems you have to get rid of IE on the PC... well why do I not have to get rid of IE on my Mac? I don't have any viruses... hmmm. Maybe it's not just the browser but the coding and security issues of the pc. That's something to think about.

6. Don't really have much to say here about backwards compatibility... I know I have tried to run some older games on a newer PC and usually have problems because the system runs the old game too fast. Classic runs older mac software just fine for me but maybe I'm not trying to run old enough software for the comparison. However this is not really even worth bringing up because a new user of any computer pc or mac is probably not going to go find software from 5 years ago that they would rather use.

7. It's kind of funny that you mention apple releasing new software just to get more money every year... lets see... microsoft released windows 95, and then came out with windows 98, windows ME, Windows 2000, and windows xp; I'll have to check my old credit card statements but I'm pretty sure I had to pay for those updates... maybe you got them for free though?
Apple releases updates to each system 10.3.1, 10.3.2, 10.3.3, etc, that pretty much equal the service packs that microsoft sends out. Lets also not forget that the new updated osx cost $113.88 at macmall.com; while windows xp professional that is getting old is 208.99 for the upgrade and 309.49 if you need a fresh copy. Now you can argue that "you gave the price for professional and not home," well apple gives you "everything" for that price... to get "everything" for your pc will cost you two to three times as much. Now that's food for thought and something to think about when considering total cost and not just initial hardware cost.

8. ok...



I'm sorry for the long rant... this guy just almost sounds like a pc user that has a friend with a mac and is pissed off by it. I'm sure that's not the case so sorry if I offended you... He brings up a lot of good points that macs are not perfect, that pretty much goes without saying for pc's. You have to remember that a computer is a computer, they all have the same basic components, but it's how those components interact with each other (which is what apple does right when making their computers as opposed to throwing in parts that work but not as well together with companies like Dell.
I am a pc user turn mac user a few years ago and will never again use a pc for my primary computer again. I will probably always have a pc but I too like so many others made the "switch." If you want my honest opinion of problems with a mac... I would say that it takes games a lot longer to come out on the mac... I think sims 2 took about 6 months longer before it came. Also it's a little weird getting used to a single button mouse but after you learn a few of the keyboard shortcuts you really don't have a need for it. I think one user posted that you could not hook up a 2 button usb mouse to a mac but that is also incorrect. My mouse went out on my mac so I used one of my pc mouses and it worked just fine for a while. Of course by then I was so used to a single button that I was glad to get my apple mouse back. Another thing is the initial cost of the system... it may be a little higher but you're getting (in my opinion) a much more quality machine.

That's about all the reasons I have for not getting a mac... but I want to give you a couple of good reasons to get one... you can pretty much just plug something in and it works... I have bought wacom tablets, external hard drives, microphones, cameras, etc and they all come with cds and manuals. Read those manuals they are hilarious... 30 steps for installing on pc's... then you read the mac side... Step 1: Plug device in. Thank you for buying. Also for a new user to a mac... the greatest thing is the ease of learning the system. If you think about how much time it took you to learn windows you might be discouraged about learning a new system but it is really easy and you'll have a lot of fun doing it. Windows has tried to make their system easier to use but I really think they just caused more problems with XP... I don't hate the system I just know more people that curse at it than applaude it. That's my rant... hope it helps... hope I didn't offend anyone.

 

[Diatribe]

1) Browsing on MAC is next to hopeless! IE probably is the fastest but i cannot tell the difference from mozilla (any platform - HPUX /solaris / windows) ... Safari simply is darn slow to load and i am not getting into all compatibility issues here

Yeah, whatever. I don't know what version of Safari you're using but Safari smokes the **** out of IE and Firefox is only marginally faster. And compatibility? I have met like two pages that didn't work and for that there's always Firefox. Then again I regularly find pages that don't work with IE.

For all this they cost a heck a lot less and can run any OS of your choice ...

The HARDWARE costs less. Once you get all the software you want and consider the total cost of ownership they're at least equal, but I guess it is easier to say that the purchase price is lower... lol

Apart from look at me i am cool .... and some how superior to rest of the people attitude because i use a mac... (which these forms are full of!) there is probably little that people on windows miss on Mac OS X ...

That's only because people haven't used OS X... how can you miss sth. you haven't used yet?

Anyway, if you're content with your limited view on the topic, that's fine with me. Ignorance is bliss as they say.

 

[Mord]

but apple makes a huge gross margin (>30%) vs dell which is less than 10%.

partly because apple has to put that money into OS R&D.

 

[DarkNetworks]

One reason is probally enough, Macs are slow!
Are they?

 

[Diatribe]

One reason is probally enough, Macs are slow!
Are they?

Yep, real slow, they can't even run the 60 yard dash in under 10 minutes. Don't buy one.

 

[After G]

1) Browsing on MAC is next to hopeless! IE probably is the fastest but i cannot tell the difference from mozilla (any platform - HPUX /solaris / windows) ...

Well if you can use Mozilla (Firefox, anyone?) on Mac OS X and speed without comfort makes you happy then ... I say go for it. I prefer the "fit and finish" of Safari, something which is hard to quantify, but all the same I prefer it.

2) Compatibility ... it is picking up but if you use PDAs and other printers (other than HP) etc ... you will end up spending a lot of money on poorly written software ... cell phones may be an exception

Well I have a Samsung laser printer and it works fine for me with the default driver ... does that mean I spent my money poorly? Generalizations make weak arguments.

3) Connectivity ... any thing with a GUI plainly costs money ... SSH/SFTP clients are free on windows where as transmit is 25$ ... (ofcourse you can use ssh/sftp from command line) ... Messengers ... only ichat (with video/audio) ... and it will not work properly if you have a person even on AIM / Windows! Most VPNs and other stuff ....

Well that's the good thing about Mac OS X ... if you don't want to pay, you can always write your own interface to command line SSH/SFTP, and there's nothing wrong with the command line ... as for Messengers and VPNs ... now this is something to complain about. I'll give you this one, though people are always working on it. Personally, I like Adium and I don't miss too much from video chat ... but I remember how frustrating it is on Windows to use anything other than a webcam for video chat. I tried using a Firewire camcorder. Had the hardest time on Windows. Plugged it into my Mac and it worked fine. So there's two sides to every story.

4) you write any decent software ... you are F***ed ... the learning curve is totally stupid ... No standard C++/C libs ... all the apple marketing crap aside you have to learn objective -c and that darn thing is not useful any where else! Also add the backward compatibility ... any thing written for 10.4 does not work in 10.3 and in 10.3 will not work in 10.2 ... you can go on ...

I thought Objective-C was a superset of C ... or am I completely in the wrong here?

5) hardware incompatibilities ... from RAM to usb connectors ... DVD writers and what not ...

I tend to find that most crappy hardware is not supported by Mac OS X. I mean in a $300 Dell you truly get what you pay for...

6) Hopelessly slow burning ....my HP laptop burns DVD faster (with an external DVD drive - USB 2.0 based for you Firewire fanatics) than Dual G5 1.8 Ghz without any other single process running... both at 8X and you can go on ....

Try burning that DVD on your HP with 20 other programs running. Mac OS X will handle it gracefully. Windows will not. Linux could, but getting started with burning may be a problem if you are a beginner. I remember it was for me.

Apart from look at me i am cool .... and some how superior to rest of the people attitude because i use a mac... (which these forms are full of!) there is probably little that people on windows miss on Mac OS X ...

If you buy a computer just to look cool, you have some self-image issues.

Now for some real reasons why NOT to buy a Mac:
(1) You support the Open Source Software movement.
Now, I remember that there are some fanatics that will not buy any sort of proprietary software in the Linux camp. It's a reason not to buy Mac OS X. I mean the roots are open source, but the GUI is closed ... so it's no go for these kinds of guys. Personally, I like it closed. If it's open, you get the mess that is the Linux GUI. But it's a reason.

(2) Gaming.
Sad to say, but if you don't go for the $5/$10 time killers, and want games like Half-Life 2, then you shouldn't buy a Mac to game. PC Games really are for PCs. Honestly, though, the Mac only misses out on things like RTS and FPS where a mouse/kb is the best control, and a gaming fix can be had with a console. Personally, I can't wait for new consoles. If a console can help you get your gaming fix, it's about as cheap as a PC. Try serious gaming on that $300 Dell ... hahaha. Real gamers will laugh at you more than I am right now.

(3) You feel insecure with having only one motherboard manufacturer.
Some people like flexibility in their hardware choices. Personally I see this as a non-issue because BSD runs on every imaginable processor out there. And Apple can convert to any processor architecture if they feel like it, just like they're doing right now. And with Windows, really you only have the choice of Intel or AMD, and only on X86. There used to be a PPC version, but nobody bought it. It's really a duopoly. This is in contrast to the early days of computing, when EVERYONE was a hardware vendor, and sold software to supplement the hardware. Much like Apple is doing today.

(4) Esoteric specialty operations.
Let's face it. Because anyone can brew up a PC, people can make apps for it that just aren't available on the Mac. Things I can think of are CAD/CAM/CAE or business software built in-house. I just wish they in-housed it on Macs instead, but that's wishful thinking.

Well, other than that, there's really no reason not to buy a Mac for your own personal use. Apples are intended for home users, and I see nothing wrong with not supporting everything and anything. It makes the Mac more stable. And there's no reason you can't buy a PC for those special things. Just make sure you need it. Goodness that was long winded ...

 

[chaosbunny]

So you're saying the amount of money Apple pays for its products is around the same as Dell would pay for a similar product. That's untrue. And if it were, it still wouldn't take away from the fact that most Dells are cheaper than Macs for consumers (i.e., everyone on Macrumors) and that Dells are a better deal in the short run.

Apple's gross margin last quarter was not over 30%. It was a little bit less (29.8% or something). That's compared to Dell's 18% gross margin. So yes, Apple does charge a premium for their products. But those numbers also tell us that Apple does spend more money on one of of its 23 inch displays than Dell does on one of its 24 inch display. If you can buy two 24 inch displays for the price on one 23 inch Apple display, and one of the Dell displays costs the same as one of Apple's 23 inch displays (as you said, each of the products cost the same when the companies manufacture them), then Dell's gross margin would have to be negative...Dell would lose money if it sold such an expensive display so cheaply.

Of course, we have to assume that Apple has around a 30% gross margin on its 23 inch display:

So Apple's display (retails at $1500) gives Apple a profit of $450. Gross margin = 450/1500 = 30%. This means that that display costs $1050 for Apple to make (1500 - 450 = 1050).

There is no way Dell could sell two displays that cost $1050 for them to make for a mere $1500.

But if we assume that Dell has a 18% gross margin on its 24 inch displays...

...then Dell's two displays (together retailing for $1500 -- as you said) give Dell a total profit of $270. That means that Dell must pay around $615 to make one of its 24 inch displays ([1500 - 270] / 2 = 615). To check those figures: gross margin = 135 / 750 (<-- 750 = the retail cost of one Dell displays) = 18%.

So...there you have it. Dell's larger 24 inch display costs about $415 less than Apple's 23 inch display. PCs actually are cheaper than macs...lol

---

Let me add that of course you are paying for the design of the apple display. Designers need to get payed too. Putting a display into a black plastic frame isn't much work, but getting that display to look cool in a silver reduced alu frame is an underestimated amount of time and money. It's the same thing with cars, clothes etc.

 

[sbb155]

As far as price, everyone knows macs are a total ripoff for what you get hardware wise. Hopefully it will change when mactels come out. However, I bought mac because I like the hardware and I am willing to accept those inredibly high gross margins because I have no choice. But I am not stupid enough to ignore the financial statements... Apple is making a ton of $$ from gross margins, way more than dell, and that is why macs are more expensive on the hardware end. We mac users are suckers for tolerating such high profits, but we keep buying and that keeps prices high. But quality? Ha. It is about profits - that is why gross margins are high. Financial statements cannot be ignored. It is all about putting money in the apple shareholders' pockets - WHO ARE MOSTLY PC USERS!!! Isn;t that ironic! PC users are profiting off of the mac cult's buying prowess. Kind of makes you sick, huh? So when we overpay for a mac, we are putting $$ into shareholders pockets, the majority of whom purchase PCs.... If that isnt a financial lesson for you, then what can we say?
Thank goodness I can afford macs, and I don;t care about the margins. But, that is the reality.

 

[Hattig]

...About dell...

Don't forget Dell's direct sale mechanism. Apple sells via its stores and third party retailers in addition to its online store, and the price is the same at all of them.

If Apple is making 30% margin over the manufacturing cost, and the store has 30% margin, then, err, a $1000 device is around $600 for Apple to make*.

Dell has 18% margin. They sell the same $600 device for $710 because they also avoid the store markup.

* I don't know how the Apple store profits are calculated into the 30% profit margin figures.

 

[Hattig]

It is all about putting money in the apple shareholders' pockets.

I thought that Apple didn't pay dividends.

 

[admford]

1) Browsing on MAC is next to hopeless! IE probably is the fastest but i cannot tell the difference from mozilla (any platform - HPUX /solaris / windows) ... Safari simply is darn slow to load and i am not getting into all compatibility issues here

Granted that Safari versions before 2.0 were slow, since it was a new project from Apple. Over the iterations it had, general browsing speed and rendering speed has improved greatly. As for compatibility? try the Acid2 test in IE. Currently only Safari (with new webkit compiled) and Konqueror (open source browser based on Apple's Webkit) have passed it successfully.

2) Compatibility ... it is picking up but if you use PDAs and other printers (other than HP) etc ... you will end up spending a lot of money on poorly written software ... cell phones may be an exception

Hmmm.... At the university that I go to, there are tons of printers from various companies. Lexmark, Cannon, Epson, Brother and yes, HP. They all seem to work fine with my PowerBook whenever I need to print something. Same thing goes for various plotters. PDA sync? PocketMac Pro is the best way to go if you need software that will sync your PocketPC pda, or Windows Mobile phone. Provides full integration with iCal, Address Book and iSync. Plus it has the possibility to install applications onto the palm top. Palm even with it's OS 5 is still quite compatible with Macs thankfully enough.

3) Connectivity ... any thing with a GUI plainly costs money ... SSH/SFTP clients are free on windows where as transmit is 25$ ... (ofcourse you can use ssh/sftp from command line) ... Messengers ... only ichat (with video/audio) ... and it will not work properly if you have a person even on AIM / Windows! Most VPNs and other stuff ....

Ok, so FTP in Mac OS X is a pain in the butt at times. But you can use the "Connect to Server" command in Finder to browse through FTP shares without any problems. As for chat clients, well Yahoo IM is available natively, MSN is going to be updated soon, AIM is available natively, so is ICQ. If you don't want that, then try AdiumX, which is like Trillian for the Mac. Still not a 1.0 version yet, but it works nicely.

4) you write any decent software ... you are F***ed ... the learning curve is totally stupid ... No standard C++/C libs ... all the apple marketing crap aside you have to learn objective -c and that darn thing is not useful any where else! Also add the backward compatibility ... any thing written for 10.4 does not work in 10.3 and in 10.3 will not work in 10.2 ... you can go on ...

No standard C++/C libs? Learning curve too high? Ummm... I'm a programmer that has experiance in Borland C/C++ (which is ANSI C/C++ compatible) and I have to say that I've not really encountered any such problems. Apple provides a very good tutorial and documents with any version of XCode, so that if you know how to program in C/C++, you can program in Carbon quite fast. While the Coacoa libraries are Objective C, which is quite a bit harder to learn, it's not impossible. Plus, the developement enviroment in XCode is quite friendly for the average user who's getting started in programming. As for compatibility with older OS versions, well it's just a case of library use at most times, but to put it into prospective, only software that needs a specific quality of a version of Mac OS X will not work properly before it. And most of these cases, it usually comes down to a graphics library version.

5) hardware incompatibilities ... from RAM to usb connectors ... DVD writers and what not ...

Ummmm... Incompatible RAM??? Yes it's true that Apple did make certain types of RAM incompatible with Macs, but that was around four to three years ago with G4 PowerMacs that used PC133 RAM. Currently you can go to any store, get a SODIMM or DIMM of DDR 333 or 400 RAM and plug it into any one of your Macs easily. USB connector incompatibility? That I don't understand, get a converter for the connector. If you mean chipset, I've tested a number of USB 2.0 products that were only ment for PCs, and they worked fine on my Macs. I've got a Bluetooth dongle attached to my PowerMac from Hauppage that doesn't support Mac OS X at all, but still it works nicely. Certain DVD writers are problematic when connecting to a Mac, that's true. It usually comes down to the standard drivers Apple makes in the OS to cover the drives it uses in it's Macs. Known to most Mac users, Pioneer drives are the ones most compatible at the moment, but there's a piece of software that in a way replaces the drivers used in Mac OS X and allows compatibility with most applications for almost any DVD writer now (called "Patchburn").

6) Hopelessly slow burning ....my HP laptop burns DVD faster (with an external DVD drive - USB 2.0 based for you Firewire fanatics) than Dual G5 1.8 Ghz without any other single process running... both at 8X and you can go on ....

I dunno, My drives burn at normal speeds, if you're talking about something like a couple minutes difference then I just don't see it. For my usual burning I never use OS X's standard Finder function, I just pull out Roxio's Toast and away I burn. Burning speed usually depends ont he speed of the medium. Put in a 4x DVD-R, and on the Mac you can't burn it at 8x, And I don't believe it's possible to do that on a PC either. Firewire vs. USB 2.0, mind I say one thing on this? Just give it up. Both standards are well designed, while Firewire will always work at about 400MB, many companies advertise their products as being USB 2.0, while not activating the high speed data rates it can use. These things depend on the product and the company that makes it, and at times 480MB/s isn't required (like mice). Each standard has it's good points and bad points, on Macs it's your choice to use what you want, since both USB 2.0 and Firewire are on all current Macs.

Most of the people hardly would have seen a latest generation windows laptops ... ever see the new HP business notebooks (<1.2" think) ? and new dell 700m is not bad either ... i do agree that old dells look horrible ... I have never had a Virus or Spyware on any of the machines so far ... and yes i donot even spend 2 mins on maintaining them every day ... just get the regular updates and you can even automate them ... For all this they cost a heck a lot less and can run any OS of your choice ... Networking for a layman is probably the single most impressive thing about Mac OSX and windows systems are not that behind ... Last but not the least .... i hardly ever switch off my computers ...laptops/workstations .... and they have not crashed in the recent past that i can (workstations over a year) think of.

Running the OS of your choice? Well, other than Mac OS X, ther's Linux for PPC in various flavors (Debian and Gentoo for example). You can emulate Windows on a Mac without any major problems, other than speed. But the same goes even more so for emulating Mac OS X on a Windows machine (i.e. PearPC). My PowerMac runs as a graphics workstation and file server at the dorm where I am, it's been up for over a year, the only times i've had to reboot are when I update the system's software. Automated updates are possible with Macs, but as for protection, they require the admin's password to install (something that Microsoft is implementing in Longhorn too). As for the aesthetics of PC laptops, they're starting to catch on that good looks help sales. The thiness of these new PC laptops is only thanks to the new Intel Pentium-M processors and AMD's Turion. If you want a desktop processor in a notebook, either way you'll end up "hot and heavy".

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apart from look at me i am cool .... and some how superior to rest of the people attitude because i use a mac... (which these forms are full of!) there is probably little that people on windows miss on Mac OS X ...

For every person, an OS of their liking. I've sold off all my windows machines now and i'm quite happy with my Macs. Though I'm not saying that everyone should get one, it depends on your tastes and what you need to do on a computer. Yes I do "evangelise" Macs to a point, but only when I see people who are undecided about what type of a computer to buy. Many of them don't even think of getting a Mac because, well they think they're incompatible or something similar. I'm only giving all the information that one can use to make an informed purchase, i'm not running around screaming "GET A MAC! GET A MAC!". Certain computers are better suited for certain people, and making an informed buy is important to the customer's satisfaction.

I'll probably be the only one here that will out right say that even though Mac OS X is great as an OS for stability and ease of use, if you're doing very heavy graphics work such as 3D modeling, and need to render on one machine, and don't have that much of a limiting budget. It's better to get a good PC with a professional PCI-Express video card, since the PowerMac G5's main bottleneck is the AGP 8x bus which hampers it's graphics performance in games and 3D rendering. But a family who's parents want to keep an eye on their children's browsing and work, but who don't know enough about computers to fix them if there is a virus or spyware on them, a Mac is a perfect choice. There may be less games, but at least the games are good ones.

So don't just go against Macs or any other platform blindly. Do your research and then try to post something more reasonable. Please.

 

[derboy]

1. If you are a proper designer. Any professional 3D program will not be available on the mac. Only programs for other "creative professionals"!

2. Chances of getting the latest technology in a mac are small.

3. Design Team can only work on one thing at a time. (year of the laptop) (Putting a G5 chip in a desktop)

4. Apples high rated opinion of itself. In relation to treating its dealers and customers.

5. The amount of spin put on apple "innovation." Then move on to completely dismiss it (64 bit) or to publicly congratulate themselves on thier greatness. (people having to buy another version of OS X)

 

[admford]

1. If you are a proper designer. Any professional 3D program will not be available on the mac. Only programs for other "creative professionals"!

Ummmm.. I routinely use Maya 6.5 on a Mac, that I would consider quite a professional 3D program.

 

[Diatribe]

As far as price, everyone knows macs are a total ripoff for what you get hardware wise. Hopefully it will change when mactels come out. However, I bought mac because I like the hardware and I am willing to accept those inredibly high gross margins because I have no choice. But I am not stupid enough to ignore the financial statements... Apple is making a ton of $$ from gross margins, way more than dell, and that is why macs are more expensive on the hardware end. We mac users are suckers for tolerating such high profits, but we keep buying and that keeps prices high. But quality? Ha. It is about profits - that is why gross margins are high. Financial statements cannot be ignored. It is all about putting money in the apple shareholders' pockets - WHO ARE MOSTLY PC USERS!!! Isn;t that ironic! PC users are profiting off of the mac cult's buying prowess. Kind of makes you sick, huh? So when we overpay for a mac, we are putting $$ into shareholders pockets, the majority of whom purchase PCs.... If that isnt a financial lesson for you, then what can we say?
Thank goodness I can afford macs, and I don;t care about the margins. But, that is the reality.

Sure. That statement would have been true a year ago but now? Apple's price do still contain a premium but that is so low it's nothing to get worked up over. Dell has none of the following...

- R&D costs for both software and hardware
- Support for software
- Retail stores

As soon as Dell has those we'll talk again.

 

[derboy]

Ummmm.. I routinely use Maya 6.5 on a Mac, that I would consider quite a professional 3D program.

Maya is an annimation program, Which is lovely. However if you want to really get into design, where stuff actually gets made then the point is still valid. What program do you think Jon Ive's team use to computerise thier industrial design. Certainly aint mac based.

Sorry to burst the bubble - admford.

 

[admford]

Maya is an annimation program, Which is lovely. However if you want to really get into design, where stuff actually gets made then the point is still valid. What program do you think Jon Ive's team use to computerise thier industrial design. Certainly aint mac based.

Sorry to burst the bubble - admford.

No need for the eek emoticon. Maya is not only an animation but a generic modeling program. It certainly doesn't model objects like let say, Catia or Autocad does (since Maya only does the "skin" of the oject). How ever it's more than usefull for the average user. If you want a true 3D Cad program for Macs. Get Vectorworks 11.5.