U.S. Department of Justice Investigating Claims AT&T, Verizon and GSMA Colluded to Prevent Customers From Easily Switching Carriers [Updated]

[apolloa]

I don’t want any semi thank you, the ONLY reason companies like Apple want it is profit, plain and simple, it saves them manufacturing costs not having to build a sim tray and reader into their devices.
Also Apples hypocrisy is palpable complaining about carriers, considering they are usually screwing them over..

In the U.K. if you get a phone from certain carriers it is locked to that carrier but it is also easy to unlock it, they have made it illegal to not offer unlock codes if asked. Also only certain outlets will sell phones that are truly unlocked and you can put any sim in them.

Meh I’m going of tangent, you should be allowed to unlock your phone from a carrier period, and I don’t want esims.

 

[PKoz]

It seems everybody is trying to get you into his walled garden. I’m happy Apple isn’t a carrier!

I was actually hoping Apple would buy Sprint and then bid on the best bands and supply the whole thing themselves. I don't like any of the current carriers. None of them respect privacy or an open internet. I'd be happy to see Apple enter this market and take major market share from them. The internet is being provided by the likes of AT&T and Verizon on the wireless side, and largely Comcast on the wired side. None of these are friendly. And we have Google which is watching everything. I for one am quite sick of it.

I'm tired of who owns the media and the poor reporting that goes on. Apple needs to become a major provider. That will allow them to create the services they truly envision.

 

[charlituna]

If you want to bring Steve back to life, put dual sim drawers on an iPhone. He will literally raise himself from the dead and beat Tim Cook and Jony Ive half to death.

no he won't. because he trained Tim, picked Tim and told Tim to run Apple the way that Tim felt it should be, not to try to be Steve. so if Tim felt that it was the right move to go dual sim, then Steven would approve of it
[doublepost=1524364894][/doublepost]

I was actually hoping Apple would buy Sprint and then bid on the best bands and supply the whole thing themselves.

Apple is probably more interested in mesh wifi etc than cell tech

 

[pika2000]

Finally someone stood up on this (Apple). AT&T has been user hostile from day 1 of the original iPhone. As for Verizon, good thing there’s a regulation that forces them to have their LTE phone so unlocked.

Of course, none of those sponsored tech “journalists” even mention or discuss these locking shenanigans of the US carriers.

Gotta hand it to Apple who keep pushing things against the draconian carriers. Other manufacturers are still bending over for the carriers (limited LTE bands, carrier bloatware, etc)

 

[gavroche]

no he won't. because he trained Tim, picked Tim and told Tim to run Apple the way that Tim felt it should be, not to try to be Steve. so if Tim felt that it was the right move to go dual sim, then Steven would approve of it
[doublepost=1524364894][/doublepost]

Apple is probably more interested in mesh wifi etc than cell tech

Didnt Jobs recruit John Sculley to be CEO of Apple... only to have Sculley later stab him in the back and oust him from Apple? I dont think that turned out the way he planned it. We have no way at all to know if Steve would have approved of all the decisions and direction Tim has taken. And his succession was more or less accelerated and non-optional, given the circumstaces of his illness.

 

[TLNZstudios]

please everyone do us all a favor. right before you bitch here send an email bitching to the FCC, and Congress. Break their servers. and don't stop till they get the message LOUD and CLEAR, their jobs are on the line.

 

[JackieInCo]

Not true. It was the Apple SIM that became locked. The eSIM does not lock to AT&T.
[doublepost=1524339327][/doublepost]
Yes, it does. Newer iPad's have the eSIM.. My iPad Pro 2nd gen certainly has one. The sim tray is empty.

It does NOT lock to any carrier.

Yes, someone else already corrected me on this earlier.

 

[pika2000]

And people say the free market will get rid of these types of practices... I'm all for the free market, but there needs to be at least some form of regulation..

Actually, a true free market will definitely not have things like these.
One has to know that the wireless provider market is NOT a free market to begin with. So yes, regulations are needed to be put in place, but not because it is a free market being abused, but because it is NOT a free market.

 

[Chupa Chupa]

I think you are misunderstanding no one is suggesting one way, simply that you may not have the same freedom of choice offered elsewhere

I don't think I'm misunderstanding what OP wrote. He said "Time to wake up and see how the rest of the world works!" Condensed further: do it like the rest of the world. I'll refer back to the post you responded to for why that sentiment may not work here.

Also I disagree that U.S. customers don't have the same "freedom of choice offered elsewhere." We can buy an unlocked phone or chose to get free financing with the phone locked while it's being paid off. We can buy a phone as PAYGO or as month-to-month. We have free phones, near free phones, mid-range phones, and luxury phones. Whatever ones budget there is a phone to match.

As I said in my original post, I do think once a phone is paid off in full it should be immediately unlocked. Some carriers won't do that for a month or longer after it's paid off, and that is wrong. Also some carriers won't unlock a used paid off phone if the buyer doesn't have an account. Also wrong. If a phone has a clean IMEI the carrier should be required to unlock it. Period.
[doublepost=1524401133][/doublepost]

Dual-SIM gives the user additional choices.

Even budget phones from over a decade ago around the world have dual-SIM. The only reason Americans don't consider dual-SIM is because the oligopoly carriers don't want to make it easy to change providers.

But I didn't say anything negative about dual-SIM phones. Also dual-SIM phones don't necessarily make it easier to change providers. A locked phone is a locked phone no matter how many lines a phone is capable of having. Sure, carriers don't want consumers switching but they do want them to sign up for multiple lines on their network. Multiple lines on one phone is actually more cost efficient for carriers than a consumer having two phones.

 

[glowplug]

If Apple would just start their own MVNO, this would cease to be a problem.

 

[cmaier]

If Apple would just start their own MVNO, this would cease to be a problem.

They’d have to do it in every country. Not so easy.

 

[glowplug]

They’d have to do it in every country. Not so easy.

Google Fi works very well. Why would it be harder for Apple to do?

 

[tito2020]

AT&T and Verizon? Collusion?

Say it isn't so. How could such benevolent companies possibly be associated with such a term?

What would happen next? Something as crazy as...

verizon has there phones locked so what is the deal here.

 

[GoodWheaties]

Not true. It was the Apple SIM that became locked. The eSIM does not lock to AT&T.
[doublepost=1524339327][/doublepost]
Yes, it does. Newer iPad's have the eSIM.. My iPad Pro 2nd gen certainly has one. The sim tray is empty.

It does NOT lock to any carrier.

Right on Apple’s website it says if you buy an LTE iPad directly from AT&T the embedded Apple SIM will be locked to AT&T. Am I misunderstanding?

 

[JustinRP37]

Right on Apple’s website it says if you buy an LTE iPad directly from AT&T the embedded Apple SIM will be locked to AT&T. Am I misunderstanding?

Nobody is arguing that if you buy from AT&T it will be locked! If you do not buy from AT&T, it WILL NOT BE LOCKED, nor will it ever be locked. If you buy from Apple, Best Buy, or literally ANY other retailer, then you can choose AT&T as the carrier and the eSim will not lock. You can switch from AT&T to any other eSim supported carrier. In the states that is AT&T, Sprint, T-Mobile, and some small pay as you go carriers.

Further, why would anyone buy a iPad from a carrier unless they got a really good deal on it? Just buy like you would a computer.

 

[GoodWheaties]

Nobody is arguing that if you buy from AT&T it will be locked! If you do not buy from AT&T, it WILL NOT BE LOCKED, nor will it ever be locked. If you buy from Apple, Best Buy, or literally ANY other retailer, then you can choose AT&T as the carrier and the eSim will not lock. You can switch from AT&T to any other eSim supported carrier. In the states that is AT&T, Sprint, T-Mobile, and some small pay as you go carriers.

Further, why would anyone buy a iPad from a carrier unless they got a really good deal on it? Just buy like you would a computer.

Ok but that used to be the case, I didn’t realize anything was different lately. With the 9.7” Pro you could buy an unlocked one, put it on AT&T and they would lock it.

 

[JustinRP37]

Ok but that used to be the case, I didn’t realize anything was different lately. With the 9.7” Pro you could buy an unlocked one, put it on AT&T and they would lock it.

That was only with the physical Apple SIM card (could still be activated on multiple carriers) from the Air2. It was still ridiculous that AT&T would do that. With the iPad Pro 9.7 and embedded SIM there was that rumor, but it never happened unless you added it to a postpaid account (which even that I think they had to stop locking). I bought mine pretty close to launch day and had AT&T on it right away then switched to T-Mobile with no problem.

 

[Abazigal]

Reposting a response I read in another forum.

Carriers hate eSIMs. This has been going on for years (it was a big deal when I worked for Orange Devices Group in 2009-2011.

Why?

Because carriers sell SIM cards .. that’s their only physical connection to their customers.

Apple says they want to use eSIMs to save space in the handsets (clearly a valid concern).

Carriers are worried about something else.

Lets just suppose that Apple made it super-easy to switch carriers due to using eSIMs.

Maybe more customers would buy their devices directly from Apple - using an Apple payment plan (instead of a Carrier payment plan that locks you in for 12-24 months). (Note: this is already possible).

Maybe Apple makes it super-easy to switch carriers by becoming an MVNO themselves .. instead of buying a contract from a carrier you buy it directly from Apple. And then Apple buys minutes & coverage from the carrier and resells it to the end-customer.

The carriers then lose all contact with the end customers.

Maybe Apple is big and strong enough to make a super simple super cheap payment plan for their customers because they can afford to bully carriers into offering super-cheap MVNO deals (or else they miss out completely).

Maybe Apple even makes iPhone switch carriers all the time via eSIM control (without the user knowing or caring). They buy special bulk deals in all countries on an open exchange and switch customers to whatever carrier will offer the best deal at any time of the day or week.

Note: Apple already has a patent to do exactly this.

Now Apple has an end-to-end direct relationship with their customers .. and carriers are left to compete for Android customers and to offer low-margin bulk MVNO deals to Apple for iPhone customers.

Apple rips all the profit away from the carriers and makes it difficult to differentiate with their competitors (unless they are offering bulk 3 or 4-play deals with fixed, mobile 6 tv).

This is why Carriers hate eSIMs.

 

[Ronlap]

While I do NOT agree with locking an eSIM, I do want to be able to carry a pocket'o'SIMs that I can swap at will when I travel from country to country. I would be worried that with an eSIM, I could not swap in a Singapore SIM on Monday and put my AT&T SIM back in on Friday when I get home.

 

[til1p]

Finally! This is long overdue.

 

[AdonisSMU]

The sooner these companies accept the fact that they are nothing more than a dumb pipe and a means to an end, the better for everyone. I still find it absolutely ridiculous that I can't pre-order a new iPhone each year (paid in full) without being forced to prove an existing wireless account with the big 4.

That's Apple's fault.

 

[dewski]

I don't really understand this. I have always preferred GSM so that I can switch carriers by just popping out the sim card. In the past, I never went with Verizon because you had to go into the store if you got a new phone to get the number programmed. Have things changed? GSM seems way more convenient.

 

[AdonisSMU]

I like the idea of e-sim. You can change the carrier of your device without the hassle of trying to manually manage sims. I think ATT/Verizon is wrong for vendor lock in when device is purchased outright.

 

[bigboyz12000]

The United States Department of Justice today launched an antitrust investigation to determine whether U.S. carriers, including Verizon and AT&T, have coordinated to prevent consumers from easily switching wireless carriers, reports The New York Times.

AT&T, Verizon, and GSMA, an industry group that sets mobile standards, were asked in February for documents related to their efforts to hinder the implementation of eSIMs. An embedded SIM, or eSIM, is a standardized chip that's designed to replace a physical SIM card.

A physical SIM card slot in an iPhone, via iFixit​

With eSIM technology, there is no need to swap out SIM cards when switching carriers, making it easier to make a switch from one carrier to another. eSIMs are designed to be compatible with all major carriers, regardless of network type.

eSIMs are a major change from physical SIM cards, which require customers who wish to switch carriers to obtain a new SIM card when changing providers. eSIMs make it simpler for customers to swap carriers while traveling, and, of interest to device makers, they free up space currently taken up by a SIM card.

AT&T and Verizon are accused of colluding with the GSMA to create standards that would allow devices with eSIM technology to be locked to their networks. Representatives from the two carriers attended a meeting for a private task force called GSMA North America earlier this year and advocated for the ability to keep eSIM devices tied to a single carrier.

Verizon reportedly claimed that phones needed to be locked to its network in order to prevent theft and fraud.
The Department of Justice launched began the probe several months ago following formal complaints from at least one device maker and one wireless carrier. The investigation may include other carriers beyond Verizon and AT&T.

AT&T, Verizon, and other U.S. carriers have long resisted features that would make it easier for customers to switch carriers at will without being tied to a specific network. Verizon, for example, refused to allow Apple to offer Verizon service through the Apple SIM built into newer iPads. The Apple SIM, a multi-carrier SIM card, is designed to make it easier for customers to choose a carrier after an iPad purchase and switch to a new carrier when traveling.

Apple, Google, Microsoft, and other wireless carriers in the United States are proponents of the eSIM. Apple, for example, is said to want to use eSIM technology in its 2018 iPhones, but may instead opt for dual-SIM technology because "some carriers are resistant to the idea."

Apple has already implemented eSIM technology in the Apple Watch Series 3 models equipped with LTE connectivity. The eSIM is also a feature of the Google Pixel 2 smartphone and the Microsoft Surface.

Update: According to CNBC, all four major U.S. carriers received requests from the U.S. Justice Department.

Update 2: Apple is one of the companies that submitted a complaint to the Department of Justice, according to Bloomberg.

Article Link: U.S. Department of Justice Investigating Claims AT&T, Verizon and GSMA Colluded to Prevent Customers From Easily Switching Carriers [Updated]

I remember the term "world phone" being used back in the day. That meant it could be used anywhere in the world via GSM. I have been buying "unlocked" iPhones every since. Why has the USA not caught on to the "world phone" offerings of every other country as of yet? Oh wait! That means they LOCK you into a contract if you don't buy an unlocked phone..now i get it :]

 

[JustinRP37]

I don't really understand this. I have always preferred GSM so that I can switch carriers by just popping out the sim card. In the past, I never went with Verizon because you had to go into the store if you got a new phone to get the number programmed. Have things changed? GSM seems way more convenient.

Yes things have changed, especially with LTE. Verizon is no longer just a CDMA voice carrier. Their voLTE is great. You can also use SIM cards for authentication.