Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Toyota sales top GM, Ford.
- Thread starter Xtremehkr
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
aloofman said:
Why not? He seems like a good honest person and cares a lot about his company. Of course, most CEO's don't have their name on the building either.
I think that is one thing that is cool about the Ford Motor Company. It is the last large company that is still family controlled. The Ford family still owns a 40% share of the company. Henry Ford was a poor farmers son and built the whole company from nothing. It is a story of the "American Dream."
Abercrombieboy said:
That's true. But Henry Ford was also a vehement union-buster and a raging anti-Semite, so much so that he reprinted myths of Jewish conspiracies as fact and openly admired Adolf Hitler. And after the initial Model T heyday, his stubbornness about not diversifying Ford's model lineup nearly ran the company into the ground.
I suppose there are some CEOs that are worth admiring, but the vast majority of them only get to that post through ruthless profiteering and greedy gamesmanship. Kind of like becoming president.
Looks like Toyota needs to explain...
why the Highlander Hybrid and Lexus RX 400h are not even getting close to their EPA mileage. In fact, they are not doing any better on fuel economy then their gasoline only models in real road tests. If this vehicle does not do better on fuel, what is the point of it?
http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/attackads24e_20051024.htm
Just wanted to make sure that you are all aware that Toyota is not a perfect corporation either.
why the Highlander Hybrid and Lexus RX 400h are not even getting close to their EPA mileage. In fact, they are not doing any better on fuel economy then their gasoline only models in real road tests. If this vehicle does not do better on fuel, what is the point of it?
http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/attackads24e_20051024.htm
Just wanted to make sure that you are all aware that Toyota is not a perfect corporation either.
American cars are of such lower quality.. I think even those Korean car makers like Hyundai or Kia have better overall quality than American cars... my dad was an American car loyalist... Oldsmobile, Ford, GM... but US just doesn't make cars like they use too... my dad's old Olds ran for several years before it finally died on us... but the Taurus wagon my dad owned was a lemon straight from the lot... we eventaully had to pay someone to haul it away...
I'm not going to buy an American car until I see some dramatic improvements in quality, efficiency, and performance....
I'm not going to buy an American car until I see some dramatic improvements in quality, efficiency, and performance....
Abercrombieboy said:
The government EPA rating are done at 20-25 miles per hour with the air conditioning off and no passengers.
It is rare for any vehicles to meet the EPA mileage estimates.
I get the feeling that the EPA testing procedure was determined by the auto industry, it is so ridiculously unrealistic.
Abercrombieboy said:
As a Prius owner who actually *DOES* get the EPA estimates, even I understand that the EPA estimates are usually horribly off.
And as a corporation owner, I also understand that corporations are evil. (I've had to make decisions I don't like 'for the sake of the company.')
Xtremehkr said:
Both EPA tests are done on a dynamometer (a stationary device that you put the drive wheels on, and it simulates road friction, sort of like an exercise bike.) Both assume no A/C, very slow ('sunday driver grandma') acceleration, straight and level roads, and 300 pounds in the car (includes driver.) The 'city' test assumes an average speed of 20 miles per hour for 11 miles, with a max speed of 56 MPH; and the 'highway' test assumes an average speed of 48 MPH for 10 miles, with a max of 60 MPH! Both with ambient temperatures between 68 and 86 degrees F. The highway test also includes no stops, and starts with a warm engine.
Finally, the actual results of the test are figured out not by measuring the actual amount of fuel used, but by measuring the CO2 coming out of the exhaust, and calculating how much gasoline would be required to produce that much CO2. Then, the final results is actually REDUCED by a certain percentage, because their tests actually produce totally overblown numbers. (I can't find the actual percentage, but I seem to recall that it's about 25%.)
See http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/why_differ.shtml for more.
The standards are very old, and the percentage reduction was added in the '80s. New standards are supposedly in the works, to be more representative (higher top speeds, A/C use, faster acceleration...) but I can't find any confirmation. (And I have a feeling the auto industry DOESN'T like the current ones, because people are constantly complaining about not getting the stated numbers. They'd probably rather have them be a little low, that way everyone is happy.)
The day my Celica GT4 (Alltrac for those in the USA) gets close to those figures... well lets jsut say it'd be a really long down hill.Xtremehkr said:
Jordan
jonomo said:
Japan and all of the EU are commited to meeting the Kyoto protocol. And in most cases exceeding it's goals. The USA and AUS have not committed (except for LA and there exhaust emmissions) and as such car makers are yet to invest heavily in fuel saving, or alternate fuel technologies.
Cheers
Jordan
Skareb said:
California's auto emissions regulations -- which are the toughest in the world -- are not related to greenhouse gases. They address things like ozone, carbon monoxide, NOx, particulates, etc. The state's Air Resources Board has been instructed to study them and come up with measures to reduce them, but that's a few years away and they could be stopped by new laws or court order.
California is allowed to set emissions rules tougher than the federal government because it started regulating them before the federal government did. Other states have the option of adopting California's rules and several have, mostly New York, Massachusetts, and a few other northeastern states.
it really makes no sense to say hybrid's aren't worth the trouble and diesels are the way to go. there's no reason you couldn't have a hybrid diesel.
Regardless of who put the first hybrid car on the road, its still a totally new technology that has tons of problems to solve. There's tons of room for innovation after the initial concept is developed. Ford is being innovative on the hybrid front because they're not just buying the liscense to toyota's technology like nissan is. They're adapting their own drive train to their own cars, figuring out where to put in the motor, what kind of bateries are best, where to put them, how to cool the electric components.
They're also really at the front of the pack on the hydrogen front. They've got 30 hydrogen fuel cell ford focus models heading out around the world for rear world testing in various countries. They also just started delivering the first of 100 hydrogen fueled IC engine shuttle vans.
Regardless of who put the first hybrid car on the road, its still a totally new technology that has tons of problems to solve. There's tons of room for innovation after the initial concept is developed. Ford is being innovative on the hybrid front because they're not just buying the liscense to toyota's technology like nissan is. They're adapting their own drive train to their own cars, figuring out where to put in the motor, what kind of bateries are best, where to put them, how to cool the electric components.
They're also really at the front of the pack on the hydrogen front. They've got 30 hydrogen fuel cell ford focus models heading out around the world for rear world testing in various countries. They also just started delivering the first of 100 hydrogen fueled IC engine shuttle vans.
The Germans don't agree with you. Mercedes stated at the Frankfurt auto show that they percieved a showdown between diesel and hybrids as two discrete technologies in the US marketplace. They're pissed that hybrids won, given the profligation of diesels everywhere else. The cost of adding in that electric motor, at least for now, is so high that it would take loads and loads of trips to the gas station to recoup those costs.
Why not just diesel?
Why not just diesel?
Jon'sLightBulbs said:
I think we've gone round and round on these boards about diesel before. In a nutshell, in some ways diesel is cleaner, but in other ways its dirtier. US diesel fuel has a fairly high sulfur content that prevents it from burning cleaner. Both diesel engines and fuel will have to burn far cleaner in the next couple years, which will make diesel a real green alternative here. (Here being California, where emissions rules prevent most diesel cars from being sold.) On the other hand, some expect these new regs to raise the cost of diesel fuel and cars significantly, so I'm not sure there will be much of an advantage even with the better mileage.
But there's a lot of bad feeling toward diesel here left over from the days when diesel cars were noisy, smelly, and dirty. Those issues have been almost completely eliminated now, but most Americans still associate diesel with big trucks and not cars. On the one hand, Americans are behind the times on that issue, but there also aren't many diesel cars available here so it kind of fell off our radar. It will be an uphill climb to get Americans interested in diesel again.
jeffy.dee-lux said:
well that is simply not true.. i've got a magazine from 1968 (that's 37 years) about hybrid drive trains including prototypes from even GM .. it was eve na 2 seated small city car resembling the Smart... that aside the concept of hybrid cars is older than that ... a lot ...
in fact the first hybrid car was constructed in 1902.. by Ferdinand Porsche
even his proposed design for the WWII PzKw IV ("Tiger") drive train was actually a hybrid ... and he lost to much simpler diesel engine
When the new sulfur diesel fuel becomes mandatory in the US, there will be a fortune being made by people who buy diesels in states outside California, driving them 7500 miles, then selling them on ebay to Californians who can't buy diesels directly...
Ooops. Too late. It's on already!
Ooops. Too late. It's on already!
Jon'sLightBulbs said:
I know the germans don't agree with me, nobody understands, but its so simple. Everybody, including automakers, keeps comparing them as two competing technologies, while really, a hybrid drive train could be applied to any kind of engine. Why does everybody immediately assume that a hybrid can't be a diesel. There are plenty of examples already. The hybrid busses in Seatle and NY and many other cities by now i believe (hopefully montreal soon too, i just spoke to the guy heading that project...). Ford also put out a concept which was basically just the upcoming mercury version of the freestyle, and it was powered by a PZEV turbo-diesel engine coupled with an electric motor.
Sure a plain diesel engine would be cheaper. A plain gas engine would also be cheaper. We add the expensive electric components because it'll make the car more energy efficient. A hybrid diesel would be more expensive than a regular diesel, but it would also be more efficient. Pop a hybrid drive train into a Jetta TDI and i bet you'd be pulling like... 200mpg or something...
Seriously though, just cause diesels are sweet and have higher compression ratios and run more efficiently doesn't mean that the car doesn't throw all its kinetic energy away every time it stops. Diesels being noisy and all, i'd appreciate the automatic shut off at idle too.
I cut my cost of ownership WAY WAY down since my wife dumped her Acuras and instead bought a Chrysler. My Chevys never go fewer than 200,000 miles before I sell them. These arguments always piss me off ... domestics last fine with proper maintenance, yet most owners don't do it. Imports, on the other hand, get ALL wear parts replaced as part of the amazingly expensive services throughout the life of the car.
Hmm ... maintain one and it lasts longer. What a surprise.
I find that the less people know about cars (and mechanics in general) the more they like imports. Personally, I cannot stand the designs of Toyota and Honda. I have been stuck by a breakdown in my wife's Integra due to an extremely bad clutch design that wasn't made to withstand the heat generated by its own use. But gosh, if Honda does that, it's a fluke. If Chevy had done that, it would have been an indication of poor quality in the domestic industry. What a double standard!
Fact is, Chevy and Ford get better mileage for similar sized cars than Toyota and Honda, and Chevy trucks get WAY better mileage than Toyota and Nissan.
And don't forget what started this whole thread ... Toyota increased market share only after the domestics dramatically increased their share with the incentives. Year to year, it's a wash: Toyota is NOT leading GM except for ONE MONTH OF SALES.
Keep your Hondas and Toyotas. I'll keep my extra spending money that YOU spend on repairs desguised as "maintenance."
Hmm ... maintain one and it lasts longer. What a surprise.
I find that the less people know about cars (and mechanics in general) the more they like imports. Personally, I cannot stand the designs of Toyota and Honda. I have been stuck by a breakdown in my wife's Integra due to an extremely bad clutch design that wasn't made to withstand the heat generated by its own use. But gosh, if Honda does that, it's a fluke. If Chevy had done that, it would have been an indication of poor quality in the domestic industry. What a double standard!
Fact is, Chevy and Ford get better mileage for similar sized cars than Toyota and Honda, and Chevy trucks get WAY better mileage than Toyota and Nissan.
And don't forget what started this whole thread ... Toyota increased market share only after the domestics dramatically increased their share with the incentives. Year to year, it's a wash: Toyota is NOT leading GM except for ONE MONTH OF SALES.
Keep your Hondas and Toyotas. I'll keep my extra spending money that YOU spend on repairs desguised as "maintenance."
aloofman said:
.... but.... but... that's SOCIALIST! Pinko, commie corporate scum! Heheh
... and electric cars are simply a way to nearly get me killed at blind crossings... you can't hear the damn things coming!
Heh. The only people who drive Subarus round here have metallic blue Imprezas, and think somehow that means they can drive just like they're playing Gran Turismo. Idiots. Still, it's always just a matter of time before they manage to wrap the thing round a tree and remove themselves from the gene pool.
Ironically (from a UK'ers POV), GM and Ford at least seem to have spent more time buying global competitors than actually thinking about how to make their domestics better. At least the local GM brand (Vauxhall in the UK, Opel on the continent) seem to have dragged themselves out of the mundane. New Vectras actually look half decent and have something resembling Vauxhall's build quality of old.
Meanwhile, I have no idea what Ford are thinking about their interiors. Their cars look a little bland from the outside anyway (although the new Focus are relatively interesting to look at). Sure, on a Ford Fiesta or a Ford Ka, at the lower end of things, you might be willing to forgive the vast expanses of plain, black plastic on the dash, and "we really can't be arsed to put any effort in" trim, fit and finish.
But even the high-end Fords... new Focus's, Pumas, whatevers.... the interiors are just ... plain. Not even an 'elegant' plain... just plain boring.
Check out ford.co.uk's 'entire range' page. Try to stifle any yawns! (By the way, I'm astonished such a huge company can have such a crappy website).
Meh.. rant over.
I don't even own a car
I get a chauffeur-driven double-decker bus into work
You all are spot on regarding Toyota. They are made in the US. My mom works at the plant in Georgetown where they make the Camry, Avalon, and Sienna. Starting in the spring they are going to start making the Camry Hybrid.
They don't have any inventory at the plant. None. The parts come off a truck and are on a new car almost immediatly. Also, they build Camry's and Avalon's on the same line. No other company does this. That means 2 camry's, 1 avalon, 3 camry's, 2 avalon's, and so on. Every employee does something different to each one.
Also, they don't build a car unless it's already sold. There are three lines in Georgetown, so that means that they produce 3 brand new cars every 52 seconds, 18 hours a day!!!
And the reason Toyota's are so high in quality... There are two ways to get fired from Toyota. Show up late 3 times, you're fired. Let your quality slip, you're fired. Buy one, I promise you'll be happy with it.
They don't have any inventory at the plant. None. The parts come off a truck and are on a new car almost immediatly. Also, they build Camry's and Avalon's on the same line. No other company does this. That means 2 camry's, 1 avalon, 3 camry's, 2 avalon's, and so on. Every employee does something different to each one.
Also, they don't build a car unless it's already sold. There are three lines in Georgetown, so that means that they produce 3 brand new cars every 52 seconds, 18 hours a day!!!
And the reason Toyota's are so high in quality... There are two ways to get fired from Toyota. Show up late 3 times, you're fired. Let your quality slip, you're fired. Buy one, I promise you'll be happy with it.