Toyota sales top GM, Ford.

Xtremehkr

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Jul 4, 2004
1,897
0
Link.

SOUTHFIELD, Mich. - Toyota Motor Corp., Japan's largest automaker, overtook General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. in U.S. retail market share in early October as auto sales plunged after domestic automakers' ended employee-discount offers, according to an industry report.

Toyota gained four points of U.S. market share in the first nine days of October, to 18.2 percent, according to data from the Power Information Network. GM's sales fell 57 percent and Ford's fell 45 percent as sales in the U.S. auto industry dropped 33 percent from a year earlier. The figures don't include fleet sales, which can account for 30 percent of domestic automakers' sales, Power said.

"The aftermath of the employee-pricing programs is having a dramatic impact on automotive retail sales in October," Jeff Schuster, executive director of global forecasting at J.D. Power and Associates, said Friday. "A lot could happen between now and the end of the month, but at this point, we're on track for an October like we haven't seen since the early 1990s."

GM, Ford, and DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler scored sharp gains in U.S. sales earlier this summer by offering consumers the same discounts that employees pay. The programs helped clear out 2005 models before losing steam. The automakers discontinued the offers this month in hopes that the 2006 models would sell without generous incentives.

GM's early October sales decline prompted Standard & Poor's Equity analyst Efraim Levy on Friday to lower his fourth-quarter earnings forecast on GM by 97 percent to 69 cents a share. GM reports third-quarter earnings Monday. Levy and 17 analysts surveyed by Thomson Financial expect GM to report its fourth-consecutive quarterly loss.

A lot could change before the end of the month, said Jim Sanfilippo, senior analyst at Automotive Marketing Consultants Inc. in Bloomfield Hills, Mich. He estimates that 20 percent of sales are booked on the last day of any month.

Ford's chief sales analyst, George Pipas, said Thursday that October sales would likely fall because the employee discounts spurred customers to buy sooner than they might have. Ford's sales dropped 20 percent in September.

Through September, fleet sales accounted for 28 percent of Ford's sales, 25 percent of GM's sales and 25 percent of Chrysler's sales, spokespeople for the firms said. Toyota's fleet sales average 6 percent to 7 percent of sales, a Toyota spokesman said.
Ok, time for GM and Ford to start making a comeback, anytime in the near future would be good.
 

yoda13

macrumors 65816
Sep 26, 2003
1,460
0
Texas
I agree, but I have finally given up on the domestics and now a Nissan and a Honda reside in my driveway. :eek:
 

iDM

macrumors 6502a
I was raised in a strict American only car household and what i'm sure is going to really grind my dad's gears will be when i pick up my first car that is a non-gas guzzling Japanese import.

Still being angry after 50 years at a company that makes CARS not bombs, puts AMERICANS to work, usually uses less fuel, and almost always last longer(mileage) i think is a good thing.

I will not let pride stand in the way of a superior longer lasting, cheaper, more fuel efficiency and often better looking car purchase.
 

katie ta achoo

macrumors G3
May 2, 2005
9,170
2
I hope this trend continues.

Face it, it's cheaper and easier to manufacture NOT in the US. Labor costs are WAY lower. it's allllll good.

they also make more fuel-efficient vehicles. OH YES!


but then again, I've been involved with Macroecon for too long, so outsourcing doesn't bother me. It's better for the economy as a whole, GLOBALIZATION WOO!!!

/Ph.D. HERE I COME!
//BAM!
 

bousozoku

Moderator emeritus
Jun 25, 2002
13,951
3
Gone but not forgotten.
I'm not thrilled that the domestic car makers are running into problems but they seem to have done what was necessary and sat on what success they'd grown.

I would hope that they'd go for a more aggressive approach to automaking, similar to what Chrysler has done. Ford has had its moments but GM seem to pay more attention to price-cutting than to creating efficient cars and small, great cars.
 

mad jew

Moderator emeritus
Apr 3, 2004
32,194
6
Adelaide, Australia
It was just a matter of time. A similar thing is happening in Australia although for different reasons. The two major local manufacturers (Ford and Holden) have stuck to making large, powerful RWD sedans predominantly but the petrol prices are really hacking into the sales. For one of the first times in ages, a small Toyota hatchback (Corolla) outsold the current darling of our industry; the Holden Commodore, last month. :(
 

iJon

macrumors 604
Feb 7, 2002
6,557
36
katie ta achoo said:
I hope this trend continues.

Face it, it's cheaper and easier to manufacture NOT in the US. Labor costs are WAY lower. it's allllll good.
I'm not positive but I think almost all the Toyota's for the American market are produced here in North America.

jon
 

bousozoku

Moderator emeritus
Jun 25, 2002
13,951
3
Gone but not forgotten.
iJon said:
I'm not positive but I think almost all the Toyota's for the American market are produced here in North America.

jon
Indeed, they are, though those made under the Lexus brand are not.

Toyota have at least partly assembled small pickups in the U.S.A. since the early 1970s to avoid the tariffs. I believe the full-size pickup, the Corolla/Matrix, and the Camry are all built locally in this country for now.

There was another thread talking about their problems with U.S. workers' education and their desire to move things to Canada.
 

katie ta achoo

macrumors G3
May 2, 2005
9,170
2
iJon said:
I'm not positive but I think almost all the Toyota's for the American market are produced here in North America.

jon

Bla. Serves me right for not googlin' before postin'.

cursed google, why aren't you built right into my brain?
 

fklehman

macrumors regular
Sep 19, 2005
199
0
Newark, DE
I drive a Honda that gets 38 miles per gallon. Wouldn't buy anything but a Toyota or Honda these days because their cars are more reliable and last WAY longer. They hold their value because they'll last you 200,000 miles before they croak. Can't say that about many Frods or Chevys and that's why you wouldn't catch me dead in one. They pumped out SUVs for years with no social conscience at all, so I won't shed a tear if they go belly up--as long as the executives' golden parachutes get liquidated and shared among the workers. It's good to see more Americans buying foreign cars that get better mileage, and I can only hope that gas stays at $3 a gallon for a long time to come. Doesn't bother me any because I bought responsibly. I laugh at all the poor sods paying $100 to fill up their SUVs because Europe's been paying those prices for years and it's time Americans got used to the fact that oil is not infinite. I have no sympathy for Ford or Chevy and I hope they go bankrupt and die, and in the meantime I hope gas hits $5 a gallon to punish all the idiots who bought SUVs to drive 3 miles on paved road to the grocery store. Flame away.
 

quagmire

macrumors 603
Apr 19, 2004
6,255
1,063
bousozoku said:
Indeed, they are, though those made under the Lexus brand are not.

Toyota have at least partly assembled small pickups in the U.S.A. since the early 1970s to avoid the tariffs. I believe the full-size pickup, the Corolla/Matrix, and the Camry are all built locally in this country for now.

There was another thread talking about their problems with U.S. workers' education and their desire to move things to Canada.
If your Toyota starts with a J in the serial number, then it is built in Japan. If it has a U or something like that, it is built in the US.
 

Abstract

macrumors Penryn
Dec 27, 2002
24,378
110
Location Location Location
I'm not American, so I guess a GM, Ford, or Chrysler would be an import to me. :p

Anyway, I'm glad they're all suffering. They sold the most ridiculous cars for such a long time. They're either large and crappy, medium-sized and crappy, or small and crappy. I don't think their high level of sales in the past has reflected customer satisfaction with their new cars. It may take a decade for reputation to catch up with sales, no matter how strong brand loyalty may be, but their bad rep and poor customer experiences over the past 10-15 years with their new cars is taking it's toll.

I don't care who makes the car. I just want the best that my money can buy, and right now, it happens to be Japanese cars. When American companies make a quality product for many consecutive years, and their reputation is high again, it'll be okay.
 

bousozoku

Moderator emeritus
Jun 25, 2002
13,951
3
Gone but not forgotten.
Abstract said:
I'm not American, so I guess a GM, Ford, or Chrysler would be an import to me. :p

Anyway, I'm glad they're all suffering. They sold the most ridiculous cars for such a long time. They're either large and crappy, medium-sized and crappy, or small and crappy. I don't think their high level of sales in the past has reflected customer satisfaction with their new cars. It may take a decade for reputation to catch up with sales, no matter how strong brand loyalty may be, but their bad rep and poor customer experiences over the past 10-15 years with their new cars is taking it's toll.

I don't care who makes the car. I just want the best that my money can buy, and right now, it happens to be Japanese cars. When American companies make a quality product for many consecutive years, and their reputation is high again, it'll be okay.
I'm mostly thrilled with Chrysler and their minivans. My parents have the cheapest version and except for the local dealer putting off warranty claims that would have solved major problems in performance, they got a good deal. I've even considered one. The neon I drove felt pretty good but of course, there have been various issues.
 

Jon'sLightBulbs

macrumors 6502a
Jan 31, 2005
524
0
Chicago
fklehman said:
Flame away.
Wish granted. No matter how efficient your car is, at the current rate you'll still pay 3x the amount you paid when gas was 1 dollar. At 5 dollars, you'll still pay 5x the amount you did when gas was 1 dollar.

And crude oil prices affect the prices of much more than the gas you pump in your car. Every company delivering you packages, every company you buy retail from will raise their prices because everyone in their distribution chain has done the same. The rise in oil prices will force them to.

You'll pay again when you turn on your heat, if it's natural gas powered. You can laugh all you want at SUV drivers woes, but your little fuel miser import won't save you.

HTH.
 

iceTrX

macrumors regular
Aug 5, 2004
116
0
Outside of Detroit.
I'm gonna have to disagree with most of you in this thread since I'm from Detroit with a family history in the US auto industry. You guys should not encourage any American auto manufactures death, it would cause their suppliers to go bankrupt *cough* delphi* and would put many people here in Michigan (and throughout the US) out of work. This would not be cool as many people I know work for the US auto industry and the devastation from it toppling would ruin the local economy, michigans economy, and possibly the national economy. By the way I believe GM is trying with its compact cars. Look at the Chevrolet Cobalt, its a really competitive car to the Japanese compacts. I got a Cobalt Sedan LS Sport back in March and this thing is night and day from the car is replaced (Cavalier). The interior is beautiful and very comfortable (could use a little more rear interior room), the engine is fuel efficient and very modern (Adaptive Electronic Powersteering, drive by wire throttle, sequential fuel injection, twin cam, partial zero emissions, etc), and the car is just a joy to drive. I know GM built some crappy compact cars in the past but I encourage you guys to actually look into their newer stuff, its nice (by the way just don't shrug it off as another crappy GM product, drive one for awhile and try to convince me that its crap, because its not).
 

Xtremehkr

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Jul 4, 2004
1,897
0
iceTrX said:
I'm gonna have to disagree with most of you in this thread since I'm from Detroit with a family history in the US auto industry. You guys should not encourage any American auto manufactures death, it would cause their suppliers to go bankrupt *cough* delphi* and would put many people here in Michigan (and throughout the US) out of work. This would not be cool as many people I know work for the US auto industry and the devastation from it toppling would ruin the local economy, michigans economy, and possibly the national economy. By the way I believe GM is trying with its compact cars. Look at the Chevrolet Cobalt, its a really competitive car to the Japanese compacts. I got a Cobalt Sedan LS Sport back in March and this thing is night and day from the car is replaced (Cavalier). The interior is beautiful and very comfortable (could use a little more rear interior room), the engine is fuel efficient and very modern (Adaptive Electronic Powersteering, drive by wire throttle, sequential fuel injection, twin cam, partial zero emissions, etc), and the car is just a joy to drive. I know GM built some crappy compact cars in the past but I encourage you guys to actually look into their newer stuff, its nice (by the way just don't shrug it off as another crappy GM product, drive one for awhile and try to convince me that its crap, because its not).
I don't want to see them die, I want to see them compete. I reward quality of product. The Cobalt is a nice looking car, but only one model comes with that engine. It's reliability and quality over the long term has yet to be proven.
 

quagmire

macrumors 603
Apr 19, 2004
6,255
1,063
Xtremehkr said:
I don't want to see them die, I want to see them compete. I reward quality of product. The Cobalt is a nice looking car, but only one model comes with that engine. It's reliability and quality over the long term has yet to be proven.
The Ecotec 4 cylinder is in the Malibu/Pontiac G6 and the Chevy HHR. I agree though long term quality hasn't been tested yet. But, the engine should be solid though.
 

kenneth

macrumors newbie
Mar 12, 2005
11
0
I was raised in a strict American only car household
Hard to tell what that means these days. Many of the Toyotas sold in America were made in America. Many cars with American brand names are made in Mexico. I have owned both American and Japanese cars (by company brand name) and the difference is night and day in reliability and how long these cars last. I am driving in a 16 year old Toyota (runs great) and the next car will be a Toyota. GM can give their cars away for free and I would not switch.
 

Abstract

macrumors Penryn
Dec 27, 2002
24,378
110
Location Location Location
iceTrX said:
I'm gonna have to disagree with most of you in this thread since I'm from Detroit with a family history in the US auto industry. You guys should not encourage any American auto manufactures death, it would cause their suppliers to go bankrupt *cough* delphi* and would put many people here in Michigan (and throughout the US) out of work. This would not be cool as many people I know work for the US auto industry and the devastation from it toppling would ruin the local economy, michigans economy, and possibly the national economy.
Yeah, and?

Every company has to compete. If it can't compete, the company dies. I don't want to feel sorry for a company that has made poor products for 10-15 years and can't compete, and I certainly won't feel bad just because it's an American company. I also hope that the US government doesn't intervene and offer US car companies further tax breaks and stuff like that. These companies need to get their isht together, and this means being able to produce not only a good car, but a car that people actually WANT!

Sucky-ness has no political boundaries.
 

Dont Hurt Me

macrumors 603
Dec 21, 2002
6,056
6
Yahooville S.C.
My wife and i are looking for a new car next year and Toyota and Honda top the list. GM & Ford are lost in big fat corporate profits without ever looking to the future. They went throught the 70s but did these two do anything about MPG?? Nope these two were lobbing Congress so they wouldnt have to build cars that can get 30 - 40 mpg but the smart folks at Honda and Toyota kept working on Hybrids and economy knowing one day we would get hit with high gas prices. The sales are their reward

GM/Ford could have done the same. I guess it was easier to throw $$$ at Congress instead of throwing $$$ at R&D.
 

cube

macrumors P6
May 10, 2004
16,453
4,459
From some statistics I have seen, the most reliable brand is Subaru.
 

kjr39

macrumors 6502
Nov 26, 2004
374
3
This has been coming for a long time.

FWIW, I just moved from Detroit on the basis of economy there is going to be in for a long, tough road and I didn't want to be stuck with it. Thankfully, we were able to get our house sold.

I grew up in MI and my pop spent 40 years at GM. Myself, I made roughly 10 months at Ford before I figured out that the problems there are huge and I need to get the hell out of there. The 21st century hasn't hit in South Eastern Michigan yet. For some reason, people there (both blue and white collar workers) don't seem to understand that the day of working 30 years and then retiring on their pensions, is over! The union works overtime to ensure that they do everything in their power to scare workers into thinking that management is going to screw them over. Management does everything they can to be decades behind the curve by designing poor, misplaced products. The culture of the company is one of complacency and laziness. Too many people there have convinced themselves that they are so busy, they can't help you. The average work day seems to be about 6 hours for most folks. Especialy in the summer, where the offices are empty at about 3:30 or 4:00. Promotions are a matter of tenure and not ability.

If you still work and live in and around the Detroit area, here is my advice to you. MOVE! And move now. Take the hit on your property and get out. Don't convince yourself that cannot afford to lose a buck or two on your house. I lost money on mine and moved, found a job and with the difference in pay, I am already ahead. If you have family, visit during vacation and holidays, but get out. GM and Ford are going Ch. 11. They are going to break the unions. They will cut your pensions. The SE Michigan area has over a decade of decline ahead of it.

The culture of the area needs to change. I have been telling my father and any of his friends for years to save their money. For years, they laughed at me and told me that I didn't know what they were talking about. Well, "Ha-farking-Ha!"
 

Thomas Veil

macrumors 68020
Feb 14, 2004
2,435
5,528
OBJECTIVE reality
I'm probably gonna catch hell for this from the domestic car haters, but...the situation isn't as simple as some seem to think.

Yes, years ago, domestic manufacturers turned out oversized, junky cars. Believe it or not, it was not all their fault. Until the '70s oil crisis hit, Americans (not manufacturers) were in love with big, boat-sized cars. You can't fault the automakers for giving the people more of what they were buying. When the crisis hit, the Japanese were fortunate to be in prime position to be able to deliver small, more efficient cars.

What you can hit American manufacturers for, at least largely, was the poor quality of their cars. But even then, the American mentality was not how good the quality was, it was how cheap (inexpensive) the product was. I blame both consumers and manufacturers for pursuing that dead end.

The Japanese, seeing an opening, flooded the American market with imports -- some of which weren't a whole lot more reliable than American cars. What they were was more fuel-efficient...and in the 1970s, that was important.

The Japanese were not at all guiltless. While they sent tons of Toyotas and Datsuns over here, they made tons of excuses for keeping Chevys and Fords from reaching their shores. Trade was almost completely a one-way street. So while the American manufacturers had one foot in the grave, fumbling around trying (mostly without success) to produce small, high-mileage cars, Japan was helping them put the other foot in the grave via its protectionist practices.

The Japanese companies began building cars and buying parts in this country not out of the goodness of their hearts, but to avoid retaliatory protectionism movements in this country.

Nowadays, quality levels between the European, American and Japanese cars are extremely close. So not buying domestic because of the bad cars they used to make makes as much sense as buying American because the Japanese were protectionists.

With quality levels being so similar, I myself put more stock nowadays in style, features and price. I generally tend to favor American cars because of their clean, logical dash layouts and their styling.

Foreign hybrids tempted me for a while, but I'm disappointed that the mileage figures quoted seem to be overblown, and that overall cost of operation is very close to that of a standard combustion-engine automobile. It's also important to me that a car not be small and low-slung, because as you get older you find your body has much less tolerance for that sort of vehicle.
 

quagmire

macrumors 603
Apr 19, 2004
6,255
1,063
Thomas Veil said:
I'm probably gonna catch hell for this from the domestic car haters, but...the situation isn't as simple as some seem to think.

Yes, years ago, domestic manufacturers turned out oversized, junky cars. Believe it or not, it was not all their fault. Until the '70s oil crisis hit, Americans (not manufacturers) were in love with big, boat-sized cars. You can't fault the automakers for giving the people more of what they were buying. When the crisis hit, the Japanese were fortunate to be in prime position to be able to deliver small, more efficient cars.

What you can hit American manufacturers for, at least largely, was the poor quality of their cars. But even then, the American mentality was not how good the quality was, it was how cheap (inexpensive) the product was. I blame both consumers and manufacturers for pursuing that dead end.

The Japanese, seeing an opening, flooded the American market with imports -- some of which weren't a whole lot more reliable than American cars. What they were was more fuel-efficient...and in the 1970s, that was important.

The Japanese were not at all guiltless. While they sent tons of Toyotas and Datsuns over here, they made tons of excuses for keeping Chevys and Fords from reaching their shores. Trade was almost completely a one-way street. So while the American manufacturers had one foot in the grave, fumbling around trying (mostly without success) to produce small, high-mileage cars, Japan was helping them put the other foot in the grave via its protectionist practices.

The Japanese companies began building cars and buying parts in this country not out of the goodness of their hearts, but to avoid retaliatory protectionism movements in this country.

Nowadays, quality levels between the European, American and Japanese cars are extremely close. So not buying domestic because of the bad cars they used to make makes as much sense as buying American because the Japanese were protectionists.

With quality levels being so similar, I myself put more stock nowadays in style, features and price. I generally tend to favor American cars because of their clean, logical dash layouts and their styling.

Foreign hybrids tempted me for a while, but I'm disappointed that the mileage figures quoted seem to be overblown, and that overall cost of operation is very close to that of a standard combustion-engine automobile. It's also important to me that a car not be small and low-slung, because as you get older you find your body has much less tolerance for that sort of vehicle.

Good Post! Also some issues were due to sabotage by union workers.