Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Wow, never knew we had so many US Constitution law professors on MacRumors! Having been through law classes I can tell you that a lot of people make their cases based on what they see on TV and movies. If you go to some basic US law classes you'll find things aren't so cut and dried.

The senators are within their right to use their influence to try to make change. No different than any other situation where people use their connections, titles, friends, etc. to effect change in any other situation.

And if those same senators asked newspapers not to print legally-required public notices about DUI checkpoints, would that be any different?

What if they publicly requested that these corporations dismiss any employees on a list of suspected communists? Sure we all hate drunk drivers, but there was a time when we all hated and feared communists. Surely communist subversion would lead to the deaths of countless Americans -- few would have argued that in the 1940's and 1950's.

It is good to question these things. The best thing the senators could do here is propose a constitutional amendment that would outline how DUI checkpoints are to be conducted and how they are to be publicized.

Personally, I think that Apple should do what is best for Apple and what they feel is right, but I don't think Senators should be taking this action when they lack the courage to first try to legislate change. These guys are acting like cowards rather than visionaries trying to affect a lasting change. I lost some respect for these senators today.
 
I think it is a big deal.

Either we have freedom or not!

I don't think the gay app should have been removed either and nobody has any business to tell Apple what to do.

Apple has already decided that apps have to follow certain rules. (Albeit (their rules)

The government needs to find another way to enforce its DUI laws.

Clearly all communities have the expected fines they level from traffic stops built into their budgets and many times towards the end of a budget cycle they increase revenues by putting up more stops, patrols etc.

They already use these stops to find anything "ticketible". as some other posters wrote.

The government should concentrate on the real problems, They pick side battles that look good in the press.

Gays in the military, abortion who cares? Let everybody live their life in peace the way they decide to live it!

Do you really think that DWI arrests and the amount of citations issued have gone down since the release of this app??? This has nothing to do with money. I'm also not sure what this has to do with gays in the military or living life in peace, but that’s an entirely different argument.

Again I am all for the app, I'm all for the 1st, and 4th amendment. I'm simply saying that some of you are over reacting.
 
The issue here is not drunk driving or promoting drunk driving. I don't think any reasonable human would promote someone getting behind the wheel even a little buzzed.

The issue here is the government trying to start controlling what information we have access to and the Apps available to us. What seems to happen (at least here in the US) is once one thing is regulated, it leads to more. Do we really want the government or special interest groups controlling what we have access to or what Apps are allowed or not allowed? This is not what America is all about.

Let the government have it's say here and we'll be sorry. All it will take is some terrorist group using something silly like Google Maps to pull off an attack and then congress will be calling for a shut down of Google Maps (as an example). Let them have an inch and they will take a mile, all under the umbrella of our "best interest".

This App is not going to promote or stop some idiot from driving drunk. Jerks that do that, will do it if they have the App or not.

I partially agree:) First of all, the information on DUI checkpoints isnt classified for goodness' sake...so from that perspective the application is doing nothing more than displaying information from other sources. Big whup.
However, Apple has taken a stand against certain application content before (pornography)...not because it is illegal or because Senator Reid asked them to; because its not something that apple wants to be connected to (and I respect them for that very much). So yes, I DONT WANT APPLE SUCCUMBING to every little complaint about app content...I DO WANT them to be conscious about what may be inappropriate to it's users. This whole DUI app issue certainly falls under that category for many folks, including myself.
 
Bzzt, wrong!

Companies are free to self-censor. They can do that based on public-opinion, or on the opinion of management. The only time that they CANNOT do so is if it's in direct violation of laws that protect certain protected classes of persons (race is a good example). For example, admitting apps by white programmers and not from "developers of color".

The public crying for Apple or anyone to remove an app is NOT CENSORSHIP.

How anyone doesn't get this is beyond me.

Freedom of Speech is a protection from the government. Citizens and Corporations can't violate the constitutional amendment because it is a law that defines what the state cannot do, not what companies and people can choose to do or not do.

Equating the government infringing on speech (which applications fall under) with companies infringing on speech is a complete misunderstanding of the basic rights of this country.

You, sir/madame get a gold star AND a cookie for this. I guess there are 4 of us in the world who understand Amendment I.
 
You have just proven my point that you don't grasp it at all. There is no need for it to be passed into (a likely unconstitutional) law b/c what the Sens are doing is attempting to bully the companies to self-censor. That is the key point here. They don't have to pass a law to censor the speech. But the effect is the same, the speech is stopped. And the next time the Sens see speech they don't like they'll do it again, and again. It's the old slippery slope, just on a different road.

No what you don't seem to grasp is the difference between understanding someones opinion and agreeing with it. Asking someone to do something and requiring them to do it by law are two totally different things. For example under the 4th amendment Police Officers are allowed to ask someone for consent to search their person, vehicle, or home. There is no law that requires someone to grant that Officer consent, but an Officer is still allowed to ask. Under your opinion an Officer should not be allowed to ask someone for consent to search because its a form of "bullying"!? How is this any different?
 
Well apparently we have at least one. :rolleyes:

Nope, never claimed to be nor did I exercise "opinions" that are couched in terms of how US Constitutional laws worked. I know only enough to know that most people get it wrong.
 
And if those same senators asked newspapers not to print legally-required public notices about DUI checkpoints, would that be any different?.
Nope. A request is not the same as a demand. The newspaper has every right to say they won't comply with the request. Same as Apple.
 
Again I am all for the app, I'm all for the 1st, and 4th amendment. I'm simply saying that some of you are over reacting.

High ranking members of the U.S. Sen. "ask" companies to remove apps from their catalogs that they otherwise have every right to publish. One company, Blackberry, agrees, and removes that social app. If concern is not the proper reaction what is? A simple Meh? And then wait until they start asking companies to remove other apps the gov't doesn't like? Do we say "meh" then to?

Previously, it's been Apple removing apps from its app store. I don't have an issue with that because its Apple store. That is private action. But in this case it's the government requesting removal and I find that just as inappropriate as if they asked a book store to remove a book on any given controversial subject.

No what you don't seem to grasp is the difference between understanding someones opinion and agreeing with it. Asking someone to do something and requiring them to do it by law are two totally different things. For example under the 4th amendment Police Officers are allowed to ask someone for consent to search their person, vehicle, or home. There is no law that requires someone to grant that Officer consent, but an Officer is still allowed to ask. Under your opinion an Officer should not be allowed to ask someone for consent to search because its a form of "bullying"!? How is this any different?

1) Don't switch the subject. My posts never mention anything having to do w/ the 4th amendment. Also what you are talking about has gone through the court system. I'm not talking about anything the S.Ct. has ruled on.

2) There is "asking" and then their is "asking." For example, when Al Capone asked a store owner for a favor he complied. But he asked! And nicely too. Now I'm not making a direct comparison here but when high ranking U.S. Senators ask, the company being asked understands those Senators can make life hard on the company in other ways if they don't comply. It's subtle but it happens. You seem to have a polly anna view of things. Blackberry has already complied. Apple may or may not depend on how much muscle it feels it has.
 
Last edited:
The American constitutional fetish does seem very strange to me as a non American. Americans (or a significant subset there of) seem to think each and every right is distinct and absolute and ignore how they interact. People are way too boxed in by the existing constitution and unwilling to consider the possibility it should be changed. That is why every argument about gun regulation hangs on parsing the second amendment instead of an open discussion of what would be best for the people/country. It is almost like the constitution is some sort of unchanging secular bible instead of a living document crafted by and for the people.

Anyhow,different countries are different. To each his own.

The document should be considered 'living' only in that it allows for it to be amended through a specific process. The Constitution was designed to put our government in a 'box', thereby leaving the citizens free to have any rights/powers not expressly forbidden in the document. Yes, there are instances where the existence of certain rights can inconvenience (or even endanger) citizens, but we believe that those are the acceptable consequences of a free society. Think of it as a backstop to help keep government from aggrandizing itself with powers it should not have (unless an amendment is passed to provide that power.)

A good example would be due process, whereby everyone gets a jury trial, even in the most obvious cases where we 'know' the suspect committed the act. The writers of the Constitution recognized that, without this due process, it would not be long before the the government would be charging citizens with bogus crimes because it 'knew' they were guilty. This also means we may have some folks who are guilty that get off because they were not accorded their rights. That sucks, but it still beats the alternative.

To better understand this 'fetish', I'd recommend reading the document in its entirety, as well as the Declaration of Independence, and some of the Federalist Papers. And, while not perfect, it established one of the longest continuously running representative forms of government in human history. Not too shabby.

With respect to this App, I rarely drink myself (maybe 2-3 times a year), but this 'request' isn't too far from telling me I can't call a friend and saying (or using Twitter to say), 'Hey, there's a checkpoint on XYZ street. Be careful.' That is not something our government should be able to stop. Sadly, my guess is that Apple will cave, especially now that the DoD is working to integrate iOS tech into the military. The Senators could come back and threaten to 'alter' those arrangements if Apple doesn't 'comply.' A sad state of affairs indeed.

Peace be with you.
 
As a 14 year former prosecutor who worked with hundreds of cops, they told me "task forces" where they patrol in increased numbers with the specific purpose of catching drunk drivers work better than checkpoints. It is less predictable for the drunk and you benefit from the cop's years of experience of knowing where the drunks drive. Near a collection of bars is a good starting point.

That reminds me of one "trick" I saw used by the police. It was at a pub on a busy 4-lane highway (not freeway). Some parked illegally on the shoulder instead of in the parking lot. The state police went in and warned those drivers that they were parked illegally and faced a ticket and possible towing. When the drivers went out and started their engines to move the cars, they got stopped for possible DUI/DWI and they faced mandatory tests. Actually, as I understand Maryland law, you CAN decline the test in the sense that you won't be charged with another crime, but if you do decline it, your license is immediately suspended.
 
The American constitutional fetish does seem very strange to me as a non American. Americans (or a significant subset there of) seem to think each and every right is distinct and absolute and ignore how they interact. People are way too boxed in by the existing constitution and unwilling to consider the possibility it should be changed. That is why every argument about gun regulation hangs on parsing the second amendment instead of an open discussion of what would be best for the people/country. It is almost like the constitution is some sort of unchanging secular bible instead of a living document crafted by and for the people.

Anyhow,different countries are different. To each his own.

You have to understand the intent of the Founding Fathers. The US Constitution is very different than most if not all other governments. This document DEFINES the federal government and its purposely limited powers. Any power not specifically granted to the federal government by the Constitution is given to the individual states so long as state laws/assumed powers don't violate the Constitution itself.

The US Constitution can be changed, but ONLY through an amendment. So, it is changing, but only via established rules. It wasn't meant to be changed simply by saying "we want it to mean this instead of that."
 
Wow, 19 pages of discussion? This constitutionality talk is pretty laughable, considering Apple's self censorship policies in the past. I'm betting everyone arguing for keeping this app would feel differently if you or your loved ones were victims of a DUI.
 
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8F190 Safari/6533.18.5)

Do they want truckers to get rid of their CB radios, too?
 
Nope. A request is not the same as a demand. The newspaper has every right to say they won't comply with the request. Same as Apple.

I don't think anyone with any knowledge of the law or with the ability to use Google is arguing what the Supreme Court already ruled on. This is why the Senators REQUESTED Apple to remove the Apps instead of trying to write it into law. Agencies are required to give notice, people can legally distribute that information however they wish. It's already on paper in black and white! I don't see why everyone is getting their panties in a bunch over this.

A request that is privately made is one thing. One that is done in public is completely different -- it is an attempt at bullying -- it is a trial in the court of public opinion. The question that Apple is asking themselves if they feel the "right" thing to do is to protect the constitutional rights of individuals is how this will play for them in the press. How will this hurt their earnings? So they either agree with the Senators or they disagree and they are now in a position where they have to make a stand and possibly hurt their revenue as the general public will think a stance may imply "Apple loves drunk drivers".

The same thing happened in the 1950's where companies distanced themselves from anyone suspected of being a communist sympathizer. Nobody forced them to fire those people, but they feared the ramifications of keeping any association with that person.

McCarthy was the senator who set the precedent for this sort of behavior. I would fully support a constitutional amendment that makes provisions for DUI checkpoints. I do not support these tactics by senators. A private request would be "just a request".
 
Wow, 19 pages of discussion? This constitutionality talk is pretty laughable, considering Apple's self censorship policies in the past. I'm betting everyone arguing for keeping this app would feel differently if you or your loved ones were victims of a DUI.

Actually no I wouldn't, Trapster is basically for Speeding, as I said before, people will drive drunk regardless of an app PERIOD. And speeding can kill also so what's up with just this DUI Victims and all. Texting, talking on the phone, smoking, reading, eating and all kinds of stuff can cause accidents while driving. You wanna shut down fast food as well cause people start dying in accidents from somebody eating a cheeseburger. it's life, things happen and best we can do is look out for ourselves to prevent it.
 
Downloaded! Thanks, I would never have found these apps without all the hub-bub.

I don't drink, but that doesn't mean a checkpoint wouldn't waste a ton of my time.
 
I seriously doubt that a drunk would be able able to operate the phone a little lone running the app, pinching to zoom, etc.
 
Nope. A request is not the same as a demand. The newspaper has every right to say they won't comply with the request. Same as Apple.

This is absolutely a true statement. For this reason alone, it would be interesting to see the consequences if Apple actually had the balls to reject their 'request.' The problem nowadays is that government is soooooo large and entangled in our lives that many corporations can cost themselves significant business standing up against that same government.

Peace be with you.
 
Oh god no I hope apple doesn't cave to this kind of Orwellian garbage. I feel for all of the victims of DUIs and know that I have personally called the police on a car that was very obviously had an impaired person behind the wheel but as a non drunk driver if I want to avoid being hassled I should be able to.

You (and I) also have a right not to be t-boned by some drunk in an intersection (which almost happened to me once--luckily, I saw him coming in time). Hence the checkpoints.

Really, how often do you get stopped at a DUI checkpoint? It's happened to me about twice in my life. Not a huge price to pay for safer roads.

I would be in favor of Apple removing these apps that promote unsafe driving. However, I admit that I am uncomfortable with the Senate getting involved. Having a government step in to restrict private content is troublesome, I would agree.
 
I think they should be pulled. Drunk driving needs to be stopped.

Yes, drunk driving needs to be stopped.

But, not by removing apps from app stores.

They should make the laws have teeth by punishing drunk drivers into submission:

5 years jail time, $ 15,000 fine for the first offense.
Drivers license revoked for 5 years, attend alcohol anonymous classes for 2 years, community work for 3 years.

Pile it on and ruin their lives.
They are out there ruining other peoples lives by driving drunk.

Sounds extreme, right, but to pull an app would help people from stopping to drive drunk?

This is starting at the wrong point.

And to publicly ask Apple IS bullying by these senators.

Par for the course though in USA, when anytime something bad happens (drunk driving) people look for who they can blame, instead of taking responsibility for their own actions.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.