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Section 2.7 directly addresses Natural Forcing, including 2.7.1 Solar Variability, which is one topic you touched on earlier. The IPCC of course is investigating human factors, but in doing so, they have numerous times considered other factors in their attribution studies.

Both include human activity. My added emphasis above in the quote you referenced highlights their own definition of climate change and what influences they consider. You'll see they consider more than human influences.

They briefly summarize several known cosmic scientists works and their findings as low impact and unlikely. They failed to include Svensmark's findings in the chart, because it offers a completely valid and intriguing alternative viewpoint. They introduced that section not in consideration, but as dismissive. That is what I find aggravating about current scientists; they are so easy to dismiss everything outside of what they believe. Science has become this strange new religion where people do not accept criticism anymore. Whenever there is a consensus of individuals, they work to block those who might conflict with their research and grant money.

My favorite modern example is the shroud of Turin. Scientists went with the hypothesis that it had to have been a medieval fake. They carbon tested it and proved beyond reason of doubt, that it had been made in the 12th or 13th century. With that, many did not feel the need to explain all the irregularities with the shroud, nor how such a strange stereographic image could be made. They worked to PROVE why they were right, and did not want to consider that there are other possibilities.

Then comes along this couple, and they used the internet to come up with a hypothesis. Under different light spectrums, the edges of the cloth appeared in a different spectrum then the center where the image is. They hypothesized that the cloth was tattered and in the 12th or 13th century, special weaving was added to the fringe in a french technique to make it whole for display.

One of the scientists, an atheist, who had worked hard to prove that the cloth was a fake, got permission to take one of the samples and prove without a doubt that he and the rest of the community were correct. His findings were shocking, and also interestingly passed over by the media that had trumpeted the shroud as a fake. The couple was right, and he wrote a lengthy thesis about his findings that had shocked him.

I feel that it is the duty of our leaders, both corporate and government, to investigate all possibilities. This very narrow approach to a complex world wide system has been given so much money and time, while massive problems go overlooked. I am all for being more environmental responsible, but at the cost and scope they are talking about, is ridiculous. Conservation is responsible, fear mongering is not.
 
competitive?

Such an organisation makes the entire industry move at its slowest speed.

When a company wants to do more, it puts itself at a cost disadvantage to its competitors who are doing the least in order to save money, as environmental regulation does lead to higher costs initially, until the technology matures. So Apple is consistently taking the first-mover hit.

So it's anti-competitive really. It's protecting companies that don't want to innovate and improve as fast as other competitors. Therefore it damages the environment because the entire industry moves as slow as possible.
 
It is unfortunate that your company didn't take the time to understand the Chamber's position on climate and forfeited the opportunity to advance a 21st century approach to climate change," U.S. Chamber of Commerce Chief Executive Tom Donohue wrote in a letter to the Apple chief executive. He said that the business group is committed to the environment but also to preserving the competitiveness of American business.

It is telling to look at the Chamber's response to Apple yesterday, then look at their comments TODAY bashing legislation on climate change...

http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2...ays-clean-energy-mandates-distort-the-market/

They try to see so neutral to appease the public, but as has already been noted, it's all about profits for big business.
 
exactly my point...thanks.

Which point would that be ... ? You've made various specious "points" in this thread, including questioning whether there is any global warming phenomenon at all, regardless of cause. Confronted with evidence in the form of photos of melting glaciers, you fell back on a ludicrous claim that there is no evidence to support a link between global warming and human activity. I have news for you, chum, the vast majority of qualified scientists throughout the world agree that there is evidence of a link. Finally, you retreated to that last bastion of false argument: you simply don't believe that the evidence proves the link. Well, fine. It's pretty clear that your views are based on ideology, not science. Like all "deniers", you bring nothing to the table but intellectual bankruptcy.
 
This thread is proof of how far behind the citizens of the US are compared to the majority of the rest of the world in basic scientific understanding. I'd place a wager that more of them get their scientific knowledge from Rush Limbaugh then someone like Stephen Hawking.

Agreed. Sadly agreed, because i live in the US, but still....

If that doesn't scare you, look at the state of Texas school board and their school book choices and how that effects the entire nation. Be afraid.
 
My favorite modern example is the shroud of Turin.

Wow, just wow. Lets just stop right there.

Are you serious? The freaking shroud of turin?

See the above comment on how backwards many people are about science...
 
Wish the climate would hurry up and "change". They've been promising this "change" since the mid-80s. Canada is too damn cold. :p

At least its not like the 70s when they were predicting the next ice age, would hate that one.
 
Clean energy in China?

When a previous post claimed that China is a leader in renewable energy, my coffee exited my nostrils at great velocity. China is certainly the leader in dirty energy, building a coal powered plant at a rate of almost one a week.

Khrushchev was prescient - but instead of the Russkies burying us, we are doing to ourselves with the scam passed by Congress known as Cap and Trade.

And for all the Kool-Aid drinkers on this forum, Apple IS big business.
 
When there's an article in Science or Nature disproving climate change I'll switch sides. But so far there hasn't been a single article published that disproves existing science.

http://www.tmgnow.com/repository/solar/lassen1.html

This doesn't disprove climate change, but proves that they are other forces at work that are affecting the climate. Not man.

Sources are at the end.

What caused climate change before modern industry got here?
 
There is no Hollywood-backed, Gore-led, eco-lobby against child labor! Pay attention. Saving Polar Bears and fiction about melting ice cubes is trendy now and far more important than poor Chinese children in forced labor camps! Child labor is not du jour toward the current concern... Get on the bandwagon with bashing USA and patronizing China... Apple doesn't care about this nation! You should know that! If its products are manufactured by Chinese kids, in a Chinese nation that pollutes like none other, and has a bad Chinese record of human rights, who cares? We need to bash the US Chamber of Commerce because that's the real bad guy here!

Hahahaha.

I love how the American right-wing suddenly become champions of children/workers' rights when the subject of climate change is brought up.
 
Wow, just wow. Lets just stop right there.

Are you serious? The freaking shroud of turin?

See the above comment on how backwards many people are about science...

The scientific analysis and study of the said piece of cloth is an interesting example because of the polarity presented, much like climate change, etc. I have not said anything involving my beliefs on the object. I just brought up another scientific debate as an example of what holding onto one viewpoint without answering all questions can lead to, and how a differing approach can prove fruitful to the analysis. I fail to see how that would make my thinking, or others "backwards".

I am not willing to accept everything unless other angles are explored, and I feel Apple should be more vague about these positions as well. I have no problem with their company stance on being more responsible, but I feel their criticisms are often very hypocritical.
 
Hahahaha.

I love how the American right-wing suddenly become champions of children/workers' rights when the subject of climate change is brought up.

Agreed. But I would slightly amend this to read: "champions of other nations' workers' rights". They're certainly no champions of American workers, unless you count the occasional lip-service.
 
Global Warming is not a Myth

as some righties on here want to promote. Over 90% of the scientifi community knows global warming to be a fact, and the main culprit being CO2 emissions... this isn't a "cycle" and it isn't a "myth". Get your heads out of the sand and turn fox news off. You are an embarrassment to even repeat that nonsense.

The debate is over... now go tell your right wing propagandists to get get out of our way, so we can do something about it.

Who would you listen to? The global scientific community, or a handful of paid sock=puppets for big oil/Fox News? If you chose the latter, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if you believed in creationism as well, or that Obama was a Machurian candidate...
 
3D0G said:
Hmm. How could you have missed the War in Iraq! Who created that unnecessary (and utterly destructive) crisis?! And who was obsessed with the so-called "War on Terror" in order to perpetually divert the public's attention from other failures?

Don't forget the war on drugs. Largely a Republican creation, and primary excuse for decades of appalling policies in Latin America.

I'll take "The Terrorists" for 20 Alex...

Yeah, except none of "the terrorists" came from Iraq, nor was there ever any proof (something you claim to care about when it comes to climate change) that the Iraqi government was in anyway involved in 9/11 or any other acts of terrorism.

While they certainly didn't discourage this false belief, even the Bush administration claimed the war against Iraq was about Iraq's supposed weapons of mass destruction, not alleged involvement in 9/11. Yet over 6 years later we still hear this ignorance. Stick to discussing what you know - the Middle East is clearly NOT it.
 
Like when they thought the Earth was flat?

Well...people, with fewer and fewer exceptions as time goes on, stopped believing the Earth was flat long before the scientific method, as practiced for the last few hundred years, really evolved. So I wouldn't say that a majority of scientists ever thought the world was flat.
 
Thats the great thing

Agreed. But I would slightly amend this to read: "champions of other nations' workers' rights". They're certainly no champions of American workers, unless you count the occasional lip-service.


holy cow. That is/was the great thing about America.
Don't like your job? Get a new one.
Cant get a new job? Learn something then get a new one.

Its pretty simple.

American "Right wing" is about being accountable for yourself. Not about some suits being accountable for everyone.

So don't try to say that America doesn't care about it's workers.
 
So don't try to say that America doesn't care about it's workers.

I'm not. I'm saying the Republicans don't care about American workers, at least not when it might have an impact on corporate profits.

But don't get me wrong--I'll all for more personal responsibility (that's one area where I tend to side with Republicans). But workers/citizens acting individually will never be able to challenge the power of large corporations for fair treatment without a government that levels the playing field with policy decisions.
 
look, guys, it's very simple. we are not arguing, whether humans have an influence in the rise of co2-levels, are we? the real argue only has to be:
Does a rise in co2 influence global climate?

i'm not a climatologist but an electrical engineer. but the only dataset i need to understand, that it WILL influence global climate is this:
co2Temperature.gif


regarding the source: i know this is not a scientific website but I'm afraid I couldn't find a better source for that aggregated graph. I also tried Wolfram Alpha but they don't have climatology data up yet. if anyone can, plz go ahead. Btw. WHY is it, that scientific data often is not public or at least not well accessible? How long until Wolfram Research and/or Google finally revolutionizes that?

Now, what does it say? Look at the natural cycle withouth human influence: We have a VERY strong correlation of CO2 and Temperature Levels over Thousands of years, meaning, they are undeniably related. Just look at the data, ok? Whether it's a lead or lag between temperature and co2-rise doesn't even matter since the phase of growth in each cycle is exponential and therefore needs to have some positive feedback. meaning: temperature rise leads to co2 rise, which makes the temperature rise even stronger until the system reaches a certain point where it falls back (i guess algies in the sea growing exp. which starts consuming away co2?).
Now look at the end, where humans kick in.. thats WAY off the natural cycle. What does this mean? WE DON'T KNOW. But regarding the data it seems pretty obvious that it will affect the climate in a way we probably won't like.

Does it really need more arguing to settle the fact, that we have to get that CO2 down at least to some extent? Even if we could freeze it at the current level or the 1990 levels (Kyoto), its still way off.
 
But regarding the data it seems pretty obvious that it will affect the climate in a way we probably won't like.

Like the Earth's climate has never been hotter than it is right now.

Does it really need more arguing to settle the fact, that we have to get that CO2 down at least to some extent? Even if we could freeze it at the current level or the 1990 levels (Kyoto), its still way off.

So you are telling me that man made CO2, that accounts for 3% of the total greenhouse gases that is in the atmosphere (if you ignore water vapor which accounts for 95% of greenhouse gases, so the number is obviously a LOT smaller), is going to make that much difference?

Why don't we go after the real culprit, The Oceans. The oceans account for about 95% of the CO2 in our atmosphere.

And yes, there is a correlation between the two. The hotter it is, the more CO2 the oceans emit, the colder it is the oceans produce less. It's not that hard guys.
 
I'm not. I'm saying the Republicans don't care about American workers, at least not when it might have an impact on corporate profits.

And if corporations didn't have profits, how could they afford to employ the American work force? I don't know one poor person that has ever employed anyone.:rolleyes:
 
man, did you even read what i wrote? if yes, please do it again, you entirely missed my point.

Like the Earth's climate has never been hotter than it is right now.

i DIDN'T argue that the earth is hotter than ever now. i wrote that WE DON'T KNOW what will happen, but that it certainly will affect climate. chances are, that we are bringing the system entirely out of balance and we simply don't have the computers yet to simulate what will happen. it could be ice age, it could be desert all around, it could have no effect, it could be anything. do you really think it's smart to play around with something we don't understand (yet)? it's like giving a gasburner to your 3-year-old.

So you are telling me that man made CO2 that accounts for 3% of the total greenhouse gases that is in the atmosphere (if you ignore water vapor which accounts for 95% of greenhouse gases, so the number is obviously a LOT smaller) is going to make that much difference?
did you even look at the graph? it says, that in the last 500'000 years, the co2 level, even at its peaks, has NEVER been much higher than 0.03%, while NOW we are close to 0.04%, which is a 30% more. also, the rise in co2 has NEVER been that fast. Note, that the natural peak levels always led to a sudden decrease in temperature. Beyond that level we simply do not know what happens.

Why don't we go after the real culprit, The Oceans. The oceans account for about 95% of the CO2 in our atmosphere.

And yes, there is a correlation between the two. The hotter it is, the more CO2 the oceans emit, the colder it is the oceans produce less. It's not that hard guys.

  1. do you really think, that the co2-rise since the 19th century is ocean-related? can you explain, how the ocean is suddenly emitting so much more?
  2. what do you suggest then? pumping away the ocean? nuking greenland, so that it releases ice into the water? :S
 
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