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EricNau said:
MADD....
the brain continues to develop throughout childhood and adolescence until approximately age 20
http://www.madd.org/stats/1744

i think the point many are making here, and to which i subscribe, is that learning to drink early and gradually supports the idea that it's such a big deal, educates to drink because it tastes good and it's social and not just to get pissed. that is plain dum.
in moderation alcohol is not a problem, as simple as that. and it's easy to be moderate if you learn that way and all your friends do the same.
an efficient solution (which I don't support because i'm cheap :)) could be to remove the drinking age but make alcohol very expensive
 
thoughts on the drinking age

Originally Posted by EricNau
MADD....
the brain continues to develop throughout childhood and adolescence until approximately age 20
http://www.madd.org/stats/1744

Consider your sources, as MADD is a taaaaaaad bit biased. I've read about recent studies in Scientific American, the results of which concluded that the amygdala, the section of the brain which is primarily responsible for making mature decisions, is not fully developed until age 25. Another source (http://www.mentorfoundation.org/pdfs/prevention_perspectives/19.pdf) estimates the number to be in the early 20s. Either way, 20 seems to be a rather conservative estimate.

In my honest opinion, I think that MADD either accepted the number 20 as fact because it fits their cause ("Hey, 20 is less than 21, woohoo it *MUST* be the right number" [don't even get me started on affirming the consequence as a logical fallacy]), or, to give them the benefit of the doubt, they simply didn't realize the outdated information they used is inaccurate, according to recent studies.

Assuming that MADD doesn't suddenly change its opinion and say the drinking age should be 25 now, what should we do with the current drinking age of 21? After all, our brains aren't "fully" developed, so that obviously implies we're ignorant and naive.

If you're allowed to be drafted (aka forced) to fight for your country at the age of 18--that is, if you're allowed to die for your country--why shouldn't you be allowed to drink alcohol? Is going into combat and fighting for your life require less "mature" decision than deciding that you've had enough to drink, or that you shouldn't drive home tonight and instead call a friend or a taxi?

The problem ISN'T age. Now that's not to say that minors should be drinking, but is an 18-year-old really that significantly less intelligent than a 21-year-old Who cares whether a drunk person is 18 or 21? The point is, being intoxicated creates both large and small problems, REGARDLESS OF AGE. The solution isn't emphasizing that all of the sudden, at some specific age, you're suddenly "mature" enough to drink, and that if you drink before that magical age, you should be punished with outlandish fines and penalties. The solution is being harsher on the true problems caused by drinking--that is, alcohol-related crimes, particularly including DUI. There are other ways to instill responsibility than targeting the underage. Teach smart parenting, if kids learn the consequences of abuse, along with important guidelines to safe drinking, they'll be less inclined to abuse alcohol when they are legally allowed to drink.

With that being said, surely most of you have gathered that I don't support the current drinking age, and you might be asking what my theory is to explain why the drinking age remains at 21.

First, if you lower the drinking age, there will inevitably uproar from various political stances, particularly conservatives. Raise the age, and there will be uproar from both conservatives and liberals alike... Not necessarily the dream career highlight of an incumbant Commander in Chief. But I think there is more to it than that, as some Presidents (and I'm not specifically implying any president) have been indifferent to political uproar. I think that the real reason is the exorbitant amount of money that the government receives from underage fines. Alcohol-related fines are quite possibly the most easily increased income for the government. When is the last time the population allowed income taxes to be raised drastically, without significant protest? Yet a drastic increase in substance abuse fines are relatively uncontested. Think of how many college students are in the U.S. Now think, if the majority of the college students are in the normal sequence of education (freshman 17-18 years-old, seniors 21-22 years-old), then an overwhelming majority of college students are under 21. Bust a few college parties, and the government rakes in the dough. I'd honestly like to see an accurate number of how much the government makes *solely* through underage fines. Unfortunately, that type of information is most likely secretive and accessible only to those who would refuse to expose it, aka politicians.

But then again, that theory is simply speculation, and who knows how valid it is. And I apologize if saying that made your time feel wasted, but it was said for the sake of fairness.

I'm going to hate myself in the morning, as I've infringed on my time to sleep (not to mention while doing someting of relative unimportance), to write a comment that quite possibly no one will read because it is repulsively long.

Kudos to those who have read thus far, and good night to everyone else (and those who are unhappy with only being granted kudos).

P.S. thoughts, comments, rebuttals, relevant information, praises, criticism, or any well-meaning input is welcome: machonguy@aim.com
 
Underage - overage - doesn't matter.

Drinking to the point of intoxication is a dumbass idea.

If you value your brain, your health and that of those around you, don't do it.

And for the sake of all that is worthwhile in this world, do not operate a vehicle.

In my province this week we lost three young men and an innocent cab driver to the combination of alcohol, fast cars and lack of foresight and responsibility.
It. Is. Not. Fricking. Worth. It.


Amen.

My brother lost his license for his year because he was convicted with a DWI. Now, if he had been over the age of 21, it wouldn't have mattered, because his alcohol content wasn't high enough to be legally drunk. But since he was only 20, it didn't matter. License is gone, and now he's the biggest loser and moocher that I know. And it's sad, really.
 
Amen.

My brother lost his license for his year because he was convicted with a DWI. Now, if he had been over the age of 21, it wouldn't have mattered, because his alcohol content wasn't high enough to be legally drunk. But since he was only 20, it didn't matter. License is gone, and now he's the biggest loser and moocher that I know. And it's sad, really.

Or, you can get drunk, use a bit of common sense, and don't drive. It's a win-win.
 
for some reason i think when young teens that are still in high school, that go out and drink are stupid. its pointless to go out and get drunk and think that youre cool for that. thats my word on it
 
I think a reason that our university has such a drinking problem is that the 'charming rural campus' is in the middle of nowhere with nothing for bored college kids to do. :rolleyes:

The other night and friend and I were walking around on our campus and we noticed something.. We are regaurded as a party school because there is nothing else to do!

Seriously it was a saturday night (after the Penguins game (hockey, NHL)) and we were not tired and bored, so we walked around and everything was closed! So we spend 2 hours in the freezing cold just exploring and looking for anything to do!

Now I am 18 and I have only drank since being 18, however most of the kids in my class back in high school drank since 13! That I am not okay with, and I hated most of my class because as a previous poster said they were just roudy and immatre idiots who like american football and grabbing each other..pfft soccer is better and hockey is tops ;)

However I only drink with my close friend never really go to drink, just if we feel like it. And this summer I am going to spend a weekend or so in Canada to gamble and drink legally haha, but my parents are coming too, I think they just want me to experience it legally but still make sure I am okay and everything.

So I don't know if I am right in thinking it is okay to drink at 18 (and I wish the law was that way too..The first time I had a great time w/ my friends just laughing and listening to music) or if I am still too young.. Too bad having a license for drinking is improbable because I am mature for my age, and there really isn't any kind of test for it (sort of like my views on an S-class driving license almost like car games super hard test, but you can drive at a faster speed on highways not like town roads but major ones.)
 
The drinking age in this country is total ********. 21? **** that. I can vote, buy cigarettes, get charged as an adult for any crime, get jury duty, etc. at 18 but I can't buy beer.

Oh, so people under 21 are not responsible enough to drink, right? I could go sign up for the Army right now, be through basic in like 12 weeks, and be out in the streets of Baghdad with an M4 by next spring. But I still can't go buy a beer. That's ********.
 
The drinking age in this country is total ********. 21? **** that. I can vote, buy cigarettes, get charged as an adult for any crime, get jury duty, etc. at 18 but I can't buy beer.

Oh, so people under 21 are not responsible enough to drink, right? I could go sign up for the Army right now, be through basic in like 12 weeks, and be out in the streets of Baghdad with an M4 by next spring. But I still can't go buy a beer. That's ********.

how true... for the people who don't think 13 year olds should drink, i don't agree that kids that young should drink unsupervised, but I can't think of any way better than parents taking responsibility in showing their children how to appreciate, respect, and drink responsibly. The problem is no one wants to take any sort of responsibility. It is interesting that an 18 year old can do almost anything under the law but not drink. It's ridiculous and speaks well on the current state that our country is in. With irresponsibility running rampant (sub-prime and credit card industries), and a lack of direction (Iraq, Iran, North Korea), the quality of life certainly falls (as affirmed by current rankings [UN]). Hopefully our younger generations will see this and fix it, hopefully there is time, even though there might not be any money!
 
It seems to me like the only ones who care about the drinking age are those under it, and that demographic doesn't carry much weight in voting for our representatives.
 
What I don't understand is, how can someone be responsible enough to go to war at 18, yet not be responsible enough to drink? It's ridiculous.

Edit: I went back and read that Machonguy said the same thing, only a lot better. I agree with pretty much everything he said.
 
I'd honestly like to see an accurate number of how much the government makes *solely* through underage fines. Unfortunately, that type of information is most likely secretive and accessible only to those who would refuse to expose it, aka politicians.

If you really want to know this kind of information, you should probably visit your local police department and see if they can give you any statistics. You could also read the police blotter for several months and come up with a good figure for yourself. I really doubt that many municipalities are raking in the dough from underage drinkers. They would probably make a lot more money from taxing the additional alcohol that 18-20 year olds would purchase if it were legal.
 
If you're allowed to be drafted (aka forced) to fight for your country at the age of 18--that is, if you're allowed to die for your country--why shouldn't you be allowed to drink alcohol? Is going into combat and fighting for your life require less "mature" decision than deciding that you've had enough to drink, or that you shouldn't drive home tonight and instead call a friend or a taxi?

I could go sign up for the Army right now, be through basic in like 12 weeks, and be out in the streets of Baghdad with an M4 by next spring. But I still can't go buy a beer. That's ********.

What I don't understand is, how can someone be responsible enough to go to war at 18, yet not be responsible enough to drink? It's ridiculous.
That argument is completely invalid. It's based upon a hypothetical situation that hasn't occurred for over 30 years. When (if) the draft is employed in the US, then maybe you can try and use it then.

Plus, any time you compare one age limit to another, it's a completely arbitrary argument because the other age limits may not be proper or just. For example, why not raise the age of smoking to 21 as well, rather than lower the drinking age?


Fact is, studies prove time and time again that European countries (Great Britain, Germany, Czech, France, etc.) which have more lenient drinking laws compared to the US, also have more drinking problems (especially among minors) than the US.

I have yet to see a legitimate reason why alcohol should be legal at any age, much less for those under the age of 21. (I am of course excluding prohibition as a reason, as relevant as it may be, because it has no bearing on this particular argument.)
 
That argument is completely invalid. It's based upon a hypothetical situation that hasn't occurred for over 30 years. When (if) the draft is employed in the US, then maybe you can try and use it then.

I said nothing about the draft. I could go sign up right now and be in Baghdad in like 4 months, but I would still have to wait another 11 months before I could legally buy booze.
 
I said nothing about the draft. I could go sign up right now and be in Baghdad in like 4 months, but I would still have to wait another 11 months before I could legally buy booze.
You could also play with your family's gun at age 7 and shoot your neighbor. So?

Besides, your comparing two activities: fighting in combat for your country (voluntarily) and taking drugs. ...I don't see the similarities.

Or... Why don't we just raise the age to enter into service to 21?
 
Last year my college roommate drank so much every single night to get away from family problems @ home, it was pretty sad to see especially a young age. I don't see any problem with drinking in moderation, a glass of wine with a nice dish, a beer when you're working on the car or fishing, ect., but drinking just to get plastered doesn't seem smart at any age.
 
ive only just recently started drinking, on my 18th bday i pretty much started which was last june. 18 is the legal age to drink in aust. i really enjoy drinking, its so enjoyable to just chill with friends. i hardly ever drink, maybe twice a month if that.

i love getting out and meeting new people. and its fun to just let loose, get out and dance and do whatever. its stress relief for me.
 
Like others have said, let's make it 18 for everything.

Driving, Drinking, Voting, Guns.

Same for punishing in the courts. It should be rather simple.
I still disagree for two reasons. First of all, different activities require different levels of maturity (both emotional and physical). For example, voting is a very different activity than either smoking or drinking, and there's no reason why all three should be grouped together as if there was a relation. As another example, the 3 year difference between tobacco and alcohol age-limits is logical as well: both can kill, but alcohol has significant risks from impairment, overdose, and brain damage, whereas smoking does not.

Secondly, the drinking age should remain at 21, because this age is backed by science and research. It's that simple.
 
I began drinking for the first time freshman year of college (at the more or less undisputed #1 party school in the US). It was a blast. In four years I had more good times, met more people, and gathered more outrageous stories than the average man could shake his fist at. I also experienced some Nietzschean failures as either direct or indirect results of drink. However had I not taken part in that scene I would not be the person I am today. I would not have learned moderation, I would not have had the struggles that have shaped who I am. So, while I will not promote breaking the law or even doing what I have done, I would like to make a statement about this thread:


I would patently disagree with the puritans out there who argue that they don't need to experiment with something to have an informed opinion about it. Not knowing about something is ignorance...especially not knowing about something that is experiencial. For example, I could say that I don't like to play baseball, but who would care about my opinion after I told them I had never held a bat or tossed a ball? Don't misunderstand me, there are plenty of things I think are wrong, or don't like, that I have not done. I am technically ignorant about those things (recreational drugs, murder, theft, unprovoked violence, the frayed edge of sexual behavior), and I am happy to be ignorant of them.


If someone does not like drinking, they are free to hold that opinion, so long as they are honest about why they hold that opinion. If they are ignorant of drinking, they shouldn't go waving around statistics (a dirty science as far as I'm concerned) or anecdotes "prove" their stance "right". Be happy with your opinion and don't discount/bastardize the value of experience. When I have kids, I have plenty of responsible advice to give them based on my experince, not my fears or preconceptions. This reminds me of Sherwood Anderson's vignette "Drink: Concering Tom Foster" from his book Winesburg, Ohio. Its a good read (the whole book too).


I whole heartedly agree with the idea of moderation that is being lobbed back and forth like a beach ball in a packed stadium. Moderation is a great idea if you know what moderation is...and its different for everyone. Life is a voyage of self discovery, you need to figure things out for yourself instead of having other people tell you how things are done. (I realize how hypocritical that last line must be considering what I am going to school for, however its a personal belief, not my soon-to-be professional one)...Maslow's heirarchy of needs and all that jazz.

You all have a nice discussion going on here, keep up the good work.


P.S.
Secondly, the drinking age should remain at 21, because this age is backed by science and research. It's that simple.
Enlighten us as to the scientific basis behind 21 being the legal drinking age. I am quite interested (and have my Embryology and Development texts nearby).
 
I was told by by psych teacher that the drinking age is 21 because that's when the average human brain is fully developed.

Is that true? Any psychs out there?

To the OP: If you are under 21, you should not be drinking alcohol.
 
I have one question regarding underage drinking in the US:
Is drinking when you are underage a crime? Or is it only a crime for the one who bought you the alcohol?
 
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