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I believe I read that these govt requests are made behind the scenes in court and that the companies are not allowed to discuss it. In this case, the FBI chose to make it public hoping to embarrass Apple as they saw it and put public pressure on them. Somewhere in one of these threads someone had linked to an Apple page or article where Apple kind of gave the numbers of cases for requests like these. They apparently couldn't say anything definitive but only in a range of numbers. So I suspect you are incorrect on Apple wanting to keep this quiet. Sounded more like a gag order on them and surely on many other companies in these type of cases.
What you believe is, well, false. There was no gag order, and there's no truth to companies not being allowed to discuss such things. If it were illegal, as you suggest, what is Apple thinking discussing this case so much in public?

Anyway, Apple asked the FBI to keep its request under seal and the FBI decided to go public; this has not been disputed, even by the FBI.
 
Lots of you seem to have a lot to hide

If not, THEY DONT GIVE A **** ABOUT YOU
Oh look, yet another person who thinks those with nothing to hide should just let the authorities peruse their personal effects at will. Speaking of "nothing to hide":
I believe that I am innocent of even minor offences, and I know, as an absolute certainty, that there is nothing that any normal, average person would consider to be incriminating on my phone. Still, I have everything to hide from the government (yours, mine, or anyone's).

In no particular order, these are a few of the things that I would like to hide from prying eyes: my music, my notes, my Angry Birds scores, my passwords, my calendar, my address book, what apps I use, my banking info, the books I read, my photos, and how many characters I've unlocked in Crossy Road.

No one, neither government nor citizen, has any right, need, or reason to look at any of my stuff.
 
Most corporation will never stand against the government. Why? because payback is hell. So rejoice while it lasts because it will not last long.

You are naive. Who do you think shapes, molds and bends the governments of this world to their will? Corporations do. Governments are dependent on existence of corporations and not the another way around. Normally corporations lobby or back their chosen candidates but this time they have chosen more direct action.
 
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I believe I read that these govt requests are made behind the scenes in court and that the companies are not allowed to discuss it. In this case, the FBI chose to make it public hoping to embarrass Apple as they saw it and put public pressure on them. Somewhere in one of these threads someone had linked to an Apple page or article where Apple kind of gave the numbers of cases for requests like these. They apparently couldn't say anything definitive but only in a range of numbers. So I suspect you are incorrect on Apple wanting to keep this quiet. Sounded more like a gag order on them and surely on many other companies in these type of cases.


What you believe is, well, false. There was no gag order, and there's no truth to companies not being allowed to discuss such things. If it were illegal, as you suggest, what is Apple thinking discussing this case so much in public?

Anyway, Apple asked the FBI to keep its request under seal and the FBI decided to go public; this has not been disputed, even by the FBI.


If you re-read my post you'll see I said "sounded more like a gag order..." [emphasis on "like", with the intent similar]. Having worked in a few law offices that prepared pleadings, I do realize that a Court orders a gag order.

As far as your claim that "there's no truth to companies not being able to discuss such things"...well from Apple's Privacy page is the following (knew I had read something to this affect):

"National Security Orders from the U.S. government.
A tiny percentage of our millions of accounts is affected by national security–related requests. In the first six months of 2015, we received between 750 and 999 of these requests. Though we would like to be more specific, by law this is the most precise information we are currently allowed to disclose."

Here's the original source for your reading: http://www.apple.com/privacy/government-information-requests/

It also makes reference to the numbers of such requests in a rather large span of possible incidents as I mentioned, not apparently being able to say exactly how many.

Once the govt decided to make this request public, Apple could discuss much of what transpired.
 
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This is kind of pointless, but I copied and pasted it straight from Apple's website and it maintained the formatting. Not my emphasis. Are you saying that the FBI's request isn't a national-security request? I thought their special request for this just one phone was due to terrorism related national security reasons. And again, I didn't say it was a gag order.
 
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This is kind of pointless, but I copied that straight from Apple's website and it maintained the formatting. Not my emphasis. And again, I didn't say it was a gag order.
If the court orders the parties not to discuss or reveal any information that is a gag order. Anything you describe, where any party is not permitted to discuss certain aspects, or all aspects, of a case is a gag order. So, no matter what you mean, it would still be a gag order.

Usually both parties are enjoined from discussing a case, but even in the event that it applies to one party only, the gag order isn't automatically reversed if the other party speaks.

The fact remains that Apple wanted this action sealed and the FBI didn't. It was the FBI who first brought it to the attention of the public. You can disagree, that's fine, but the facts (as we have now) show that you'd be wrong.

Edit: somehow (autocorrect, I'm looking at you) "and" got changed to "no"
 
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Apple is (correctly) moving the marketing machine.... FBI just has not the same public impact
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Wow... basically everyone who is anyone in digital data or document handling are lining up on this one. Very good to see! In fact, I may be missing some, but Adobe is the only "800 lb gorilla" I don't see here.
Adobe ? Lol... They are basically complying with FBI request: Flash is a permanent backdoor on any platform
 
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You know people... go to one of those events when people are getting their citizenship, and look when the video on the screen start to talk about "the land of freedom".
I believe I read that these govt requests are made behind the scenes in court and that the companies are not allowed to discuss it. In this case, the FBI chose to make it public hoping to embarrass Apple as they saw it and put public pressure on them. Somewhere in one of these threads someone had linked to an Apple page or article where Apple kind of gave the numbers of cases for requests like these. They apparently couldn't say anything definitive but only in a range of numbers. So I suspect you are incorrect on Apple wanting to keep this quiet. Sounded more like a gag order on them and surely on many other companies in these type of cases.

I was in a case at the FBI here in Miami, they have access to anything all the time. They can hack the iPhone and they do it if they need to, they have the technology and the people. But in this case they had to expose it I do not know why.

They have this software that once you give the name of the person and they find it, they can trace all the emails, web sites, text messages. Probably not the message itself but from and to whom. Now, you never show all your tools.
 
I'm not sure why it matters that 5 families of victims are siding with the FBI. When we let victim's families decide what is and what is not acceptable, then we lose the rule of the law. If anything happened to one of my children or my wife I would probably want to kill the person with my bare hands, but that doesn't mean I think all murderers should be killed be their victim's families.
 
So basically ... a bunch of people that still think this case is about the one phone are in support of the FBI. Yay ignorance!

This court order IS for one phone. If the FBI want access to other phones, they need a new court order from a judge. So tell me how this court order allows the FBI to get access to everyone's phone?
 
This court order IS for one phone. If the FBI want access to other phones, they need a new court order from a judge. So tell me how this court order allows the FBI to get access to everyone's phone?
Have you been following none of this?
 
No, now the iPhone in question might have a "cyber pathegon" according to San Bernadino"s DA:

http://techcrunch.com/2016/03/03/sa...syed-farouks-iphone-may-house-cyber-pathogen/

If that the case it probably would be better to just destroy the phone LOL.

Here is a link to Zdziarski's comments on the above. Absolutely hilarious.

idiot-americans.jpg
 
Lots of you seem to have a lot to hide

If not, THEY DONT GIVE A **** ABOUT YOU
I don't know about the rest of these folks, but I have absolute proof that neither Clinton nor Trump is eligible to run for POTUS. Unfortunately, if either of them found out about about the other, the leaders on their home worlds would immediately order that their sworn enemy be taken out with a surgical strike (all life on Earth would be extinguished -- collateral damage -- but the rest of the solar system would be unharmed).

I'm also working on a promising cheap cure for nearly every known form of cancer. Currently the only side effect is that the cure leaves you with an uncontrollable urge to eat the flesh of newborn humans. I feel confident that I can eliminate that side effect with a bit more research.

I'm not ready to have this information get out of my labs yet, so I keep all my documentation on e-paper and I keep those e-papers in a special room. If the room is accessed in any way other than with my secret passcode, voice print, three fingers, and one toe, the entire room will be flooded with an EMP that scrambles the magnetic ink particles and makes the documents unreadable.

So far, so good, but my next door neighbor has taken me to small-claims court to complain about late night "motor noises", and the judge has issued a warrant to search my home. They can't get past the triple-secure lock on my secret room by themselves, but they've ordered the guy who sold me the lock to find a way to bypass some of the security so that it can be opened just by passably imitating my voice. And Congress has introduced legislation that would require me to replace the secure lock with one that they can pick more easily.
 
This court order IS for one phone. If the FBI want access to other phones, they need a new court order from a judge. So tell me how this court order allows the FBI to get access to everyone's phone?
Because if the order is upheld it becomes quite trivial to get another one. And there's the issue of the Justice Department (?) already saying they have 12 iPhones waiting if this order isn't quashed. And the police departments from around the US that have also said that they are eager for this for all of their confiscated iPhones. And FBI director James Comey finally admitting that this would set precedent.

And then there's this little gem from Robert S. Litt, the intelligence community’s top lawyer, in an email sent to colleagues in August:

“the legislative environment is very hostile today, it could turn in the event of a terrorist attack or criminal event where strong encryption can be shown to have hindered law enforcement.”

So, yeah, it's about more than just one phone
 
And those other phones that the police want to search will need to have court orders from judges.
Oh please, I think you know that when people say "this is about more than just one phone" they don't mean, literally, "this single court order covers multiple iPhones".

If this order stands future orders will be as difficult to get as salad at a buffet.
 
I'm not sure why it matters that 5 families of victims are siding with the FBI. When we let victim's families decide what is and what is not acceptable, then we lose the rule of the law. If anything happened to one of my children or my wife I would probably want to kill the person with my bare hands, but that doesn't mean I think all murderers should be killed be their victim's families.

There are also other families who explicitly side with Apple.

But there is a strange thing. Those who side with Apple all say "yes, it would be nice to get information off the phone, but what the FBI suggests endangers all iPhone users, and the information isn't worth that". Those who side with the FBI all say "We want to get the information off that phone".

There is nobody who says "We want to get the information off that phone. I know that what the FBI suggests endangers all iPhone users, but the information on that phone is more important. " In other words, every single person who sides with the FBI is either uninformed or leaves that information out intentionally.

Because if the order is upheld it becomes quite trivial to get another one. And there's the issue of the Justice Department (?) already saying they have 12 iPhones waiting if this order isn't quashed.

The funny thing is that the current court order tells Apple that after unlocking the phone, they can destroy all the code involved (Apple's argument is that once it is created, the damage cannot be undone). So if Apple's argument was wrong, Apple _could_ unlock that phone, send the FBI a _huge_ bill because all the security involved, destroy everything, and when the next request comes tell the FBI "Ok, the first time cost $150,000, the next time is going to cost $150,000 as well".
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The police cannot force you to unlock your phone. They can force you to place your thumb on the scanner, but they cannot force you to incriminate yourself by revealing your pass code.
You are wrong. Entering your passcode is like opening your door to police officers with a search warrant. It is not self incriminating. The only exception would be if the police cannot actually prove that this is your phone, and by unlocking it you give them the proof. Or if the phone contained tons of evidence that the phone owner committed a crime, but no evidence who the owner is, then unlocking the phone would give the police that information and would be self incriminating.

But in most practical cases, where the ownership is known, unlocking the phone is not self incrimination.
 
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That said, the idea that we, as a society, should accept that phones, computers, and other digital devices protected by strong encryption are 100% private zones is like saying we should allow rooms the government may never, under any circumstance, access in a home. We're essentially saying that the individual's right to privacy trumps EVERYTHING. I was listening to Sam Harris the other day and he calls the obsession with privacy a new religion, one he deems just as dangerous as existing God-based ones. I can see his point.

If the FBI knows that X is a pedophile and has shoeboxes full of kiddie porn pictures in a room at his house, should they not be allowed to serve a warrant and search the home? Should X have the right to an unsearchable room in his home? What if X is found dead and the only way to bust the child porn ring is by searching that room? I think most sensible people would find it absurd not to search the room. But, instead, X has all of his child porn on his encrypted phone and there's no way to access it, even though the need is completely legitimate. I find this very troubling.

The only sensible way forward that I see is for companies like Apple to become key masters, something they, understandably, don't want to do. If they don't move in that direction, however, government will start to legislate and it will be a disaster. If Apple provides unbreakable encryption on their phone, they should store the key and be able to provide it when served with a legal search warrant. If they do this, they short-circuit the need for legislation. Otherwise we are guaranteed to see a day when every tech company, every online service, must log everything and somehow provide the government with access. And when that day comes, the burden will be far more onerous and loss of privacy far greater than if these companies got proactive now and came up with a reasonable solution.

The problem is that this isn't a new thing: you're basically describing cryptography (i.e. the ability to disguise material so it can't be seen, even if the wrong person gets their hands on it). Cryptography isn't new. It dates back to Ancient Egypt.

Leonardo da Vinci and Nostradamus wrote in codes so the authorities couldn't see their work. That was a form of cryptography. The "strength" of the encryption is also a useless argument - any type of encryption, from da Vinci's notebooks to AES-256, which you don't know how to break is indistinguishable from 'perfect' encryption.

The only difference is that we're living in a world where lots of personal, private information is stored and concentrated in one, portable device (cloud services notwithstanding). It's a big target for all kinds of nefarious purposes, and for that reason customers want their phones to be encrypted by default.

The law can often be frustrating for the sake of principle - do you want to know how many bloody daggers have been disallowed as evidence due to minor procedural issues? What about testimony that has been disallowed because it may have been procured by torture?

Look at the case of Robert Elmer Kleason (the original 'Texas Chainsaw Massacre' guy): He was convicted and sentenced to death in 1975, but the appeals court found the original warrant to search his home deficient, meaning they had to exclude massive evidence like bloody clothes and watches of the victims which were found in his house. He spent a short time in jail for some other minor offence, but was released, lived in New York for a while before moving to England. They tried to extradite him in 2001 based on DNA evidence, but legal wrangles about the possibility of the death penalty if returned to Texas dragged the process on for 2 years before he died of heart failure at 68 years old.

In that case, the law was standing up for the principle of the police needing valid search warrants, then again for the principle not to extradite people to places where they could face (what the English deemed) a barbaric punishment. Even as a probable-murderer, he had rights.

In fact, it goes further - even terrorists have rights. They can still enjoy all of the constitutional freedoms and human rights that you do. If you capture a terrorist and put him in prison, he has rights as to his detention conditions. This is important, because, who exactly is a terrorist? Today they are Muslim extremists, but tomorrow they could be political opponents.

Basically, we have always had the ability to encode and encrypt our information (whether electronically or manually), and the law has always stood for the principle, even if it leads to uncomfortable situations. This is not news.

Moreover, it's not going to do anything to stop terrorism. Terrorists could simply use burners, or have somebody remote-wipe their phones (unless the FBI manage to take that away, too!); they could use messaging apps with stronger encryption than the base OS, or they could go low-key and use SMS with cryptic phrases like "the monkey is in the fridge" (that's also a kind of cryptography) - that's what the Paris attackers did.
 
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