Uh-oh do I want to dip my toes in this black hole?

[pullman]

I recently fixed up an old cMP1,1, built in 2007 in Cork, Ireland according to the serial number. It is running beautifully, silently and cooly as media server in our home.

The project whetted my appetite for something else and now I'm thinking of a PowerBook. But I'm a bit stumped for which model to go for - specifically would you pick a 15" or a 17"?

This is probably a stupid question but I thought I should ask it anyway.

Cheers and thanks in advance for your views
Philip

 

[eyoungren]

I'm a fan of the 17" PowerBooks (I have a thread for 17" PB owners), particularly the first one the A1013. The 15" PBs are good too, but the 17 is my preference.

Do you want a larger screen? Or does weight concern you? Only you can make that choice.

In any case, the last of the 15 and 17s were high-res models with dual layer superdrives so, unless you're looking for a specific model those versions would be your best performance bet.

 

[Amethyst1]

But I'm a bit stumped for which model to go for - specifically would you pick a 15" or a 17"?

17" all the way - not so much for the larger screen, but for the higher resolution. I'll say that I'm a sucker for high-res screens though so maybe I'm biased

 

[Hughmac]

I have the lower resolution (1280 x 854) 15" PowerBook as my poor old eyes were have trouble with hi res

Cheers

Hugh

 

[2984839]

Jump in, the water’s great! Just be prepared to start buying a lot of computers as you decide you need to try all of them.

I like the 15” PowerBooks the best.

 

[retta283]

Both are great, I'd say it depends on if you want the larger, wider screen of the 17". You'll definitely have more fun gaming on the 17" if you play in widescreen. 15" is 15.2" at 3:2 aspect, 17" is at 16:10. Also, the speakers are miles better on the 17". Very good for laptop speakers.

 

[AshleyPomeroy]

Another point in the 17" model's favour is that, perhaps because there's simply more free space inside the case, it tends to run cooler than the other models. It's also relatively simple to work on because the interior is easy to access.

On a personal level I've always felt that the 12" model was the best-looking aluminium G4. It looks cute. But from what I've read it runs hot, and replacing the hard drive is tricky:

PowerBook G4 Aluminum 12" 1-1.5 GHz Hard Drive Replacement

.

www.ifixit.com

For a couple of years after the Intel transition / before the MacBook Air the 12" PowerBook was the closest thing to an Apple netbook. If you plot a graph with "size" on one axis and "quality of keyboard" on the other it's still in the good part of the graph. Sadly as of 2020 the batteries are hard to come by and even when it was new it only ran for four hours or so.

The 17" model has presence, and the high-res 1.67ghz model is the ultimate evolution of the PowerBook range. But on the other, other hand a lot of the things it was designed to do would be torture nowadays, or wouldn't make sense. Apple's press release specifically mentions Photoshop and digital video (presumably sub-HD):

Apple Unveils World’s First 17-inch Notebook

www.apple.com

...and Steve Jobs touts it as a desktop replacement, in which case the steep price was more tolerable. Nowadays I use mine as a giant iPod, which feels wrong.

 

[pullman]

Thank you so much for the quick and very encouraging replies

Hmm screen size and resolution, well I have an oldish 2013 MBPr which I use at the default resolution, 1280x800. I realise retina is a different technology and that apps react differently sometimes, so it's possibly a poor comparison.

Two decades+ back I used a Dell Inspiron 8000 which had a pretty high-res screen (1600x something) and I did like that. Then again I and my eyes were two decades+ younger, too...

So I honestly don't know what I would prefer today. I did see on Everymac that there's also a high-res version of the 15", but that might be a bit much for my eyes. How does that screen compare to the same-res 17" screen, and can those two be scaled down without text looking horrible?

Tricky tricky. Actually when I put my MacBook at 1400x900 as I type this my eyes hurt a bit, so perhaps that's the answer.

As for weight I don't mind really. I'm only thinking that a 17" might be a bit large to bring along and this would definitely be a computer I'd like to bring with me to use (and not only to see people shake their heads in disbelief haha).

I was also toying with the idea of going for the 12" due to portability, but perhaps that is too small. Thank you @AshleyPomeroy for pointing out the possible issues with the 12" which makes me wonder if I want to go that way.

See, I haven't managed to get anywhere with all this rambling!

I'm a fan of the 17" PowerBooks (I have a thread for 17" PB owners), particularly the first one the A1013. The 15" PBs are good too, but the 17 is my preference.

Do you want a larger screen? Or does weight concern you? Only you can make that choice.

In any case, the last of the 15 and 17s were high-res models with dual layer superdrives so, unless you're looking for a specific model those versions would be your best performance bet.

17" all the way - not so much for the larger screen, but for the higher resolution. I'll say that I'm a sucker for high-res screens though so maybe I'm biased

I have the lower resolution (1280 x 854) 15" PowerBook as my poor old eyes were have trouble with hi res

Cheers

Hugh

Jump in, the water’s great! Just be prepared to start buying a lot of computers as you decide you need to try all of them.

I like the 15” PowerBooks the best.

Both are great, I'd say it depends on if you want the larger, wider screen of the 17". You'll definitely have more fun gaming on the 17" if you play in widescreen. 15" is 15.2" at 3:2 aspect, 17" is at 16:10. Also, the speakers are miles better on the 17". Very good for laptop speakers.

Another point in the 17" model's favour is that, perhaps because there's simply more free space inside the case, it tends to run cooler than the other models. It's also relatively simple to work on because the interior is easy to access.

On a personal level I've always felt that the 12" model was the best-looking aluminium G4. It looks cute. But from what I've read it runs hot, and replacing the hard drive is tricky:

PowerBook G4 Aluminum 12" 1-1.5 GHz Hard Drive Replacement

.

www.ifixit.com

For a couple of years after the Intel transition / before the MacBook Air the 12" PowerBook was the closest thing to an Apple netbook. If you plot a graph with "size" on one axis and "quality of keyboard" on the other it's still in the good part of the graph. Sadly as of 2020 the batteries are hard to come by and even when it was new it only ran for four hours or so.

The 17" model has presence, and the high-res 1.67ghz model is the ultimate evolution of the PowerBook range. But on the other, other hand a lot of the things it was designed to do would be torture nowadays, or wouldn't make sense. Apple's press release specifically mentions Photoshop and digital video (presumably sub-HD):

Apple Unveils World’s First 17-inch Notebook

www.apple.com

...and Steve Jobs touts it as a desktop replacement, in which case the steep price was more tolerable. Nowadays I use mine as a giant iPod, which feels wrong.

 

[dbdjre0143]

If you want it to be portable, I'd strongly recommend the 15". I've had both, and I really did like the size of the 17", but purchasing a battery for it was prohibitively expensive (as in, significantly more than I paid for the computer at the time). On the other hand, I was able to get a brand new aftermarket battery for my 15" on Amazon for around $20, and well over a year later, it still gives a couple hours of usage on a charge.

 

[pullman]

Thank you for putting this in perspective for me. I didn't realise batteries are difficult to find for the 17". That does speak in favour of the 15", or the 12".

Speaking of upgrades - what about SSDs for these PowerBooks, would that be a worthwhile thing to invest in or just plain stupid? I mean, SSDs run quite hot; I was quite surprised how hot the two Crucial drives I put in the cMP1,1 became after a while, but that computer is of course equipped with very large fans and so doesn't run hot.

I've read here that there are IDE SSDs and an mSATA adapter solutions, and it seems from my quick browsing both work, but is one better? And do the 15" and 17" run cooler with SSDs than the 12"?

If you want it to be portable, I'd strongly recommend the 15". I've had both, and I really did like the size of the 17", but purchasing a battery for it was prohibitively expensive (as in, significantly more than I paid for the computer at the time). On the other hand, I was able to get a brand new aftermarket battery for my 15" on Amazon for around $20, and well over a year later, it still gives a couple hours of usage on a charge.

 

[Amethyst1]

Hmm screen size and resolution, well I have an oldish 2013 MBPr which I use at the default resolution, 1280x800. I realise retina is a different technology and that apps react differently sometimes, so it's possibly a poor comparison.

[...]

So I honestly don't know what I would prefer today. I did see on Everymac that there's also a high-res version of the 15", but that might be a bit much for my eyes. How does that screen compare to the same-res 17" screen, and can those two be scaled down without text looking horrible?

Good that you mention that. The 13.3" MBPr at default 1280×800 results in a pixel density of 113 ppi. The non-hires 15.2" PB (1280×854) has 101 ppi, the non-hires 17" PB (1440×900) has 100 ppi. So, on these two, things will appear larger than they do on the MBPr. The hires 15.2" (1440×960) has 113 ppi which would make things the exact same size as on the MBPr. The hires 17" (1680×1050) would make things slightly smaller at 116 ppi.

I would never run an LCD at a lower than native resolution. It will look horrible. But if you can deal with 113 ppi, the PB's screens won't pose much of a problem.

 

[eyoungren]

Thank you for putting this in perspective for me. I didn't realise batteries are difficult to find for the 17". That does speak in favour of the 15", or the 12".

Speaking of upgrades - what about SSDs for these PowerBooks, would that be a worthwhile thing to invest in or just plain stupid? I mean, SSDs run quite hot; I was quite surprised how hot the two Crucial drives I put in the cMP1,1 became after a while, but that computer is of course equipped with very large fans and so doesn't run hot.

I've read here that there are IDE SSDs and an mSATA adapter solutions, and it seems from my quick browsing both work, but is one better? And do the 15" and 17" run cooler with SSDs than the 12"?

In the same way that I am a fan of the 17", I am not a fan of the 12". Yes, the 12" is portable, but if you are going to use it on your lap you got to keep your legs together and your hands cramped in. There's no place to rest the palms of your hands either.

On top of that, there is no keyboard backlight (the keys illuminate on the 15 and 17" PBs) and the 12" requires a special adapter if you want to attach a second display. Those are similar to Mini-DVI, but aren't that and are extremely hard to find. Lastly, working inside the 12" is a real PITA.

But some people like them.

I use a mSATA3 SSD (Zheino) on my 17" PowerBook. That's with an adapter and it works just fine. You're limited to the bus speed, but it does improve performance. There is no TRIM support - you have to rely on the internal garbage collection. Just keep enough space free and you won't have issues. Yes, there's heat, but I've found that rather than the Mac heating up with my old HD and then fans kicking in, the SSD comes up right to the temp threshold for when the fans are supposed to activate. That means unless I'm really pushing the Mac, the fans don't come on.

IDE SSDs are more expensive and difficult to find. I'd go with an mSATA because you can get larger amounts of storage, but again, your call.

 

[2984839]

In the same way that I am a fan of the 17", I am not a fan of the 12". Yes, the 12" is portable, but if you are going to use it on your lap you got to keep your legs together and your hands cramped in. There's no place to rest the palms of your hands either.

On top of that, there is no keyboard backlight (the keys illuminate on the 15 and 17" PBs) and the 12" requires a special adapter if you want to attach a second display. Those are similar to Mini-DVI, but aren't that and are extremely hard to find. Lastly, working inside the 12" is a real PITA.

But some people like them.

I use a mSATA3 SSD (Zheino) on my 17" PowerBook. That's with an adapter and it works just fine. You're limited to the bus speed, but it does improve performance. There is no TRIM support - you have to rely on the internal garbage collection. Just keep enough space free and you won't have issues. Yes, there's heat, but I've found that rather than the Mac heating up with my old HD and then fans kicking in, the SSD comes up right to the temp threshold for when the fans are supposed to activate. That means unless I'm really pushing the Mac, the fans don't come on.

IDE SSDs are more expensive and difficult to find. I'd go with an mSATA because you can get larger amounts of storage, but again, your call.

Only nice thing about the 12" is the keyboard has a much better tactile feeling than the 15" and 17", in my experience. Don't know hwy that is, or maybe I just had bad luck with the bigger ones, but the 15" DLSD I had was very mushy and unpleasant.

 

[iluvmacs99]

I had rebuilt all 12", 15" and 17" Powerbooks and my favourite is the 15" DSLD which I own and use quite a bit because it's got a really nice keyboard. I use it to also read conference materials in PDF as the screen is superb for that. The 15" hi-res screen is quite nice (did I say it twice?!? LOL); prefer it more than the regular 15" screen that was on my other Powerbook G4 15" which died. The 12" screen is a bit small and tight and lacking the horsepower needed for today's internet and media needs. You can still get the battery for it and it's cheap. You can replace the battery on the fly without taking the case apart like the newer Macbooks. You can buy a few spares.

I have a 17" Macbook Pro also and I love the screen size. I gave it to my dad for browsing the net. That thing is just too heavy to lug around. I prefer the 15" instead, just the perfect compromise, and sometimes if I got to the library, I would also carry a small netbook for modern browsing secure sites and mobile Zoom conferencing and the 15" Powerbook just for writing and reading and watching the occasional DVDs the library has to offer thanks to the dual layer DVD built-in.

 

[eyoungren]

Only nice thing about the 12" is the keyboard has a much better tactile feeling than the 15" and 17", in my experience. Don't know hwy that is, or maybe I just had bad luck with the bigger ones, but the 15" DLSD I had was very mushy and unpleasant.

Well, that's where it comes down to preferences. I prefer the 17" keyboard. If the 12" wasn't so cramped I might agree with you but it's really hard to use that keyboard with the limited space. Maybe it works better on a table or desk, but if I go that far with the 12", I'm using plugging in an external keyboard and mouse.

 

[Amethyst1]

the 12" requires a special adapter if you want to attach a second display. Those are similar to Mini-DVI, but aren't that and are extremely hard to find.

The 1.0/1.33/1.5 GHz versions of the 12" do have a Mini-DVI output, just like the 2009 Mac mini and the non-unibody polycarbonate MacBooks. The 867 MHz 12" has a Mini-VGA output, just like the white iBooks.

Another two downsides of the 12" in addition to these already mentioned - it tops out at 1.25 GB RAM max and has a very weak (read: crappy) GPU.

 

[pullman]

Thanks very much everyone for continuing the conversation about this!

Thanks for the info on pixel density @Amethyst1. The 15" high-res model (a1138 if I'm not mistaken) would seem to be the one to best match what I see on my MBPr. I actually happen to have spied one of those for reasonable money locally so I'm seriously thinking of pulling the trigger. It's only got 1GB RAM but that couldn't be difficult to upgrade.

The hires 15.2" (1440×960) has 113 ppi which would make things the exact same size as on the MBPr.

Great that you point out the keyboard backlight @eyoungren, thank you. I had wondered about this. It sounds a bit silly to say, but this little feature is probably my favourite thing about my MBPr because it makes it so very useful in darker surroundings. Yet another strike against the 12", then.

Thank you also for the info on SSD options, TRIM etc. In the meantime I've read threads about the best mSATA adapter to keep temps down so that will be interesting to look for.

To be honest I might just stick a 7200rpm HDD in it. Everymac reports the interface to be "Ultra ATA/100" – is this the same as PATA-100?

On top of that, there is no keyboard backlight (the keys illuminate on the 15 and 17" PBs)

I use a mSATA3 SSD (Zheino) on my 17" PowerBook. That's with an adapter and it works just fine. You're limited to the bus speed, but it does improve performance. There is no TRIM support - you have to rely on the internal garbage collection. Just keep enough space free and you won't have issues. Yes, there's heat, but I've found that rather than the Mac heating up with my old HD and then fans kicking in, the SSD comes up right to the temp threshold for when the fans are supposed to activate. That means unless I'm really pushing the Mac, the fans don't come on.

IDE SSDs are more expensive and difficult to find. I'd go with an mSATA because you can get larger amounts of storage, but again, your call.

About differences in the keyboards – are the differences as big as between some of the current designs? I'm thinking of the horribly shallow keys on the butterfly keyboard and the wonderful keys on, well, pretty much any other current MacBook, or is it a less distinct difference? I realise this is a personal preference too so it may be difficult to compare.

Only nice thing about the 12" is the keyboard has a much better tactile feeling than the 15" and 17", in my experience. Don't know hwy that is, or maybe I just had bad luck with the bigger ones, but the 15" DLSD I had was very mushy and unpleasant.

I had rebuilt all 12", 15" and 17" Powerbooks and my favourite is the 15" DSLD which I own and use quite a bit because it's got a really nice keyboard.

 

[LordeOurMother]

Regarding portability, I had a 12 inch PowerBook for quite a long time which I enjoyed. I then got the 15 inch and if you pack it in your bag, prepare for it to be the only thing you pack in your bag. The 15 + books + accessories really adds up quick. If you plan to just use one at home, 15 or 17 is probably better due to thermals. I've had logic board issues with 1.67 GHz revision of the 15 inch, and it died on me in an airport about a year ago. Conversely, my 12 inch 1 Ghz always ran perfectly fine.

 

[pullman]

Oh another thing I wanted to ask about, operating system. Which would you recommend?

I began using Apple in 2008 when Leopard ruled the Macs so I don't know much about previous versions. I'm thinking specifically about performance, battery life and online security – is any OS version prefer?

Regarding portability, I had a 12 inch PowerBook for quite a long time which I enjoyed. I then got the 15 inch and if you pack it in your bag, prepare for it to be the only thing you pack in your bag. The 15 + books + accessories really adds up quick. If you plan to just use one at home, 15 or 17 is probably better due to thermals. I've had logic board issues with 1.67 GHz revision of the 15 inch, and it died on me in an airport about a year ago. Conversely, my 12 inch 1 Ghz always ran perfectly fine.

Thank you for chiming in, this is helpful to know. I guess it all depends on the size of one's bag and willingness to carry. It seems the 15" is basically 1cm thicker, 3,5cm wider and 2cm deeper, which is not a huge difference. I know there's more to portability than sheer size though.

 

[eyoungren]

The 1.0/1.33/1.5 GHz versions of the 12" do have a Mini-DVI output, just like the 2009 Mac mini and the non-unibody polycarbonate MacBooks. The 867 MHz 12" has a Mini-VGA output, just like the white iBooks.

Another two downsides of the 12" in addition to these already mentioned - it tops out at 1.25 GB RAM max and has a very weak (read: crappy) GPU.

I will have to take a look at which 12" I have. The adapter I have for it seemed different, but I don't recall what speed it it.

 

[eyoungren]

Regarding portability, I had a 12 inch PowerBook for quite a long time which I enjoyed. I then got the 15 inch and if you pack it in your bag, prepare for it to be the only thing you pack in your bag. The 15 + books + accessories really adds up quick. If you plan to just use one at home,

There was a time where I was hauling around two 17" PowerBooks in one bag. I have one of those canvas service bags that were issues to cable company or cell tower company techs. It was never intended for hauling laptops but it's got two large pocket with dividers in the rear pocket. Ttwo 17" PBs will fit in that rear pocket. All the other stuff went in the front pockets. It's got a shoulder strap so, fairly easy to haul around.

I have pictures of both Macs laid out on the table at Starbucks.

 

[eyoungren]

Oh another thing I wanted to ask about, operating system. Which would you recommend?

I began using Apple in 2008 when Leopard ruled the Macs so I don't know much about previous versions. I'm thinking specifically about performance, battery life and online security – is any OS version prefer?

I'm in the Leopard camp, only because I prefer the most compatibility and latest OS as I can get. Leopard will never beat Tiger in speed, but there are threads here on MR to optimize it.

If you just want a light system with speed, then go with Tiger. Just keep in mind that Tiger's printserver and connectability and interaction with PCs and PC servers is pretty archaic.

 

[LordeOurMother]

There was a time where I was hauling around two 17" PowerBooks in one bag. I have one of those canvas service bags that were issues to cable company or cell tower company techs. It was never intended for hauling laptops but it's got two large pocket with dividers in the rear pocket. Ttwo 17" PBs will fit in that rear pocket. All the other stuff went in the front pockets. It's got a shoulder strap so, fairly easy to haul around.

I have pictures of both Macs laid out on the table at Starbucks.

Other people have a higher tolerance for back pain than I do.
[automerge]1599227880[/automerge]

I'm in the Leopard camp, only because I prefer the most compatibility and latest OS as I can get. Leopard will never beat Tiger in speed, but there are threads here on MR to optimize it.

If you just want a light system with speed, then go with Tiger. Just keep in mind that Tiger's printserver and connectability and interaction with PCs and PC servers is pretty archaic.

Leopard is probably the best, because there's a good backlog of decently modern apps you can run.

 

[djjeff]

Why limit yourself to just one? They're not that expensive so purchase one with a normal resolution screen, one with a high resolution screen, and maybe a smaller (15") / larger (17") than the other(s). Find which one works best for you and sell off the others.

 

[2984839]

Thanks very much everyone for continuing the conversation about this!

Thanks for the info on pixel density @Amethyst1. The 15" high-res model (a1138 if I'm not mistaken) would seem to be the one to best match what I see on my MBPr. I actually happen to have spied one of those for reasonable money locally so I'm seriously thinking of pulling the trigger. It's only got 1GB RAM but that couldn't be difficult to upgrade.



Great that you point out the keyboard backlight @eyoungren, thank you. I had wondered about this. It sounds a bit silly to say, but this little feature is probably my favourite thing about my MBPr because it makes it so very useful in darker surroundings. Yet another strike against the 12", then.

Thank you also for the info on SSD options, TRIM etc. In the meantime I've read threads about the best mSATA adapter to keep temps down so that will be interesting to look for.

To be honest I might just stick a 7200rpm HDD in it. Everymac reports the interface to be "Ultra ATA/100" – is this the same as PATA-100?



About differences in the keyboards – are the differences as big as between some of the current designs? I'm thinking of the horribly shallow keys on the butterfly keyboard and the wonderful keys on, well, pretty much any other current MacBook, or is it a less distinct difference? I realise this is a personal preference too so it may be difficult to compare.

The biggest change in keyboard for the more modern PPC laptops was between the titanium PowerBooks and the aluminum PowerBooks that replaced them. The titanium models had a black plastic keyboard that had nice deep travel and a good tactile feel. The aluminum PowerBooks had an aluminum colored keyboard that has less of a raised surface than the TiBooks' keys, and more of a click to it. I think the key travel is slightly less on the AluBook keyboards, but I'm not 100% sure.

They are both many, many times better than the butterfly garbage on my 2018 Air.