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Toyota sales top GM, Ford.
- Thread starter Xtremehkr
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Consumer taste plays a major role in what vehicles are produced. But quality does as well.
Whatever Toyota is doing, seems to be the right decision as far as consumers are concerned.
GM and Ford are not meeting consumers expectations, otherwise their market share would not be declining. There is no reason why they cannot be making vehicles that are able to compete with Japanese manufacturers. Toyota and Nissan are now competing in the full size segment as well, and are doing well. Overall, their range of products are more competitive than Ford or GMs.
Unions and the companies they work with are both guilty of working against their own best interests in some instances. That is a different discussion though.
Whatever Toyota is doing, seems to be the right decision as far as consumers are concerned.
GM and Ford are not meeting consumers expectations, otherwise their market share would not be declining. There is no reason why they cannot be making vehicles that are able to compete with Japanese manufacturers. Toyota and Nissan are now competing in the full size segment as well, and are doing well. Overall, their range of products are more competitive than Ford or GMs.
Unions and the companies they work with are both guilty of working against their own best interests in some instances. That is a different discussion though.
I'm quite aware that the rise in gas prices affects other prices elsewhere...I am 100% prepared to pay extra money to heat my house, afford groceries, etc. No problem. Whatever it takes to force behavioral change. This country actually took a few steps forward back in the 70s when the fuel crisis was even worse. We set fuel economy standards and started researching alternative energy resources. As soon as the crisis let up we relaxed; our government relaxed the CAFE standards it had set, created loopholes for automakers to make millions of pickups and SUVs that didn't have to meet strict fuel economy standards, and slowed its investment in alternative energy research funding. Americans forgot what it was like to not have easy gas, so we bought all those huge cars. Americans proved that the ONLY way they will change their behavior is if gas prices go through the roof, which is once again happening as Toyota and Honda are handing Ford's and GM's heads to them. If it takes $5 a gallon gas to accelerate the process of researching a life beyond fossil fuels--national energy independence so that we're not paying millions to Saudi terrorists for their oil--then I say it's a small price to pay. If American only understand dollars and cents, then that's how it will have to go. I'll pay the $5 and pay it happily.
fklehman said:
GM is already leading the way in the Hydrogen powered vehicles development.
Xtremehkr said:
By your logic, people should be flocking to OS X in herds and not in the little sizes currently. OS X is better then Windows, yet people don't perceive it as that way and they think OS X doesn't meet their expectations. GM and Ford are putting out great cars right now. GM has 8 JD and Power awards for quality(initial and long term). It just the public takes the 1980's thinking of GM and Ford is crap when they were, and refuse to look at them.
quagmire said:
My logic is based upon what consumers are choosing to do, which is to buy cars that have the qualities Japanese vehicles do. I don't know what other reason it would be for.
There are always exceptions to the rule. I think that people should be choosing OSX over windows as well. Why they aren't is something that is not clear to me. Not entirely anyway, I have some ideas.
There are many differences between the two industries that make them hard to compare however.
If my company uses Ford as there fleet vehicles, I don't have to have any extra knowledge about how vehicles work in order to drive a Toyota in my time. A car is a car is a car for the most part.
The difference between Apple and Microsoft is that Apple is not as easily replaceable as a windows based machine is. People use windows based machines at work and because Apple has little daily influence on them, they are less likely to automatically consider an Apple when it comes to purchasing a computer.
Even if Apples differences are better, it still requires extra effort that people may not be willing to accept. They also have to pay a bit more and accept that they are not going to have as much choice when it comes to software.
The other problem concerns how much people actually know about OSX. Do the majority of people know why it is better to make the transition? I am not sure that they do.
The decision to change vehicle brands requires next to nothing, they all work the same way for the most part. They all have the same features, for the most part. Everything is basically the same. The difference lays in how well the different components perform, how long they will last, and how well they work.
There are too many differences between OSX and windows for the two to be as easily interchangeable. Especially considering the market structure. If your company uses a Windows based system and software, you get used to that structure. And if you want to bring work home, or have to, you are going to stick with Windows. Not in all situations, but in the majority. I don't want to get into a windows/mac argument though, I am an Apple supporter. Despite the lack of being able to run company software at home, I am willing to look beyond that. I think my company would benefit from being able to use Apple, but they can't, the software isn't there.
Mark my words...this car is going to be a hit just like the 1986 Taurus was. Remember where all cars were (foreign and domestic) before the 1986 Taurus came out. Let me see here...Chevy Celebrity, K-Cars, old square underpowered Accords...etc. Remember what everyone offered in 1985 then came the Taurus. What happened after that?
True, this time it does not seem so radical, but imagine a domestic car that gets good fuel economy, looks nice, has a great price, has great driving dynamics and is built with quality materials. Ford is getting the idea with the Fusion. I looked at one this weekend and this car will go head to head with any Camry or Accord. Don't discount it just because it says Ford. Get in it, drive it, look at every detail, then make a decision. Oh and by the way...save yourself a lot of money.
http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/fusion/
For all of you cheering for the end of GM and Ford do you have any idea how much the economy would be damaged? I mean it's not just the hundreds of thousands of people they employ, but also all the suppliers. It would be huge. I know some say that the US is better off with a service based economy, but I can tell you all of these people will have a hard time feeding their families on Walmart wages. We already have a terrible trade deficit as it is. Oh lets pray for GM and Ford to go under...not very smart. I know it is trendy to bash US built products, but I bought a new 2005 Ford and it is a very well built vehicle as good as anything coming from Japan right now. This is not 1980 anymore.
The last thing I will say is the domestics build vehicles that get just as good fuel economy as the Japanese. The Ford Ranger is the highest MPG pickup you can buy right now, the Ford Escape Hybrid is the highest MPG SUV right now. Chevy Cobalt and Ford Focus get good MPG. The Pontiac G6, Chevy Malibu, Chrysler 300 (V6), Ford 500, Ford Fusion all get about the same MPG as their Japanese counterparts. Also, I love how all the pro-Japanese people love to think their beloved companies would NEVER produce a vehicle that gets poor MPG. Nissan Titan, Nissan Armada, Nissan Pathfinder, Toyota Sequoia, Toyota Tundra...Do you really think all of these vehicles get great economy?
True, this time it does not seem so radical, but imagine a domestic car that gets good fuel economy, looks nice, has a great price, has great driving dynamics and is built with quality materials. Ford is getting the idea with the Fusion. I looked at one this weekend and this car will go head to head with any Camry or Accord. Don't discount it just because it says Ford. Get in it, drive it, look at every detail, then make a decision. Oh and by the way...save yourself a lot of money.
http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/fusion/
For all of you cheering for the end of GM and Ford do you have any idea how much the economy would be damaged? I mean it's not just the hundreds of thousands of people they employ, but also all the suppliers. It would be huge. I know some say that the US is better off with a service based economy, but I can tell you all of these people will have a hard time feeding their families on Walmart wages. We already have a terrible trade deficit as it is. Oh lets pray for GM and Ford to go under...not very smart. I know it is trendy to bash US built products, but I bought a new 2005 Ford and it is a very well built vehicle as good as anything coming from Japan right now. This is not 1980 anymore.
The last thing I will say is the domestics build vehicles that get just as good fuel economy as the Japanese. The Ford Ranger is the highest MPG pickup you can buy right now, the Ford Escape Hybrid is the highest MPG SUV right now. Chevy Cobalt and Ford Focus get good MPG. The Pontiac G6, Chevy Malibu, Chrysler 300 (V6), Ford 500, Ford Fusion all get about the same MPG as their Japanese counterparts. Also, I love how all the pro-Japanese people love to think their beloved companies would NEVER produce a vehicle that gets poor MPG. Nissan Titan, Nissan Armada, Nissan Pathfinder, Toyota Sequoia, Toyota Tundra...Do you really think all of these vehicles get great economy?
here is my two cents. my family has been a chevy family for i dont know how long. every single chevy has had over 100,000 miles and lasted 10+ years. i dont know about you, but that says something about quality. As for my current car, its an old hand-me down from the family, its a 96 chevy lumina. Guess what, it still runs great. Other than financial reasons (im a grad student) why would you drive an older car, especially if you look at the environmental impact. Emissions get lower and lower over time so that car of 15 years ago has worse emissions than a new car today (domestic or foreign). If you want some info, just go to the EPA website. They have lots of info on technology that is being used today that helps emissions.
again, my two cents
again, my two cents
Dont Hurt Me said:
I urge you to know what the hell you are talking about in the future.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38168-2004Nov9.html - Article describing the GM Hydrogen push
http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_tech/100_news/shell_012705.html - GM site discussing the New Yoirk Station
http://www.automotive-technology.com/projects/gmev1/ - You might have forgot about this (GM's electric efforts)
Bottom line is that until recently energy prices have simply made the buying public uninterested in alternative fuels experiments, prototypes and products.
There are some incredibly ignorant comments in this thread concerning the desire for continued increase in energy prices and mass corporate shutdowns.
Wait until an apple starts costing you $5.
Studawg7 said:
That's great. Buick has been touting that it has the best GM quality. My mum's friend and her new husband recently bought the new Buick SUV for $30,000+. They took a trip and about 1000 miles from home, the engine failed in such a way that it was going to take 3 weeks to repair it. After much discussion about wanting a brand new vehicle instead of repaired, they were given a loaner vehicle and drove home. They received their SUV once again and, in less than a week, the engine died.
You are the lucky one.
For the first time in my six years in the US, I saw a car commercial last night that emphasized miles per gallon, not "POWERRRRRR!!!!" Can't remember what it was, but I think it was a domestic car, and that's definitely a change.
Bring on the higher fuel prices, I say.
Bring on the higher fuel prices, I say.
My parents have owned GMs since I was born up until a year ago. Their most recent GM cars, Pontiacs, a 97 Grand Am and 97 Trans Sport, both bought new, were pieces of crap. The Grand Am was just completley unreliable and broke down often since they bought it. I ended up getting into an accident with the Grand Am and it was completley unsafe. A car should not have $8,000 worth of damage from a 5mph crash. It didn't hold up at all, and it was totaled. In January 2004, I then bought the first import to ever sit in our garage, a 2004 Hyundai Tiburon. Despite my dad knowing his Pontiacs sucked, I got the "You're buying a foreign car, they're so unreliable" speech from him.
Fast foward to September 2004. The Trans Sport was just over 100,000 miles, and needed nearly a grand in repairs. Yes, I'm aware the car had 100,000 miles. That doesn't mean it's OK for a car to screw up like that. My parents repaired it, and the car was good until October when something else went wrong. Oh, I completley forgot to mention the car's history of needing repairs since they bought it, didn't I? Always needing one thing or another fixed, just nothing too expensive until Sept 04. So back to the story, in Oct 2004, the car needed more repairs. The entire car would shake and struggle to move, and that was when my parent's pretty much said "**** it, we're buying a new car." I was expecting them to go back to GM like always. But my dad was actually considering an import. My parents were impressed that my Hyundai didn't break down once within the first 9 months of ownerhsip (and nearly 2 years later it hasn't), something their GM cars could never achieve. So one day in October, we went to the Hyundai dealer to drop my car off for an oil change. I went in my car, my dad followed in the barley running Trans Sport with the intention of picking me up, running a few errands with him then going back to get my car. But, upon walking into the dealership, he fell in love with a Hyundai Sonata and ended up driving that home. Then in July, my sister got a new Elantra after the advice of my dad. Our driveway looks like a Hyundai dealer, the dealership loves us, but most importantly, neither car has had any major problems (my power window motor crapped out, fixed under warranty).
Cliffs notes: when a man who swears by a certain car company and refuses to buy a foreign car, has enough problems that he now swears by a foreign car company and refuses to buy from the previous company he loved, you know there's a problem.
Fast foward to September 2004. The Trans Sport was just over 100,000 miles, and needed nearly a grand in repairs. Yes, I'm aware the car had 100,000 miles. That doesn't mean it's OK for a car to screw up like that. My parents repaired it, and the car was good until October when something else went wrong. Oh, I completley forgot to mention the car's history of needing repairs since they bought it, didn't I? Always needing one thing or another fixed, just nothing too expensive until Sept 04. So back to the story, in Oct 2004, the car needed more repairs. The entire car would shake and struggle to move, and that was when my parent's pretty much said "**** it, we're buying a new car." I was expecting them to go back to GM like always. But my dad was actually considering an import. My parents were impressed that my Hyundai didn't break down once within the first 9 months of ownerhsip (and nearly 2 years later it hasn't), something their GM cars could never achieve. So one day in October, we went to the Hyundai dealer to drop my car off for an oil change. I went in my car, my dad followed in the barley running Trans Sport with the intention of picking me up, running a few errands with him then going back to get my car. But, upon walking into the dealership, he fell in love with a Hyundai Sonata and ended up driving that home. Then in July, my sister got a new Elantra after the advice of my dad. Our driveway looks like a Hyundai dealer, the dealership loves us, but most importantly, neither car has had any major problems (my power window motor crapped out, fixed under warranty).
Cliffs notes: when a man who swears by a certain car company and refuses to buy a foreign car, has enough problems that he now swears by a foreign car company and refuses to buy from the previous company he loved, you know there's a problem.
Toyotas are made in the U.S.
Actually, a majority of Toyota's sold in the U.S. are made in the U.S. http://www.toyota.com/about/news/corporate/2005/10/03-1-sales.html At the bottom, last paragraph:
P.S. I own a Prius.
katie ta achoo said:
Actually, a majority of Toyota's sold in the U.S. are made in the U.S. http://www.toyota.com/about/news/corporate/2005/10/03-1-sales.html At the bottom, last paragraph:
P.S. I own a Prius.
I can't believe after years of seeing gorgeous interiors come out of Asia, the interiors of American cars look so horrid still today. When I was buying a new car last year, I looked at a lot of them, and the difference is astounding. Honda, Toyota, and especially Nissan have well-crafted, beautiful interiors. The American car interiors are just junk. Complete junk, with the exception of a couple cadillacs. A girl at my work has the 20th anniversary 'special edition' Pontiac Grand Am, which is supposed to be the pimped version. The interior is so ghetto it totally betrays the exterior, which really isn't that bad.
BTW, being proud of a car for making it 100,000 isn't saying much. 200,000 is where you could be proud of an engine, and most American cars won't make it there.
BTW, being proud of a car for making it 100,000 isn't saying much. 200,000 is where you could be proud of an engine, and most American cars won't make it there.
What DHM said was true. Throughout the last several decades the American auto manufacturers have been more concerned with profits than long-term growth or viability.joeconvert said:
This isn't to mention the major healthcare issues involved. GM pays for healthcare, Toyota in Japan does not. Japan has a functional national healthcare system. You can see another part of why GM was $1.6 billion in the red last quarter while Toyota was in the black.
and Chevy's are just plain fugly these days
Thanatoast said:
its always been about profit, they [GM and Ford] just cant get it right at this moment in time. Everything is cyclical, they'll be back in the black someday.
to each his own, i think the prius and other toyotas dont look that great, but id hardly say a car like the covette is "fugly."
kjr39 said:
So those two things make it a bad car? The Mazda 6 is regarded as one of the best handling front wheel drive sedans ever built. The problem with the 6 is lack of room in the back seat and trunk. Ford gave it a wheelbase stretch and reengineered the 6's platform into the CD3 platform which these cars are built off of. It is a larger car then the Mazda 6.
It might be built in Mexico, but Ford's Hermosillo plant is one of the more modern plants in North America and has a good record. Go and look at these cars built in Mexico and you tell me if you can see any assembly glitches? They are a world class product. I can't blame Ford for moving some production to Mexico. UAW is getting harder and harder to deal with and if they can't make a profit the company will go broke. The Japanese that build cars in the US are NOT under Union contracts so they don't have their hands tied like Ford, GM and DC do.
decksnap said:
Again I challenge you to go and look at the new Fusion, Milan and Zephyr. These cars do not have a junky interior. In fact, in most recent reviews they said the interior of these cars go up against anything from Asia. Many reviews actually chose the fit and finish of these cars over their Asian counterparts. Small details like contrast stitching on the leather seats, "piano black" interior accents, analog clocks, etc really set the interior off. Don't take my word for it...take the automotive press who is import biased anyhow...
Here is what Motor Week said...
http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/reviews/rt2504a.shtml
and Car and Driver
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=19&article_id=9973
These guys LOVE Toyota and Honda and proclaim they can do NOTHING wrong, yet their review of the Fusion is very positive. It just seems to me that most people discount this car because of what the company built years ago. That is like discounting Apple because you had a bad experience with an Apple IIe.
Abercrombieboy- I guess I'll have to take your word for it, because I haven't seen these cars in person. I just wonder what a difference a year makes, because quite frankly, very few American cars came out last year that didn't have horrible interiors.
But supposing you're right, there's still a lot of work to be done in a lot of areas across a lot of American car lines for them to compete on quality.
Edit: Just looked at the reviews- the interior still looks pretty typical American car. I'll have to see it in person I guess, but I'm not holding my breath.
Exterior looks like they locked a Jetta and an Accord in a room overnight.
But supposing you're right, there's still a lot of work to be done in a lot of areas across a lot of American car lines for them to compete on quality.
Edit: Just looked at the reviews- the interior still looks pretty typical American car. I'll have to see it in person I guess, but I'm not holding my breath.
Exterior looks like they locked a Jetta and an Accord in a room overnight.
bousozoku said:
More like your moms friend was a unlucky one. Lemons happen. Basing GM=crap upon 20 years ago statistics and one experience isn't valid in these days where GM won 8 awards from J.D and Associates(initial and long term quality). Also GM has a number of plants that rank high in quality. You also have to consider some of the issues GM had with cars was due to union workers sabotaging the cars. The Korean car makers were known for making crappy cars and in 2002 they began to turn it around and today have grown fairly reliable. And yet you guys hold a grudge against GM and Ford that there crappy cars were 20 years ago when Koreans were crappy up to 2002. Bad logic. I also agree that GM and Ford had crappy interiors. But as you can see with GM's and Ford's new 2006 redesigned or totally new cars, the interior is a lot better. The new Tahoe's interior is what you would expect in the Escalade. The Impala's interior looks like something you expect in a Buick or Cadillac.
Abercrombieboy said:
I believe it was you, who a few posts earlier, who stated that if Ford and GM go bankrupt, the economy would take a hit because of all of the jobs lost. Now, you're defending them for moving production to Mexico where American workers are definitley losing their jobs. Make up your mind already
Ford, GM and Chrysler are moving jobs out of the country. The Japanese, Korean and European countries are creating jobs in the country. Yet you still have the mullet wearing rednecks in small towns like the one I live in who support the big 3 to the death for boosting the American economy and I'm a traitor and anti-American (yes, I have been told that) for owning a Hyundai. God damn Hyundai for building one of the largest auto plants in the United States, all they do is hurt the American economy
Oh well, let them think what they want. I'll continue to buy good ol, economical, "imported" cars for as long as I live.quagmire said:
I don't have much against Ford, except for their not acknowledging the problems with the Explorer and Mountaineer that allegedly contributed to so many people losing their lives. They had been quite a responsible car company since 1982.
Isn't the Escalade a Tahoe anyway? It's nice that they fix up the Tahoe to look good.
I'm still impressed with the Pontiac Vibe and Toyota Matrix as a prime example. They're practically the same car, yet they could not be more different. Slick advertising is all that sells the Vibe. If they were sold side-by-side, Pontiac wouldn't likely sell any to people who were open-minded about vehicles from any country. The Vibe is sloppy in contrast to the Matrix.
yg17 said:I believe it was you, who a few posts earlier, who stated that if Ford and GM go bankrupt, the economy would take a hit because of all of the jobs lost. Now, you're defending them for moving production to Mexico where American workers are definitley losing their jobs. Make up your mind already
Ford, GM and Chrysler are moving jobs out of the country. The Japanese, Korean and European countries are creating jobs in the country. Yet you still have the mullet wearing rednecks in small towns like the one I live in who support the big 3 to the death for boosting the American economy and I'm a traitor and anti-American (yes, I have been told that) for owning a Hyundai. God damn Hyundai for building one of the largest auto plants in the United States, all they do is hurt the American economy
So GM can only build cars in the U.S? Talk about not helping out the global economy. GM still builds a lot of vehicles in the U.S. There is nothing wrong with building in other countries. Toyota can build here too. I wouldn't mind where my vehicle was built as long as it is reliable. Fact is though, GM and Ford still employ more people then Toyota. Come 50-100 years, Toyota will face the same issue as GM and Ford is dealing with today with retirees. GM has more retirees then workers. GM still pay those retirees at full wage and pension as if they were working. Toyota has no such things to pay. The more they invest in the US for building cars, the more money they will be paying when the retirees demand their full pay check. Good luck Toyota with the UAW!
bousozoku said:
Yes the Escalade is a tahoe, but the interior of the new Tahoe is what you would expect in the Escalade, since it is a Cadillac. Can't wait until the new Escalade gets unveiled, the interior is going to rock! You know whats ironic though? Many people and sites say the Vibe is the most unreliable vehicle in GM's line up right now. Ironic yes? And it is like Toyota blaming the drivers for the Scion tC problems.
http://www.autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=103151
Well, of course it's always been about profit. It's about profit at Toyota, too. The difference is that GM management put the focus on short-term stock gains, while ignoring their looming pension and healthcare quagmire, while Toyota built a sustainable business model that will outlast GM and make more money more reliably, over the long run.Studawg7 said:
And the Corvette just proves the rule. The Cobalt isn't bad, but the rest have that funky silver bar across the front.
Thanatoast said:
Ignoring the pension and health care? First, yes it was GM's fault for agreeing to the ridiculous contract back in 1987 with the UAW. That was when they were making tons of money and they could afford it and they didn't want strikes and sabotages. Now they are fixing it. As I said above, 50-100 years, Toyota will face the same thing when they invest so much in the US, they will will be doing the same thing GM is doing. This is what GM is doing about their health care problem. And it is a cool gold bowtie on the rest of the Chevy lineup.
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=21358
yg17 said:
I am educated and do not have a mullet and I drive a Ford. I am not bashing you for driving a Hyundai, but you appear to be bashing me for supporting the Ford Motor Company. I don't want a Hyundai, but if you do, that is cool. I never tell anyone what to buy (well I try with computers sometimes). All I am trying to say is that Ford is showing some great progress with their new models (new Mustang, Fusion, Milan, etc.) That was my only point. I think people should give them and GM a look instead of just thinking...oh ya...Ford built the Pinto and Chevy made the Vega. It is not like that anymore.
bousozoku said:
What problems were there with the 1991-2001 Explorer/Mountaineer that were any different then every other body on frame SUV had at the time? Ford made a mistake when they went with Firestone Wilderness A/T's on the vehicle. Wait a minute, Firestone is made by Bridgestone (a JAPANESE corporation) so we better rule them out! I had a friend in college that rolled his 1994 4Runner. It must have been Toyota's fault! No, it was his own fault. Overdriving the vehicle was the fault and it was his fault. If the government would have mandated a recall of the Explorer they would have had to recall every BOF SUV built during that time. There were models with a higher rollover rate and higher driver/passenger death rate then the Explorer.
Ford fixed the Explorer in 2002 by making the SUV wider, the frame lower and installing an independent rear suspension (something very few other companies have done with their body on frame SUV's). The solid rear axle can "jack" in emergency situations and can make the vehicle more likely to roll. In 2005, Ford installed RSC (Roll Stability Control) as standard equipment on all Explorers and Mountaineers. It is the same system that is found on the Volvo XC90.