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I have to agree with Apple, having guidelines on how to do things gives consistency in GUI and app quality and insures Interoperability between software. Just look at the jungle that Linux is, there are no rules, everything looks different and works different with different set of rules all at the convenience of the user.

That being said, I do want to have the freedom of installing whatever app I want via sideloading and not force fed Apple dictated rules. Apple can mitigate this by burying the option of sideloading in the advanced settings and giving a warning saying "We are no longer responsible for the breakage of your phone or any viruses or malware affecting your device"

Most people will not know it exist or care to turn it on for their dearly expensive device and stay in the safe zone.
"We are no longer responsible for the breakage of your phone or any viruses or malware affecting your device"

That would be blantently illegal under the magnoson moss warranty act since the act of side loading can not be used to void the entire warranty of your Apple device. The only warranty repairs Apple could legally deny would be the sideloaded apps they can actually prove caused the damage, not speculate may have caused damage to use as a reason to deny warranty.
 
"We are no longer responsible for the breakage of your phone or any viruses or malware affecting your device"

That would be blantently illegal under the magnoson moss warranty act since the act of side loading can not be used to void the entire warranty of your Apple device. The only warranty repairs Apple could legally deny would be the sideloaded apps they can actually prove caused the damage, not speculate may have caused damage to use as a reason to deny warranty.
Maybe, maybe not. For example, as a consequence of installing an after market ecu in your car, your engine blows up…the auto maker has grounds to deny a warranty claim. If apple can prove some malware “broke” an iPhone it can deny the warranty service.
 
They’re hiding behind “security and privacy” to rake in the billion$. While it’s their marketing strategy, it’s doubtful they actually care - except how things affect their bottom line.

Does anyone think they’d be kicking and screaming as they are now if this new scheme would double their profits?
 
I’m kind of torn on the issue. I feel like people know what kind of limitations they will have when they purchase an Apple device. That is part of the freedom of choice. At the same time people can choose not to side load apps.

The part that worries me is when developers make their apps “side load only.” I think this will ruin the app store and basically burst the app developer bubble to a degree. This will end up hurting small developers more than this will hurt apple.
 
First of all, Apple does quite well as a successful company, with plenty of satisfied customers who rely on Apple to protect them from poorly designed, privacy-weak, or malware. There are quite a number of older politicians who have little or no understanding of how modern computer software works. They generally do, however, hear from competitors who whine that Apple is blocking them from offering their wares through Apple's App Store, thereby preventing those competitors from making more money for themselves, some of which, of course, could very well end up in some compliant politician's campaign chest.

The better path for non-AppStore developers is to combine to buy, create, or hire their own collective applications store developers that can actually provide good value both to the end user and to the developers.

When corner grocery stores were faced with competing against A&P, they banded together and established chains of individually-owned stores, and using their collective buying power they forced suppliers to sell to them at the same prices as A&P. No politicians necessary.

And, of course, Apple itself didn't whine to the government when it was struggling to compete with several very successful hardware and software companies. Apple's founders hired some very smart developers and hardware engineers and competed, surpassing almost all of their competitors. That's free enterprise.

Anti-trust, monopolies, collective bargaining agreements, pensions, work hours, paid vacations, health and safety laws and many other provisions in the laws are good for the country; politicians picking and choosing winners are not.
 
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"We are no longer responsible for the breakage of your phone or any viruses or malware affecting your device"

That would be blantently illegal under the magnoson moss warranty act since the act of side loading can not be used to void the entire warranty of your Apple device. The only warranty repairs Apple could legally deny would be the sideloaded apps they can actually prove caused the damage, not speculate may have caused damage to use as a reason to deny warranty.

Actually, a lot of hardware i believe has a warranty sticker. If you open it up you voided the warranty. Software CAN brick your hardware and its not Apple's fault if you do. They can only held responsible for Apps approved via the app store.
 
So you make a requirement that the installer for the app has to declare what API's the app will use and what hardware/software it will access when running on your computer, and be signed, before it can actually complete the installation and run. This is a trivial check thing to do, coding-wise.
Yes of course every customer is going to know exactly what each api is doing? And each customer will click through scores of access rights for every app they install, and that process will become meaningful?

Lol… that’s not what any customer should have to do nor is it useful or stop people installing malicious files (as witnesses by android as numerous access rights per install that everyone just clicks through anyway).

That’s not going to work.
 
Actually, a lot of hardware i believe has a warranty sticker. If you open it up you voided the warranty. Software CAN brick your hardware and its not Apple's fault if you do. They can only held responsible for Apps approved via the app store.
That sticker was ruled illegal by the FTC and companies were warned about this practice by the FTC. Here is the link. https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/1/1...ning-microsoft-sony-nintendo-asus-htc-hyundai So side loading apps alone is not enough to void warranty unless Apple can actually prove the side loaded application caused the damage.
 
I feel a lot of malware that has already been installed on corporate networks, home computers and probably a lot of phones (mostly Android) has been lying dormant for a while and in the advent of conflict or war the malware will activate and form a botnet to disrupt businesses and spy on communications.

If something like that happens a lot of people who were screaming for third party app stores and side loading on phones will suddenly go silent. You'll see them eat their words and start asking for better security and stronger sandboxes.
 
That sticker was ruled illegal by the FTC and companies were warned about this practice by the FTC. Here is the link. https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/1/1...ning-microsoft-sony-nintendo-asus-htc-hyundai So side loading apps alone is not enough to void warranty unless Apple can actually prove the side loaded application caused the damage.

apologies, this is some serious customer protection laws right there. None the less, if I was a manufacturer I can only guarantee my product as is, further manipulation by the consumer is not my responsibility unless the customer is willing to do the legal work to prove that his manipulation of the product did not indeed break the it.

I can't imagine Apple investigating every jail broken phone on their budget
 
It’s very simple. Forcing Apple to operate the same as other manufacturers and removing their ability to have a walled garden will remove consumer choice.
Those arguing otherwise have misunderstood or at the very least twisted what this means to fit their own narrative, but that doesn’t change anything.
If the walled garden is removed, then consumer choice of having an os with such an approach is also removed.
 
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Then don't, and leave the functionality turned off in the settings. See how easy that was?
It is NOT that easy.
That would be ok if important apps will not emigrate to other app stores, or would be available on both. Not convinced.
 
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Then don't! Choice is good.

I haven't downloaded anything from an android third party app store either. Mainly because everything I want is in the google store -- the choice of other stores tends to put pressure on google to not disallow things arbitrarily like Apple does. And no, I never had an android virus either.
It is NOT that easy.
That would be ok if important apps will not emigrate to other app stores, or would be available on both. Not convinced.
 
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It is NOT that easy.
That would be ok if important apps will not emigrate to other app stores, or would be available on both. Not convinced.
It certainly is that easy, just look at android for the model. I have yet to sideload anything on android because I didn't need to. The consumer pressure is more than enough to make sure all the big selling/downloading apps will be in the google store. (one of my phones is android, and I also have an android tablet.)
 
It certainly is that easy, just look at android for the model. I have yet to sideload anything on android because I didn't need to. The consumer pressure is more than enough to make sure all the big selling/downloading apps will be in the google store. (one of my phones is android, and I also have an android tablet.)
But the problem here, and the main concern against those that are against it, is that a switch is not a secure enough measure. Nor is anything other than not allowing it.

You see - the problem is that everyone and their grandma has an iPhone.

‘Everyone’ does not include the tech heads on this site.

So these email phishing scams, and other such bad practices, facebook scams designed to persuade you to download malware. Anything like that, will suddenly have an avenue into iOS, where there is not one at them moment.

The SECOND it’s allowed, there will be a huge influx of such campaigns. Now- most people do not fall for them. But even 1 in a 1000 is a large number to a newly opened market.

It’s extremely easy to persuade people to bypass security and privacy measures - either because they really want the app, they’re tricked in to it (bank sends Nan an email saying she must download the new bank app or all her money will be inaccessible - for example).

Look at the amount of people that click through the Eula of everything! It’s so completely normal to bypass this type of thing that there is an ‘agree’ button on the first page of it! Look at what has happened in the world regarding data gathering and social networks.

The only way to keep iOS as secure as it undeniably is now - is to not allow it at all. That’s a fact that even the most ardent opposition stance cannot deny. Regardless as to whether you want it or not.

I know - the world hasn’t collapsed because android allows it. But also, android has problems that iOS doesn’t have in this respect.

I know, traditional os’ have allowed it since the beginning - but this isn’t a traditional os or a traditional system. It’s fundamentally different. Everything about it is. Sure, it’s a powerful computer - but it’s also the most secure general purpose computing possible - by design.

You all go on about choice, but choice already exists. It exists for any other desire, yet there is only one choice for a general purpose mobile OS which is designed as a walled garden - iOS.

Making iOS like the others is removing choice, not enabling choice.
 
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But the problem here, and the main concern against those that are against it, is that a switch is not a secure enough measure. Nor is anything other than not allowing it.

You see - the problem is that everyone and their grandma has an iPhone.

‘Everyone’ does not include the tech heads on this site.

So these email phishing scams, and other such bad practices, facebook scams designed to persuade you to download malware. Anything like that, will suddenly have an avenue into iOS, where there is not one at them moment.

The SECOND it’s allowed, there will be a huge influx of such campaigns. Now- most people do not fall for them. But even 1 in a 1000 is a large number to a newly opened market.

It’s extremely easy to persuade people to bypass security and privacy measures - either because they really want the app, they’re tricked in to it (bank sends Nan an email saying she must download the new bank app or all her money will be inaccessible - for example).

Look at the amount of people that click through the Eula of everything! It’s so completely normal to bypass this type of thing that there is an ‘agree’ button on the first page of it! Look at what has happened in the world regarding data gathering and social networks.

The only way to keep iOS as secure as it undeniably is now - is to not allow it at all. That’s a fact that even the most ardent opposition stance cannot deny. Regardless as to whether you want it or not.

I know - the world hasn’t collapsed because android allows it. But also, android has problems that iOS doesn’t have in this respect.

I know, traditional os’ have allowed it since the beginning - but this isn’t a traditional os or a traditional system. It’s fundamentally different. Everything about it is. Sure, it’s a powerful computer - but it’s also the most secure general purpose computing possible - by design.

You all go on about choice, but choice already exists. It exists for any other desire, yet there is only one choice for a general purpose mobile OS which is designed as a walled garden - iOS.

Making iOS like the others is removing choice, not enabling choice.
All I can say is I disagree, and big time, both in your fear, and in my choice. Choice doesn't exist in the Apple App Store, period. They don't show what they don't want to, no matter if it would be useful to the people with iPhones or not and that's just not acceptable. And no, telling people to switch to android isn't a choice unless you get someone to write an android loader for it. Otherwise you have to pony up and buy a whole new phone. There's a billion iPhones out there and Apple is deciding what people can install all by their lonesome.

If you want a totally secure phone, there's plenty of old style phones out there with no app store, buy one yourself. I bet you wont, even though it's obviously more secure than an iPhone. Heck, an old landline phone would be so much more secure it's laughable. Are you really looking for security?
 
All I can say is I disagree, and big time, both in your fear, and in my choice. Choice doesn't exist in the Apple App Store, period. They don't show what they don't want to, no matter if it would be useful to the people with iPhones or not and that's just not acceptable. And no, telling people to switch to android isn't a choice unless you get someone to write an android loader for it. Otherwise you have to pony up and buy a whole new phone. There's a billion iPhones out there and Apple is deciding what people can install all by their lonesome.

If you want a totally secure phone, there's plenty of old style phones out there with no app store, buy one yourself. I bet you wont, even though it's obviously more secure than an iPhone. Heck, an old landline phone would be so much more secure it's laughable. Are you really looking for security?
You understand nothing at all about security if you think an old flip phone is more secure than any modern phone least of all an iPhone. I think you’re confusing the potential anonymity aspect gained with a throwaway phone? But with only sms to send messages in it’s far far far from secure, and that’s just one aspect.

Anyway, that’s not really a suitable argument. Typical of someone with a fixed idea on what they believe - why don’t you address the alternate viewpoints made all across this and many other threads rather than chucking fluff out to derail the conversation? You never ever do.

I know That you want to side load. You know - I’d like it too to be honest. But that’s not at all what my comment is saying. It’s asking you to look past your own face and into the world - if you do you will see exactly where everyone against this is coming from.

Also: no asked anyone to ‘switch to Android’ - but if you got an iPhone with no knowledge of how it works in the respect of app stores etc, then that’s on you. No? Perhaps next time you purchase a phone you will do what you should do when making any purchase, and buy one which fits your needs.
 
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You understand nothing at all about security if you think an old flip phone is more secure than any modern phone least of all an iPhone. I think you’re confusing the potential anonymity aspect gained with a throwaway phone? But with only sms to send messages in it’s far far far from secure, and that’s just one aspect.

Anyway, that’s not really a suitable argument. Typical of someone with a fixed idea on what they believe - why don’t you address the alternate viewpoints made all across this and many other threads rather than chucking fluff out to derail the conversation? You never ever do.

I know That you want to side load. You know - I’d like it too to be honest. But that’s not at all what my comment is saying. It’s asking you to look past your own face and into the world - if you do you will see exactly where everyone against this is coming from.

Also: no asked anyone to ‘switch to Android’ - but if you got an iPhone with no knowledge of how it works in the respect of app stores etc, then that’s on you. No? Perhaps next time you purchase a phone you will do what you should do when making any purchase, and buy one which fits your needs.
You went past acceptable behavior in a discussion, so bye bye.
 
If they get their way money laundering and theft won't only be with monkey jpegs. Fake apps will be everywhere. Anyone remember this...

1643757521769.png
 
You're making my point for me. Why should I have to worry that clicking on a link in a browser will destroy my personal device? Am I not allowed to live in a world where that cant happen? Its amazing how much 'Stockholm syndrome' windows and intel have brought to computing. As if we HAVE to be prisoners to this concept, and then love it too!
No, I'm not making your point for you. You are lobbying for a scenario in which the end user has no personal responsibility for their actions. You want to instead put that responsibility on the device manufacturer or app developers who, while they have a duty to provide the best product they can, are not realistically able to forecast every action of every consumer beforehand. You should know better than to click that link if you don't know where it is from. You literally lose nothing except MAYBE you don't get to see yet another Hamster Dance or cat video.


The issue with security is that all doors need locks and therefore keys. But if a door exists there is a way in, either getting the key or breaking down the door. Thats why if you have a wall no one can get through. The less doors and keys the less issues that can happen. Thats why there is a walled garden. Its by design. And it works. Look at the number of security exploits on iOS vs Android over the years, or any other system. Its not even in the same ball park.
The number of security exploits on iOS vs Android are actually quite similar, and major security researchers are now saying Android may now have the upper hand in this space, and it's been this way for a couple of years now at least. https://onezero.medium.com/is-android-getting-safer-than-ios-4a2ca6f359d3


It maybe anti-trust in terms of how it benefits businesses in the market but I dont believe reducing choice actually benefits consumers. What is actually happening is that the govt is saying you CANNOT produce and OS that is secured by not allowing 3rd party distribution. Even though allowing 3rd party distribution is an attack vector for malicious files. They are therefore also saying console OS's should not exist either as its the same model. How is that helping consumers? They are reducing choice in favour of 3rd party businesses who want to make money off consumers. That is perverse.
Again, you're not reducing choice, you're increasing it by allowing folks more ways to purchase apps for their devices. That is the central focus, not whether iOS and Android are different animals. They always will be, even if iOS allows 3rd party stores. And those 3rd party businesses wanting to make money off consumers? That's what they are in business for, even when selling via Apple's store. Nothing perverse about it, they just want more of the money they earn through sales than Apple is willing to allow them to keep if they use the Apple store. They have a right to decide that, and to sell their software to anyone who wants to buy it, even if it's outside the App Store.


AT&T had a monopoly. Apple dont have a monopoly in the mobile space. Apple's OS is not physically entrenched like phone lines! Its easy for them to lose their position (ask Nokia, Blackberry etc..). Money doesnt mean you win (ask Windows Phone).
Apple is exercising monopoly power in *app distribution* on the iOS/iPadOS platforms, not in the wireless device market. They are completely different and you keep conflating them because it's convenient for your argument, but it's not a logically valid or cogent argument. Same with saying they aren't physically entrenched in the phone lines. It sounds good, but it is irrelevant to the actual issue.


What the govt is saying that a company cannot make a system and provide updates for that system. That is a lot of businesses (Canon printers.. ice cream machines etc...). There are a lot of legal precedents being made where people do not understand their consequences.
Except the government isn't saying that at all. Not even remotely. Apple can update their OS, their devices, their services all day long. They just can't prevent you from purchasing software you want to run on a device you legally own when the only thing stopping it is their gatekeeping. If nobody developed or could develop for iOS, that would be another story. We see devices with closed OS's all the time that aren't designed to run 3rd party applications. But this is not the case with Apple. They not only open their OS to outside developers, they encourage it, but then only allow you to sell it via their store, at a commission that they demand.

You bring up printers, which is actually a good example of my point. I don't recall if it is still the case, but HP and other manufacturers got in trouble some years back because they required you to use their toner/ink cartridges and nobody else's or the would void your warranty. The *only* reason they had for this was to make more money off the consumer and limit where they could purchase, even though perfectly working, acceptable, and safe alternatives were on the market. The courts were not kind to HP, and HP has been in trouble several times since for trying to block 3rd party cartridges with fake error messages that prevent the printer from functioning, etc. Do you really want Apple to engage in similar practices? I for one, do not, and since I legally own the device after purchase, I have some legal say in the matter.
 
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Market cap means nothing and we should all learn to stop talking about it. These "market caps" disintegrated in just a few weeks when the first virus wave came.
And yet Apple's market cap (and that of other companies that make computing and mobile devices) continued to grow during the pandemic. Apple reached that $3 trillion two years into the pandemic.
 
What happens if Apple is forced to allow sideloading... but nobody does it?

Let's not forget that sideloading has been on Android for over a decade... yet most app transactions still go through the official Google Play Store. (with Google taking their commission!)

So even though Android developers can sell their wares on their own website... hardly any of them do.

I remember when Epic tried to go the sideloading route for Fortnite on Android. But it didn't go so well and they came crawling back to the Google Play Store.

In other words... Epic had the most popular game in the world at that time... and they still couldn't get people to sideload it.

So maybe sideloading isn't the magic bullet developers think it will be.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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