Uninterruptible Power Supply threads?

[Ravich]

I cant take any chances as long as there are conflicting accounts, because it seems like APC changes things around. From their knowledgebase:

A fan is included on any Smart-UPS 1400 VA higher and on all "XL" models.

All "SU" model units and earlier "SUA " units utilize a single speed fan. The fan will only be on during the following scenarios:

1. The UPS is on battery.
2. The UPS is charging the battery.
3. The UPS has a load greater than 75%.
4. The internal temperature of the UPS has reached greater than 140 degrees F (60 degrees C). Note, for 4th Generation units (model number begins with SUA) the temperature range has changed. For these models, the internal temperature will have to be greater than 104 degrees F (40 degrees C)



Later SUA model units utilize a 2 Speed fan. On these units the fan will always be on in low speed mode, and will switch to high speed mode should one of the following events occur:

1. The UPS is on battery.
2. The UPS is charging the battery.
3. The UPS has a load greater than 75%.
4. The internal temperature of the UPS has reached greater than 104 degrees F (40 degrees C).

It doesnt even explain what the difference is between later and earlier SUA models, so for all I know, that model may very well have the fan on 100% of the time. The fact that the fan is always on at 75% load and greater is also a bit of a turn off, since I'm still not entirely sure how much I'm going to be asking of my UPS.

 

[nanofrog]

Anybody know? Also, excessups just emailed me asking why I didnt buy the refurbished smart APC UPS and I explained that I wasnt willing to pay 60$ for shipping, so they asked me if free shipping would work for me.

My gut says no because of the potential fan noise issues that I cant seem to get a solid report on, but does anyone know whether excessups is an okay reseller?

There's a strong chance the quote you found is true. I just don't bother with sleep (sleep and RAID have traditionally not played well toghether).

If they're offering free shipping for the SUA1500, get it. Personally, I wouldn't have had a problem paying the $60 shipping cost, as total price is still a deal compared to what that unit goes for new (still save over $100).

Noise won't be an issue with that model (larger fan and heatsink; smaller units use 25mm fans which have to spin very fast to move sufficient airflow over a smaller heatsink). So the cheaper units could be a problem for you (XS and RX models), as the fans only kick in when the inverter is running and they are audible (not so bad it's unacceptable to me, as power is more important than noise <reminds me of a graphics card running hard in terms of dB>, but everyone is different in this regard).

 

[Ravich]

I have heard most accounts say that the RS models are dead silent because the fan will ONLY run when the unit is on battery power.

4. The internal temperature of the UPS has reached greater than 140 degrees F (60 degrees C). Note, for 4th Generation units (model number begins with SUA) the temperature range has changed. For these models, the internal temperature will have to be greater than 104 degrees F (40 degrees C)

Unless I am mistaken, this quote implies that the fan for this unit will be on whenever the internal temperature is greater than 104 degrees F, which is nothing, right?

 

[nanofrog]

I have heard most accounts say that the RS models are dead silent because the fan will ONLY run when the unit is on battery power.

I realize that. But you will hear it when this happens (dB levels remind me of a graphics card under load).

When running of the wall, it's not on at all, so dead silent. But the output isn't pure sine wave either when on battery. Wall, yes.

Unless I am mistaken, this quote implies that the fan for this unit will be on whenever the internal temperature is greater than 104 degrees F, which is nothing, right?

104F = 40C

That said, you won't have a problem with it IMO. You have to keep in mind that a larger fan is quieter, as it can move more air at lower rpms than a smaller fan. SUA's are 80mm I think, the RS and XS units use a 25mm unit. BIG difference.

Under max load, both are rated at 45dB @ 1 meter. This means they're running off of the battery at the max load possible for the unit (865W on the RS, 980W on the SUA1500).

If you're pulling that much, you need a bigger unit anyway, as you won't have any battery time to speak of (probably no more than 3 minutes on fresh batteries).

 

[Ravich]

After replying and explaining my concerns with the SUA1500, they got back to me and said they hear about the fan problems from lots of customers, and recommended I try the 1500LTV instead, and if I had any issues with it, they would give a full refund and pay for shipping.

Sounds good to me, but... I cant figure out what the difference between the SUA and TLV are. The APC knowledgebase doesnt even find any results when I search TLV...

 

[nanofrog]

After replying and explaining my concerns with the SUA1500, they got back to me and said they hear about the fan problems from lots of customers, and recommended I try the 1500LTV instead, and if I had any issues with it, they would give a full refund and pay for shipping.

Sounds good to me, but... I cant figure out what the difference between the SUA and TLV are. The APC knowledgebase doesnt even find any results when I search TLV...

Doesn't ring a bell at all.

Maybe the SURTA1500XL?
That's one of the Online types.

 

[Ravich]

I called APC to figure it out, and they said it was basically the same as the SUA model, but a few years back they paired with IBM for parts or something. So... basically it's the same thing, but I'm not entirely sure why he recommended it to me over the SUA.

But since he offered to cover return shipping if I wasnt satisfied for any reason, I'm probably just going to go with.

 

[Apple Corps]

nano - those SURTA units cost a bundle. There is a point of diminishing returns that all of us have to sort out for our reality.

Our oldest Mac is a G4 "Lamp" 17". It is on an inexpensive APC unit and has seen brown outs, surges, spikes, noise, thunderstorms, AC power on and off many times a day - ..........

It is still humming along after 5 years or so.

My experience is that your computer will be outdated before it dies from transient current issues as long as you have it on a reasonable quality UPS.

BTW - I also run 2 SUA 1500s for the more power hungry MPs.

 

[nanofrog]

nano - those SURTA units cost a bundle. There is a point of diminishing returns that all of us have to sort out for our reality.

Our oldest Mac is a G4 "Lamp" 17". It is on an inexpensive APC unit and has seen brown outs, surges, spikes, noise, thunderstorms, AC power on and off many times a day - ..........

It is still humming along after 5 years or so.

My experience is that your computer will be outdated before it dies from transient current issues as long as you have it on a reasonable quality UPS.

BTW - I also run 2 SUA 1500s for the more power hungry MPs.

I know the Online units are pricey new. As a result, I try to find them refurbished, as you can get them for less than half the cost (about the same as an SUA 1500 new). You can get new Tripp Lite Online units for ~$540 new (also 1500VA).

And the SUA1500 is a good unit. It's line interactive, but it has a pure sine wave output, and can be had refurbished for ~$250 (not too much different than a BackUPS 1500VA LCD unit).

So if funds allow, the Sxxx1500XL units are my first choice (refurbished, as new is too expensive for most individuals). Second choice is an SUA1500 (refurbished is still good here too).

 

[ntux]

If you'd like to go the cheap way (and still have pure sine wave), you can pickup a used SmartUPS SUA1000 (with dead batteries) and replace them with generic ones.

You'll have to replace the battery connectors on the UPS (and the fuse), but you'll pay the generic batteries much much cheaper than the APC ones, and can even get extended capacity than the standard ones (about the same as the SUA1000XL or SUA1500).

The guide is here.

 

[2contagious]

Hi,

I was looking at UPS as well and I found this cheap one:
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/65711

APC Back-UPS CS 650 - AC 230V - 400W - 650VA - RS-232 / USB - 4 Output Connectors

Will this be enough for my 2010 Mac Pro and screen? How long will the battery last? 10mins? 15 mins?

Also, does the software even work on Mac OS X or is it better to buy one (for a mac) that doesn't use software and makes an alarm sound instead?

 

[Apple Corps]

I do not believe that UPS has sufficient VA for a MP and screen - very marginal at best.

 

[Bubbalicious]

Does anyone have any recommendations for or against a refurbished UPS?

I mean, if I can get Smart UPS for 250$, why not?

The ones I've narrowed it down to are:

http://www.amazon.com/APC-BACK-UPS-BR1500LCD-1500VA-System/dp/B000NDA5E0/

http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BR1500LCD

http://excessups.com/smartups-1500-sua1500-p-38.html

http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BX1500G


All are in the ~200-250$ range.

The Smart-UPS is by far the best option, hands down, no competition. The Smart-UPS is a line interactive unit, outputs a pure sine wave, offers avr boost/drop, surge protection and power filtering. This is by far the best option. The price of a new 1500 is $559.99, it's an industrial units while all the other ones are more like home units. I have 6 of these units refurbished, never had a problem.

Hi,

I was looking at UPS as well and I found this cheap one:
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/65711

APC Back-UPS CS 650 - AC 230V - 400W - 650VA - RS-232 / USB - 4 Output Connectors

Will this be enough for my 2010 Mac Pro and screen? How long will the battery last? 10mins? 15 mins?

Also, does the software even work on Mac OS X or is it better to buy one (for a mac) that doesn't use software and makes an alarm sound instead?

The 650 is way too small, it's either going to overload or provide you no run time. For most Mac's, you need to go with minimum of a 1000VA.

Doesn't ring a bell at all.

Maybe the SURTA1500XL?
That's one of the Online types.

The SURTA1500XL is an industrial units used in data centers, it's not a very popular unit as it's extremely expensive for what it does and not practical. The SUA1500/1500TLV are pretty much the same unit. They're the best of the bunch, most versatile and most data center friendly. The 1500TLV is the SUA1500 with an IBM front cover, 80W of extra capacity, phone line/network protection. That's it. The firmwave, software and components are all the same across the units. Both units are awesome.

 

[nanofrog]

The SURTA1500XL is an industrial units used in data centers, it's not a very popular unit as it's extremely expensive for what it does and not practical. The SUA1500/1500TLV are pretty much the same unit. They're the best of the bunch, most versatile and most data center friendly. The 1500TLV is the SUA1500 with an IBM front cover, 80W of extra capacity, phone line/network protection. That's it. The firmwave, software and components are all the same across the units. Both units are awesome.

I just don't recall the 1500TLV. If that's the OEM P/N for the IBM unit, that would explain it though, as I've used APC's parts (APC label and P/N's). Some Tripp Lite units (unit is cheaper, but the batteries are more expensive; refurbished APC units are cheaper in the long run).

SURTA1500XL = Online version
SUA1500 = Line Interactive

Both are really good (pure sine wave output, unlike the RS or LS models = stepped), but the Online unit does offer a bit more additional protection, particularly under brownout conditions (always runs off of the battery + inverter = 120V AC, no matter what's going on at the wall; unless the batteries are exhausted). The Line Interactive units use an auto transformer to pull up the voltage until the wall sags to 90V, then it switches over to the battery + inverter. The auto transformer can't always output 120V though (wall voltage * multiplier <result of winding> that's chosen by the unit to keep the voltage the closest to 120V <or whatever it is, if a different country than the US>)

 

[2contagious]

The 650 is way too small, it's either going to overload or provide you no run time. For most Mac's, you need to go with minimum of a 1000VA.

So anything below 1000VA is worthless for a Mac Pro?
The only UPS over 1000VA I can find are 300 british pounds or more

 

[MCHR]

So anything below 1000VA is worthless for a Mac Pro?
The only UPS over 1000VA I can find are 300 british pounds or more

The SMT/SUA 1000 is what I'm considering. But what's holding me back are the reviews stating the excessive fan cycling and noise.

Any thoughts or experience?

 

[Bubbalicious]

I just don't recall the 1500TLV. If that's the OEM P/N for the IBM unit, that would explain it though, as I've used APC's parts (APC label and P/N's). Some Tripp Lite units (unit is cheaper, but the batteries are more expensive; refurbished APC units are cheaper in the long run).

SURTA1500XL = Online version
SUA1500 = Line Interactive

Both are really good (pure sine wave output, unlike the RS or LS models = stepped), but the Online unit does offer a bit more additional protection, particularly under brownout conditions (always runs off of the battery + inverter = 120V AC, no matter what's going on at the wall; unless the batteries are exhausted). The Line Interactive units use an auto transformer to pull up the voltage until the wall sags to 90V, then it switches over to the battery + inverter. The auto transformer can't always output 120V though (wall voltage * multiplier <result of winding> that's chosen by the unit to keep the voltage the closest to 120V <or whatever it is, if a different country than the US>)

Yes, the 1500TLV is the IBM part number. These units were originally sold with the X series servers that IBM was selling. It was yet another way they could charge a premium on something, therefore the change from the SUA to the 1500TLV.

I agree with you completely, the line interactive units are much better than all the RS, XS, and CS units put together. The line interactive units offer real protection. All the others are just an inverter with a battery. If you spend big bucks on your equipment, why cheap out on the UPS?

 

[Bubbalicious]

The SMT/SUA 1000 is what I'm considering. But what's holding me back are the reviews stating the excessive fan cycling and noise.

Any thoughts or experience?

The fan problems are with the SMT series. APC claims that the latest version have this under control, however I didn't see this yet as we had to return one a few weeks back because of the noise. The SUA's do not have this problem. Their fan only goes on when needed, conditions such as running on battery, heavy load or recharging. During normal operation, no fan.

If you're really concerned about this, go with the SUA route. It's cheaper and you won't have the problems.

 

[Bubbalicious]

So anything below 1000VA is worthless for a Mac Pro?
The only UPS over 1000VA I can find are 300 british pounds or more

Did you look locally for a refurbished unit? You could also look for a used unit, replace the batteries yourself and save a tonne of money.

 

[MCHR]

Did you look locally for a refurbished unit? You could also look for a used unit, replace the batteries yourself and save a tonne of money.

Are refurbs generally as 'reliable' as OEM units? I'd hate to have a UPS bomb out on me. . .

 

[ycookmd]

The 1500TLV is the SUA1500 with an IBM front cover, 80W of extra capacity, phone line/network protection. That's it. The firmwave, software and components are all the same across the units. Both units are awesome.

I just received and set up my Mac Pro over the weekend. I have the Apple RAID card (yes, I know it's "proprietary junk" ) running a 4-stripe array. I am testing things out now, and would like to get a power supply that will perform a smooth shutdown in the event of a power failure. I was looking at getting a SUA2200 to power the Mac, 1 or 2 monitors, and 2 external RAID boxes for backup. Without a 20A dedicated line (required?), I think a pair of refurbished SUA1500s would be better for me.

The "extra 80W" of capacity in the 1500TLV is also noted on the ExcessUPS website. However, it is a seller-refurbished unit, and it looks like the replacement battery they spec for the 1500TLV (the RBC7) is the same as that for the SUA1500. So, I am not sure their refurbished TLV is any different from the SUA in terms of capacity...

 

[philipma1957]

I just received and set up my Mac Pro over the weekend. I have the Apple RAID card (yes, I know it's "proprietary junk" ) running a 4-stripe array. I am testing things out now, and would like to get a power supply that will perform a smooth shutdown in the event of a power failure. I was looking at getting a SUA2200 to power the Mac, 1 or 2 monitors, and 2 external RAID boxes for backup. Without a 20A dedicated line (required?), I think a pair of refurbished SUA1500s would be better for me.

The "extra 80W" of capacity in the 1500TLV is also noted on the ExcessUPS website. However, it is a seller-refurbished unit, and it looks like the replacement battery they spec for the 1500TLV (the RBC7) is the same as that for the SUA1500. So, I am not sure their refurbished TLV is any different from the SUA in terms of capacity...

I just ordered 2 units from excessups website. if you can wait about 5 or 6 days I can tell you how the refurb quality is.
Here is some of the order page:

Shipping details:
The seller hasn’t provided any shipping details yet.

-----------------------------------
Purchase Details
-----------------------------------

Description: APC SMART-UPS 1400 SU1400RMNET RACKMOUNT 3U BACKUP UPS , Item#
Qty: 1
Unit Price: $219.99 USD
Total: $219.99 USD

Description: APC SMART-UPS 1000 3U 1000VA SU1000RMNET BATT BACKUP , Item#
Qty: 1
Unit Price: $159.99 USD
Total: $159.99 USD

Subtotal: $379.98 USD
Shipping and handling: $**.** USD
Insurance - not offered : ----

Total: $***.** USD

Payment: $***.** USD

Payment sent to: sales@excessups.com These are the rack mount models. one is for my mac pro one is for other gear.

 

[nanofrog]

Yes, the 1500TLV is the IBM part number. These units were originally sold with the X series servers that IBM was selling. It was yet another way they could charge a premium on something, therefore the change from the SUA to the 1500TLV.

Good to know, in case one turns up as a refurbished unit, as it's definitely a way to save money, and still get a fully functioning unit.

I agree with you completely, the line interactive units are much better than all the RS, XS, and CS units put together. The line interactive units offer real protection. All the others are just an inverter with a battery. If you spend big bucks on your equipment, why cheap out on the UPS?

All but the SURTA1500XL units are switched inverter systems. But the difference is the SURTA1500XL and SUA1500 use inverters that have a pure sine wave output.

The 1500VA LCD models even have the auto transformers, but the inverters generate a stepped wave output, which can cause damage to some systems (I've seen it before).

That unit has been used with MP's before with no reports of damage, but I'm uneasy about it myself, as I have seen damage from them before; usually the PSU. When you can get a refurbished SUA1500 for ~$250 (before shipping)), it's not a big deal IMO (worth the extra $50 - 60 in price + difference in shipping, as they are heavier by about 20lbs I think).

The fan problems are with the SMT series. APC claims that the latest version have this under control, however I didn't see this yet as we had to return one a few weeks back because of the noise. The SUA's do not have this problem. Their fan only goes on when needed, conditions such as running on battery, heavy load or recharging. During normal operation, no fan.

If you're really concerned about this, go with the SUA route. It's cheaper and you won't have the problems.

I've never had noise issues out of the SUA or SURTA models myself.

Did you look locally for a refurbished unit? You could also look for a used unit, replace the batteries yourself and save a tonne of money.

True, but there should be a bit more of an advantage with a refurbished unit than convenience (assuming the refurbishing company isn't cutting corners).

That is, they go in and clean out the internals (particularly important for the inverter heat sink), investigate the capacitors (electrolytics tend to need replaced every 10 years due to bulging/leaks), and test it out before they ship it to make sure it meets spec.

Just a thought.

Are refurbs generally as 'reliable' as OEM units? I'd hate to have a UPS bomb out on me. . .

In my experience, Yes.

You'd be wise to check out the warranty/return policy, as well as customer complaints on the web though before buying just to be safe IMO (BBB and reseller ratings for example).

 

[Bubbalicious]

Are refurbs generally as 'reliable' as OEM units? I'd hate to have a UPS bomb out on me. . .

UPSs are usually very reliable. There are no moving parts inside and most of the time they sit idle. The most common failure is batteries. A good high quality battery should have a life time of 3-5 years. A refurbished UPS shouldn't give you any problems.

 

[Bubbalicious]

I just received and set up my Mac Pro over the weekend. I have the Apple RAID card (yes, I know it's "proprietary junk" ) running a 4-stripe array. I am testing things out now, and would like to get a power supply that will perform a smooth shutdown in the event of a power failure. I was looking at getting a SUA2200 to power the Mac, 1 or 2 monitors, and 2 external RAID boxes for backup. Without a 20A dedicated line (required?), I think a pair of refurbished SUA1500s would be better for me.

The "extra 80W" of capacity in the 1500TLV is also noted on the ExcessUPS website. However, it is a seller-refurbished unit, and it looks like the replacement battery they spec for the 1500TLV (the RBC7) is the same as that for the SUA1500. So, I am not sure their refurbished TLV is any different from the SUA in terms of capacity...

The SUA1500 and the 1500TLV both use the RBC7. The difference in capacity doesn't mean an increase in run time. What the extra 80W means is that it can be loaded up an extra 80W, but the run time will not be any longer.

Max Capacity SUA1500 = 980W (at the same time)
Max Capcacity 1500TLV = 1050W (at the same time)


Hope that helps to explain it. Let me know if it just confused everything more.