U.S. Department of Justice Investigating Claims AT&T, Verizon and GSMA Colluded to Prevent Customers From Easily Switching Carriers [Updated]

[SteveJUAE]

You're missing the point. Swapping the SIM isn't the difficult part (though it certainly is more annoying and time consuming than selecting from a list).

The hindrance is getting a new SIM in the first place. Imagine a world where you couldn't change your browser or default search engine without going to a store or waiting for the mail. Do you think that wouldn't affect competition?

This is especially true when traveling. If I go somewhere for a week, chances are I'm not going to research rates and find a place to buy a SIM. I'll just live with the outrageous roaming charges and limit my usage. But if it's just a tap away, I'll certainly do it.

Why would you need to do that, most good countries/airports sell tourist sims like buying a packet of chips/crisps

Get one slide it in and it will last a week or more, it could not be easier and many airlines stock universal sims that work in many counties at set rates

 

[yanki01]

All I know is that since I got an iPhone X I have been getting 4 times the message telling me "I used all my 1GB of shared data added". I mean... the extras GBs they give once you used your plan. Mine is 6GB or something with AT&T.

I never had that problem with my iPhone 5, probably once every 3 months or something. With my, iPhone X is EVERY MONTH!!!! and I am not doing anything different. I do not watch movies or play games. Just GPS, Instagram when I am bored and checking emails. Same routine.

i said that when i went from my iP5 > iP6. i had a smaller data plan on my iP5 and would hardly ever go over. never adjusted anything to use "less data". like brightness, fetch email, background usage, ect. on my iP6. i noticed right away that i was eating through data quick. i think my data plan was around 5 or 6gb/month on my iP5 and wouldn't go over. i had to increase up to 15gb for my iP6 becuase i would always get close or go over. I can't even open any social media app unless i'm on wifi without eating through at least 200MB+ in about 5mins of browsing (even more maybe).

 

[Carlanga]

Wow.
We only have two 3 mayor carriers. You wanna switch? No problem; call the one you wanna go. Next day you get their sim, number doesn’t change, 2 hours later you switcht. They take care of the agreement you have with the one you left. Or go to their store and on the same day you’re switcht.
No hassle

Don't forget the $30 'activation' fee each time even if you order online.

 

[SteveJUAE]

Hmm. I thought it was a lake in a country ruled by England! Oh, they spell it different.

LOL

But I think you may upset the Scotts with this, it's a lake in Scotland which is equally part of UK

 

[shplock]

I hate to say this but...

it is amazing how these sorts of issues and practices tend to always happen in the good ol USA. We have Tesla who can not sell direct in a few states because the car dealers got together and formed a lobby group who then fund politicians. The politicians then 'return the favour' to the lobby group to make sure that nothing happens to threaten that group's interested(I.E the car dealers). They basically shut down any person or company who would maybe take away their monopoly.
The same thing (if this is true which I believe probably is) is happening here it seems. Undertaking any activity no matter who underhanded or illegal it might be just as long as they get to keep their monopoly rather than move with the change and adapt.
Yes I know it happens in so many developed countries but it tends to happen as far as i am concerned in the USA far more.
Maybe the swamp still needs draining.

 

[supercoolmanchu]

And people say the free market will get rid of these types of practices... I'm all for the free market, but there needs to be at least some form of regulation..

Yes a ‘free market’ would sort this stuff out. But that’s nowhere close to what we have, telcos are already heavily regulated, and that’s the problem.

Big businesses love regulation because it protects them and locks out competition, and keeps the biggest players positions artificially secure in the market. This is Econ 101 stuff.

Only the biggest companies have the money to lobby politicians who appoint their pals to cushy regulator jobs. Only huge corporations have the money to spend on the various licensing and often completely asine hoops that politicians (lawyers) impose on business they know nothing about. Each and every government regulated industry suffers from this. Look it up.

 

[KPandian1]

Big businesses love regulation because it protects them and locks out competition, and keeps the biggest players positions artificially secure in the market.
Only the biggest companies have the money to lobby politicians who appoint their pals to cushy regulator jobs. Only huge corporations have the money to spend on the various licensing ... Each and every government regulated industry suffers from this.

Like peanuts in the USA - more expensive than in most of the world.

 

[kstotlani]

eSIMs as a whole are a bad idea. It makes it a lot easier for carriers to tie your device to them. Look at CDMA phones before they started using SIM cards; the phone was permanently locked to the carrier that sold it. There was no way to move the phone to another carrier.

SIM cards are probably the best invention ever; the carrier can retain control over the part of the phone that talks to their network through the SIM, whereas the rest of the phone is kept independent of that. When the GSM standard was first created, companies knew that this would be the best way to give the carriers some control while at the same time making the phone universal to all carriers. Now they're trying to reverse that? BAD idea.

I liked your post too soon and then realised SIM cards have been around for a while and ATT could lock the phone even then so not sure if it works like that. They are able to still lock your phone which uses GSM.

 

[VictorTango777]

I don't think blocking the use of esims is such a bad thing and entirely getting rid of a physical sims isn't a better solution!

If an Esim was implemented purely in software, there might be issues with managing those contracts or deals from providers EVEN MORE SO than with current sim tech. Just imagine the abuse that could occur if old esims are deactivated for spite if you leave a provider or your provider requires you to not deactivate or switch from their esims as part of your contract.

I love the idea of getting rid of essentially dead space inside a phone but I'm not sure there are any tangible benefits to the consumer other than being able to have burner numbers, but it introduces issues with standards and practices. Users might be LESS inclined to switch carriers, especially if the software to switch and manage sims is complex and UI and process is different on each phone, keeping numbers is another issue. If you are to implement esims the whole system needs to shift and be updated at the same time. A bit like voicemail was on an iPhone imo.

There is also the issue of people who have multiple devices and need to transfer service between them for various reasons. For example, people who use the same service on different phones, or businesses that keep spare phones on hand to swap out for their users.

 

[826317]

Yes a ‘free market’ would sort this stuff out. But that’s nowhere close to what we have, telcos are already heavily regulated, and that’s the problem.

Big businesses love regulation because it protects them and locks out competition, and keeps the biggest players positions artificially secure in the market. This is Econ 101 stuff.

Only the biggest companies have the money to lobby politicians who appoint their pals to cushy regulator jobs. Only huge corporations have the money to spend on the various licensing and often completely asine hoops that politicians (lawyers) impose on business they know nothing about. Each and every government regulated industry suffers from this. Look it up.

You're talking about lobbying. I'm talking about anti-collusion regulations. Yes only large companies have the resources to lobby for a certain politician to propose certain bills. That's not what I'm saying, I'm actually against lobbying.

There are good and bad regulations, you're talking about the bad ones. i.e the ones that "protects them and locks out competition". I'm talking about regulations that prevent corporations such as these from colluding with each other.
[doublepost=1524338678][/doublepost]

There is - they're called the Sherman Act, Clayton Act, and Federal Trade Commission Act, collectively known as the US Antitrust Laws. This investigation is occurring because of those.

Thanks for the heads up.

 

[cuestakid]

This might sound like a dumb question but please just humor me.

Apple wants people to buy their devices. Just like Google, Samsung, LG, etc. Here is what I do not get-

Why would they care what carrier you have? Why not make them buy a new iPhone/Galaxy/Pixek? It is in their interest to keep making money. I am not advocating for Monopolies (I believe you should use any phone on any carrier without penalty or difficulty). I am just not following why manufactures care.

 

[flyinmac]

You actually do own the locked phone. The lock-ness is just collateral for the loan.

Perhaps in the same sense that you “own” anything which you owe money against. We call it “ours” but stop making payments and find out exactly who it belongs to.
[doublepost=1524339258][/doublepost]

I finally decided to go with Apples upgrade program. Its a tad more of a hassle having two separate payments instead of one... but i prefer having Apple be in control of the hardware purchase, and not being committed to any carrier.

Yes, that works too. It’s essentially like leasing a car. Yours for the duration as long as you make the payments. Then either pay it off, or trade back to get a new one and continue payments.

 

[WolfSnap]

I refused to activate my iPad Pro on AT&T because I knew the eSim would be looked to AT&T. I only used T-Mobile because of this

This is proof that all carriers are shady in some way.

Not true. It was the Apple SIM that became locked. The eSIM does not lock to AT&T.
[doublepost=1524339327][/doublepost]

The iPad does not have an eSIM. It has an Apple SIM - a rewritable one. AT&T permanently writes on it, whereas T-Mobile does not. So there’s probably confusion here.

Yes, it does. Newer iPad's have the eSIM.. My iPad Pro 2nd gen certainly has one. The sim tray is empty.

It does NOT lock to any carrier.

 

[KPandian1]

This might sound like a dumb question ... Apple wants people to buy their devices. Just like Google, Samsung, LG, etc. Here is what I do not get - Why would they care what carrier you have?

Do you not remember how Apple forced ALL iPhone owners (in the USA) to subscribe to AT&T, and only AT&T?

 

[flyinmac]

This might sound like a dumb question but please just humor me.

Apple wants people to buy their devices. Just like Google, Samsung, LG, etc. Here is what I do not get-

Why would they care what carrier you have? Why not make them buy a new iPhone/Galaxy/Pixek? It is in their interest to keep making money. I am not advocating for Monopolies (I believe you should use any phone on any carrier without penalty or difficulty). I am just not following why manufactures care.

It’s because consumers don’t want to pay full retail on a phone. So Apple will sell them at a slight discount if you agree to use on of the selected carriers for service. That carrier then pays Apple the difference in price (what you saved, gets paid by the carrier).

Now that carrier has made an investment in you. And they want their investment back. So you are now locked to them until such time as you have repaid your debt to the carrier (plus some of course - even a bank charges interest).
[doublepost=1524339830][/doublepost]

Do you not remember how Apple forced ALL iPhone owners (in the USA) to subscribe to AT&T, and only AT&T?

Those phones were subsidized by AT&T. So consumers didn’t pay full retail.

Most iPhone sales are still being subsidized, even when purchased at Walmart or Best Buy, or even Apple. You just have more choices of who you want to subsidize the phone for you, and your phone will then become locked to that carrier until your loan / subsidy has been repaid.

It’s all in the small print.

If you want it fully unlocked, make sure you’re not buying the one that says this price if you use or activate with X carrier.

 

[JPack]

Why would you need to do that, most good countries/airports sell tourist sims like buying a packet of chips/crisps

Get one slide it in and it will last a week or more, it could not be easier and many airlines stock universal sims that work in many counties at set rates

Because you can avoid all that.

Dual-SIM means you rarely need to swap SIMs.

There exists more than tourists in this world. Many people travel between countries/territories every week. Other people have two local plans on their phone: one for data and one for voice. You can get the best deals for what you need.

 

[nt5672]

And people say the free market will get rid of these types of practices... I'm all for the free market, but there needs to be at least some form of regulation..

Before regulation we need transparency. If the government was able to enforce transparency so we knew what we were purchasing, it would go a long way. But then the government does not believe in transparency, so why would they?

 

[JPack]

Why? Is it so important that everyone walks in lock-step with everyone else? I think fully paid for phones should be immediately unlocked, they are the sole property of the owner. But I also don't believe that the way one country sells an item is automatically the best way for another to sell it. There are a lot of factors and costs that people here don't consider when comparing one country's practices with another's. Just because it works well in one area of the world doesn't mean it well somewhere else.

Dual-SIM gives the user additional choices.

Even budget phones from over a decade ago around the world have dual-SIM. The only reason Americans don't consider dual-SIM is because the oligopoly carriers don't want to make it easy to change providers.

 

[69650]

Dual-SIM would be better for me than e-SIM becuase I could use the same iPhone for business and personal contracts.

 

[SteveJUAE]

Because you can avoid all that.

Dual-SIM means you rarely need to swap SIMs.

There exists more than tourists in this world. Many people travel between countries/territories every week. Other people have two plans on their phone: one for data and one for voice.

You misunderstand I am pro dual sim I was just noting how easy it is to pick up an additional sim so you can still receive messages etc from home but roam at local rates on 2nd sim

 

[KPandian1]

Those phones were subsidized by AT&T. So consumers didn’t pay full retail.

This is about being forced to "marry" the carrier if you wanted the iPhone, not the cost of the iPhone and the subsidies involved.

How generous was the subsidy by the monopoly carrier? The carriers cost more than the phones, even now. One of the reasons why the USA has one of the highest cost for cellphone plans, the other reason is why the Feds are investigating. Collusion, RICO, ...

 

[4jasontv]

Big businesses love regulation because it protects them and locks out competition, and keeps the biggest players positions artificially secure in the market. This is Econ 101 stuff.

Exactly. This is why Zuckerberg "isn't against social media regulation". Right now there is nothing that stops someone from registering with GoDaddy and overthrowing his kingdom. But... if the industry was regulated any new social media platforms would likely be unable to amass the user base. Telco's rely on limited spectrum to keep the competition at bay, and then no one really tries to threaten the others.

 

[Packers1958]

Now the real reason why Verizon wants to lock all their new phones has come to light.

 

[mariusignorello]

Now THIS type of collusion I can believe.

 

[MadeMyDay]

I always think it is odd how when I bring an unlocked device to a carrier, the first thing they do is charge me to insert one of their SIMS.