Upcoming EU Sideloading Bill Would 'Cripple the Privacy and Security Protections' iPhone Users Expect, Says Apple

[I7guy]

For a new market entrant, yes. The model was still heavily outsold by things like Nokia N95.

Let's put it this way:
The 1st gen iPhone wasn't the game changer some make it out to be.

In your opinion of course, which I duly respect.

The real game changer was the SDK and App Store that enabled developers to develop apps - and the iPhone to take off (coinciding with the release of the 3G and expanded country/carrier support). Not only the iPhone, but the whole smartphone market/industry. And that's what killed Nokia and Microsoft's Windows Phone: Availability of apps.

Don't agree about Microsoft's Windows Phone, but ok.

And that's as true today as it was back then:
The App ecosystem is key.

Yes, Apple recognized that early on.

Quoting again from above:

That's no viable course of action.

? Nobody will buy 500€ or 1000€ smartphones if they can't download and install native apps on them.
? It will cost Apple billions of dollars in revenue and earnings, and much valuable market share. Shareholders are not going to like it.

If Apple made all of the apps and had a closed app store, there would still be lawsuits and challenges in my opinion.

And it isn't a credible or effective threat in trying to force lawmakers' hands by public uproar either. By shutting down the App Store in the EU, Apple would be facing an uphill battle about public opinion that they can't win.

The issue is the cat is out of bag. I think this is bad for the EU going forward and companies are going to be reluctant to deploy tech that 10 years down the line, will be taken away from them. Apple can't win, but they will proceed differently in the future.

- There's very few people championing "free enterprise" and unregulated markets. A broad majority supports actively regulating big IT/tech companies (probably even more if these companies are American or British).

There is a certain amount of people who champion capitalism. Society can't be un-regulated, but not everything should be regulated either.

- Outside for a of the circles of a few Apple fanboys (and -girls), Apple doesn't enjoy great brand loyalty in the smartphone market. Most phone users are either indifferent about brand or consider Apple "as having almost extortionate prices but darn well-made products". That user experience will be severely compromised by shutting down the App Store. Or they are invested in the "ecosystem" - the very ecosystem that would be taken away from them.

You mean outside the 1 billion customers Apple already has, it doesn't enjoy great brand loyalty. Totally agree.

- And neither will EU consumers keep buying Apple's products out of patriotism/for their American origin over, say, Korean or Taiwanese products (though Chinese products may be seen somewhat more critically).

All in all this regulation is a lose, lose. Consumers will lose. Devs will lose. Shareholders will lose. But the fanboys (and -girls) of government regulation will be gleeful about this. All imo, of course.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Apple made all of the apps and had a closed app store, there would still be lawsuits and challenges in my opinion

Lawsuits? Oh, with wording such as „The gatekeeper shall not be prevented from taking proportionate measures to ensure that third party software applications or software application stores do not endanger the integrity of the hardware or operating system provided by the gatekeeper“, I‘m sure there will be lawsuits

The issue is the cat is out of bag. I think this is bad for the EU going forward and companies are going to be reluctant to deploy tech that 10 years down the line, will be taken away from them. Apple can't win, but they will proceed differently in the future.

The tech won’t be taken away - just their exploitation of it will be somewhat limited.
And no, there‘s no indication at all they‘ll be reluctant to cater to the European market.
Just look at the Chinese market, which is arguably ten times worse in that regard - and yet Apple had and has no qualms to accommodate China and their policies.

You mean outside the 1 billion customers Apple already has, it doesn't enjoy great brand loyalty. Totally agree.

Number of customers doesn‘t equal (strong) brand loyalty. Yes, as long they‘re making attractive products that consumers want and can justify paying the price for. If Apple stopped offering the app store in a market, if consumers can’t have their WhatsApp, Instagram, public transport and banking apps and games, they‘d be giving them the finger and switch to Android in a heartbeat. Only a tiny fraction‘s brand loyalty will go as far as sticking with the brand cause they‘ve always had Apple products if they can‘t have downloadable apps on their smartphones.

Consumers will lose. Devs will lose. Shareholders will lose

Developers? Why developers? They‘ll only have more choice how to distribute their apps.

 

[I7guy]

Lawsuits? Oh, with wording such as „The gatekeeper shall not be prevented from taking proportionate measures to ensure that third party software applications or software application stores do not endanger the integrity of the hardware or operating system provided by the gatekeeper“, I‘m sure there will be lawsuits

Yep, positive there would be lawsuits, if in an alternate reality, there was no IOS app store.

The tech won’t be taken away - just their exploitation of it will be somewhat limited.

Change the word "exploitation" to "deployment" and I believe you have a whiff of the future.

And no, there‘s no indication at all they‘ll be reluctant to cater to the European market.
Just look at the Chinese market, which is arguably ten times worse in that regard - and yet Apple had and has no qualms to accommodate China and their policies.

Chinese aren't usurping their ip.

Number of customers doesn‘t equal (strong) brand loyalty. Yes, as long they‘re making attractive products that consumers want and can justify paying the price for. If Apple stopped offering the app store in a market, if consumers can’t have their WhatsApp, Instagram, public transport and banking apps and games, they‘d be giving them the finger and switch to Android in a heartbeat. Only a tiny fraction‘s brand loyalty will go as far as sticking with the brand cause they‘ve always had Apple products if they can‘t have downloadable apps on their smartphones.

Can you point to any study, anywhere that shows that Apple doesn't have strong brand loyalty? Because at this time you are, imo, using anecdotal evidence promulgated as fact.

Developers? Why developers? They‘ll only have more choice how to distribute their apps.

Everybody will lose. For devs, it will be race to the bottom.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Can you point to any study, anywhere that shows that Apple doesn't have strong brand loyalty?

They do have strong brand loyalty.
But not one that will trump inability to download and install third-party apps.

Want a study? I doubt there's one. The thought of Apple closing their App Store in the EU is so preposterous that nobody's going to bother to make study about.

If the DMA comes to pass, Apple will probably fight tooth and nail in courts about its implementation details. Maybe even make some commission adjustments. And that's that.

 

[djphat2000]

EU announces Big Tech crackdown, demands interoperability between platforms

Lawmakers agree on Digital Markets Act to regulate Big Tech; final votes still pending.

arstechnica.com

Looks like the EU will proceed with this ridiculousness.
Go for it EU. Can wait for these companies to start pulling out one by one.

 

[bluecoast]

This is great. I’m tired of the platform owners using lock-in as a business strategy.

It’s not just bad for rival services & consumers, it’s bad for Apple too.

I’m sure the rate of innovation and improvement in their own services and apps would be way way faster if Apple lost the advantages that that they have as a platform owner.

Imagine how many new great features messages/iMessage, Apple Music, Safari/WebKit, iCloud Drive etc would get.

Imagine how much better the App Store will magically get when it has competition.

I prefer the Apple that is creative and innovates. Not the one that seems to spend hundreds of millions on lobbyists and lawyers to keep its advantages.

And finally, for those that believe Apple’s arguments about rival app stores etc being a security issue. I’m sure Apple can work this out.

Basically the only thing that this won’t be good for is Apple’s drive to be a 3 Trillion US $ company.

 

[djphat2000]

This is great. I’m tired of the platform owners using lock-in as a business strategy.

You do realize that you have to accept the lock in right? It's not like the iPhone pops out of a bush or jumps the fence and lands in your pocket preset with all your contact information photo's and text messages all pre-locking you in to their platform? No one is locked into anything.

If they don't do a good job with the products and services they sell, your free to go and pick something else.

It’s not just bad for rival services & consumers, it’s bad for Apple too.

Not sure I understand. Rivals exist no? You can as a customer pick something else If Apple's products and services are not up to your standards or for whatever reason you don't like them. You don't have to pick them. Others do pick them, willingly.

I’m sure the rate of innovation and improvement in their own services and apps would be way way faster if Apple lost the advantages that that they have as a platform owner.

What advantages do you speak of? The ones they earned along the way? All the time, energy, resources, money, people power etc. Did someone give that all to them ahead of time, or did they earn it the right way? They took a chance, a risk that their approach would work. It just as easily could have failed and the Nokia's and Blackberries of the world would still be around and more successful than Apple ever had been. So now the EU wishes to punish that success by placing caps on how much you can make (75 Billion Euro's) before they clamp down on them.
How have we not had innovation? Others have tired, and the market decided which wins and loses.

Imagine how many new great features messages/iMessage, Apple Music, Safari/WebKit, iCloud Drive etc would get.

We have a multiple of messenger apps, Music apps, Web browsers and cloud storage(s). They innovate all the time. Apple chooses to be a closed ecosystem. Which means they are limited to the devices they sell for their services to work at it's best. They offer some of their services on other platforms too. Same as Google does, and Microsoft. And as a company they should get to decide how they want their apps/services to work on other platforms. Not some regulated body like the EU.

Imagine how much better the App Store will magically get when it has competition.

It has competition, it's called the Google PlayStore.

I prefer the Apple that is creative and innovates. Not the one that seems to spend hundreds of millions on lobbyists and lawyers to keep its advantages.

I wish they didn't have to spend money on lobbyists as well. But, with laws like these coming from the EU. They may not have spent enough. Well, just look at the savings they will enough not having to do that anymore in the EU!

And finally, for those that believe Apple’s arguments about rival app stores etc being a security issue. I’m sure Apple can work this out.

Yeah, just work it out Apple. You can do it! Oh wait, they already did by not having the stores on the platform in the first place...

Basically the only thing that this won’t be good for is Apple’s drive to be a 3 Trillion US $ company.

I believe they hit that mark once (briefly). They are a publicly traded company. Reaching higher and higher valuations is what keeps the investments coming in. Which in turn keeps the company growing and supplies the resources to innovate, invest in research and development of new and exicting products. Open more stores all over the world, and employ more people... Yeah, never mind that.

 

[bluecoast]

You do realize that you have to accept the lock in right? It's not like the iPhone pops out of a bush or jumps the fence and lands in your pocket preset with all your contact information photo's and text messages all pre-locking you in to their platform? No one is locked into anything.

If they don't do a good job with the products and services they sell, your free to go and pick something else.

Not sure I understand. Rivals exist no? You can as a customer pick something else If Apple's products and services are not up to your standards or for whatever reason you don't like them. You don't have to pick them. Others do pick them, willingly.

What advantages do you speak of? The ones they earned along the way? All the time, energy, resources, money, people power etc. Did someone give that all to them ahead of time, or did they earn it the right way? They took a chance, a risk that their approach would work. It just as easily could have failed and the Nokia's and Blackberries of the world would still be around and more successful than Apple ever had been. So now the EU wishes to punish that success by placing caps on how much you can make (75 Billion Euro's) before they clamp down on them.
How have we not had innovation? Others have tired, and the market decided which wins and loses.

We have a multiple of messenger apps, Music apps, Web browsers and cloud storage(s). They innovate all the time. Apple chooses to be a closed ecosystem. Which means they are limited to the devices they sell for their services to work at it's best. They offer some of their services on other platforms too. Same as Google does, and Microsoft. And as a company they should get to decide how they want their apps/services to work on other platforms. Not some regulated body like the EU.

It has competition, it's called the Google PlayStore.

I wish they didn't have to spend money on lobbyists as well. But, with laws like these coming from the EU. They may not have spent enough. Well, just look at the savings they will enough not having to do that anymore in the EU!

Yeah, just work it out Apple. You can do it! Oh wait, they already did by not having the stores on the platform in the first place...

I believe they hit that mark once (briefly). They are a publicly traded company. Reaching higher and higher valuations is what keeps the investments coming in. Which in turn keeps the company growing and supplies the resources to innovate, invest in research and development of new and exicting products. Open more stores all over the world, and employ more people... Yeah, never mind that.

Are you Tim Cook!?

In all seriousness, when a company/platform gets to a certain size, anti-trust measures usually have to be applied.

Simply because operating at a huge scale brings incredible advantages that damage the innovation and competition in that sector in the long run.

Yes, this is a ‘tax on success’ but it stops companies from milking said success and forces them to innovate in other areas.

It’s why you had/have lots of ‘Baby Bells’ in the USA and why there’s not a Standard Oil supplying over 90% of the USA’s oil supply anymore.

We’re going to have to agree to disagree, I suspect.

Personally, I probably won’t install a rival AppStore - but I think I’m going to enjoy seeing a reinvigorated App Store that will have to compete with other services.

I’ll probably stick with iCloud. But I’m going to enjoy seeing a choice of cloud providers in the iOS set up sequence & enjoy the new faster rate of development in Apple’s services when Apple is forced to better compete here.

I’m going to enjoy Apple Music getting better faster when it doesn’t have the advantages it has today re being the solely promoted service in iOS.

I’m going to enjoy Apple fighting for mindshare re it’s services and fighting harder than it currently does.

As I said in my OP - IMHO, it’s better for Apple (re innovation) and better for consumers.

 

[I7guy]

Are you Tim Cook!?

One doesn’t know if Tim Cook is masquerading as a Macrumors poster gathering intel.

In all seriousness, when a company/platform gets to a certain size, anti-trust measures usually have to be applied.

Anti-trust not micro regulation.

Simply because operating at a huge scale brings incredible advantages that damage the innovation and competition in that sector in the long run.

Stifling big tech so small tech can have an advantage is ludicrous.

Yes, this is a ‘tax on success’ but it stops companies from milking said success and forces them to innovate in other areas.

Really, that’s exactly what companies should be doing. Regulations that prevent companies from milking their success hopefully end up in the Supreme Court overturned.

It’s why you had/have lots of ‘Baby Bells’ in the USA and why there’s not a Standard Oil supplying over 90% of the USA’s oil supply anymore.

Perfect example of how anti trust failed the people the government was trying to protect, imo.

We’re going to have to agree to disagree, I suspect.

Yup.

Personally, I probably won’t install a rival AppStore - but I think I’m going to enjoy seeing a reinvigorated App Store that will have to compete with other services.

It’ll be a race to the bottom, imo.

I’ll probably stick with iCloud. But I’m going to enjoy seeing a choice of cloud providers in the iOS set up sequence & enjoy the new faster rate of development in Apple’s services when Apple is forced to better compete here.

And csam scanning still won’t go away.

I’m going to enjoy Apple Music getting better faster when it doesn’t have the advantages it has today re being the solely promoted service in iOS.

Spotify already has more subscribers.

I’m going to enjoy Apple fighting for mindshare re it’s services and fighting harder than it currently does.

Or maybe they won’t have to.

As I said in my OP - IMHO, it’s better for Apple (re innovation) and better for consumers.

It’s a race to the bottom as their already is dozens of competitors to the iPhone and Mac.

 

[Tagbert]

Apple's strategy gave independent developers a nearly risk-free and financially affordable way of developing for a very popular platform. $99/year for libraries and tech support and 15%/30% after the fact sales. With no worry about distribution costs, accounting, etc, etc, etc.

We will never know how the success of Apple vs Android may have developed in a alternate universe where Apple didn't have an app store.

Just ask Microsoft

 

[I7guy]

Just ask Microsoft

Don’t know if Microsoft needed an App Store. I thought what killed the windows phone was more of a crappy implementation.

 

[Tagbert]

Don’t know if Microsoft needed an App Store. I thought what killed the windows phone was more of a crappy implementation.

Mainly there were no apps. The actual phone OS was pretty good. It just was missing software.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Windows Phone looked good and worked well. The interface with its live tiles was user-friendly and made sense. More than on a desktop (looking at you, Windows 8!). Nokia devices made for it were well-made and included not only colourful device options, in a world dominated by bland colour offerings from other smartphone makers, but very affordable and great value devices as well.

The similar look to Windows 8 unfortunately gave the UI some bad rep by mere association, but the main reason for the platform's downfalls was lack of high-quality apps.

I'm neither missing Windows as a desktop OS very much, nor am I a big fan of Microsoft Office. But I do wish Windows Phone was still around as a viable competitor against the (virtual) duopoly that is iOS and Android. The one Microsoft product I miss most and with it were still around.

 

[I7guy]

Mainly there were no apps. The actual phone OS was pretty good. It just was missing software.

Similar to Blackberry, vote with $$$. Apple (and maybe google) is getting punished because they produced a good product. As I said before my opinion is the EU (and maybe the US) will get exactly the outcome of this legislation...if the now 3 cell phone companies in the US are any indication of what the long term break-up of AT&T did. Race to the bottom with service, with race to the top with cost.

 

[djphat2000]

Are you Tim Cook!?

I'll take his pay, but he earned being who he is.

In all seriousness, when a company/platform gets to a certain size, anti-trust measures usually have to be applied.

Usually, "IF" they are doing something wrong. Regulations that already exist is what keeps them from breaking any rules. We generally don't go making new rules and state "You broke these rules, pay up fat cat!".

Simply because operating at a huge scale brings incredible advantages that damage the innovation and competition in that sector in the long run.

What don't we have that we should by now? We can pay each other (P2P) with messaging apps. We can video conference between 30 people via FaceTime on or off an iPhone, all fully encrypted. We can live stream our lives 24/7/365 on multiple platforms (good bad or otherwise) from anywhere on the globe, all with a device that fits in your pocket. Did I mention it even works a few feet/meters underwater? This is many devices that can do this by the way, not just Apple's. Some phones have as many lenses as insects have eyes (practically, not for reals). Innovation? Are you not entertained?

Yes, this is a ‘tax on success’ but it stops companies from milking said success and forces them to innovate in other areas.

Show me them milking the cow, and we can talk about it. But, till then.
I can accept that in the EU, success is something that should be measured limited and controlled. I'll never open a business there, or wish to sell anything within those boarders. I wish them well, and no ill will. Just want no part of it. If a business can't be successful without fear of being successful. What's the point of taking the risk?

It’s why you had/have lots of ‘Baby Bells’ in the USA and why there’s not a Standard Oil supplying over 90% of the USA’s oil supply anymore.

Those were full fledged monopolies that abused their power. Where has Apple done something to merit this treatment? They are not even a monopoly.

We’re going to have to agree to disagree, I suspect.

This is fine.

Personally, I probably won’t install a rival AppStore - but I think I’m going to enjoy seeing a reinvigorated App Store that will have to compete with other services.

What you and anyone else in the EU will see is a mess. Either Apple will figure out some way to avoid most of this. They will alter the iOS enough to shield themselves from the worse of what can happen on their platform. Or they sell basic devices in the EU and let them eat cake. But, find your own spoon, and napkin. Sideload it up, but we only offer updates to the OS. If your app breaks this, oh well.

I’ll probably stick with iCloud. But I’m going to enjoy seeing a choice of cloud providers in the iOS set up sequence & enjoy the new faster rate of development in Apple’s services when Apple is forced to better compete here.

Can you not use Google? Or Microsoft? Or store your stuff locally at home?

I’m going to enjoy Apple Music getting better faster when it doesn’t have the advantages it has today re being the solely promoted service in iOS.

Spotify, Amazon Music, Tidal, Qobuz. I've literally used all of them. I subscribed to all of them, and still have 3 on this list PLUS Apple Music. I like Hi-Res audio.

I’m going to enjoy Apple fighting for mindshare re it’s services and fighting harder than it currently does.

I think this is the problem. They did that, and got to successful at it. Hence the problem they have.

As I said in my OP - IMHO, it’s better for Apple (re innovation) and better for consumers.

Pretty sure they do this without anyone else help. They seem to enjoy coming up with new stuff and ways to make peoples lives better. Too bad that people will have less choices going forward.

 

[AppliedMicro]

if the now 3 cell phone companies in the US are any indication of what the long term break-up of AT&T did

You could just as well attribute it to their subsequent (re-) mergers that the created the current state of the big three.
Also, it's not like like monopolists are always offering great service at low costs.

 

[Sf844]

Don’t know if Microsoft needed an App Store. I thought what killed the windows phone was more of a crappy implementation.

More like lack of network effect.

 

[I7guy]

You could just as well attribute it to their subsequent (re-) mergers that the created the current state of the big three.
Also, it's not like like monopolists are always offering great service at low costs.

Well touché for the current state.

 

[dumastudetto]

Consumers want Apple protections.

 

[Tagbert]

Consumers want Apple protections.

optional side loading does not contradict those protections

 

[ct2k7]

Consumers want Apple protections.

What are these Apple protections? Protections from myself? Protection from me downloading an app that is considered controversial?

 

[Tagbert]

What are these Apple protections? Protections from myself? Protection from me downloading an app that is considered controversial?

Nudes, of course

 

[ct2k7]

Nudes, of course

Oh my!

 

[I7guy]

optional side loading does not contradict those protections

It will turn IOS into a garbage dump, imo. Just like having a garbage dump behind a fancy apartment complex, the apartments themselves are fine, but step outside and you know where you are. Some people may not care a garbage dump is behind their house, some may care. But because one may not care, doesn't mean it's a great thing for the apartment complex.

 

[Tagbert]

It will turn IOS into a garbage dump, imo. Just like having a garbage dump behind a fancy apartment complex, the apartments themselves are fine, but step outside and you know where you are. Some people may not care a garbage dump is behind their house, some may care. But because one may not care, doesn't mean it's a great thing for the apartment complex.

Android users can already do side loading but in fact very few do. If Apple is forced to enable it, it will not be a super easy process and no one will do it by accident. It is unlikely to cause the kind of widespread problem you describe.