What exactly do you mean by "bulit better"? The case?
Well, this might be the case for HP and the like, but Apple's offerings are absolutely comparable to consumer machines of these brands when it comes to drive/memory expandability.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Updated Mac Pro Benchmarks and Video of Internals
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
Well, you can actually get an i7 desktop from Dell for $800 now - so, bottom-end quad-core Mac Pro performance, for less than 1/3 the price.
The case is more solid, there's more attention to cooling and airflow (which translates into quieter), usually easier to work on (screwless), better and larger power supply.
I have a similar view of Dell's desktops - the business models are better built than the models found as Best Buy specials.
For laptops, but not for desktops.
The Mini and Imac are a joke for disk expansion - only one drive, and a laptop drive in the Mini. Most consumer machines from other brands are mini-towers with 3 to 5 total disk/disc slots.
Dell and HP entry quad Nehalem systems support 24 GiB of RAM, the quad core Apple supports 8 GiB. Dell octo-core Nehalems support 72 GiB or 192 Gib - Apple's octo maxes at 32 GiB. (And neither Apple supports full tri-channel memory at the max.)
Does anyone know if the Dell boxes use EFI? That could be the cause of Apples issues.
Not sure that I understand this - "EFI" is basically just a different firmware image, and should not materially change the cost of a system.
So, "Apples are more expensive because they use EFI" isn't likely.
I was meaning the RAM differences.
Price is all due to the spiffy
logo on the boxes.
I was meaning the RAM differences.
Price is all due to the spiffy
The memory limitations are all marketing or self imposed limitations and the number of physical slots present on the systems. The X58 platform supports all the DDR3 capacities and the Xeons support any combination of unbuffered/registered and ECC memory.
Of course, the system firmware (BIOS/EFI) can disable support for particular densities. This isn't unreasonable, since a vendor might want to avoid problem calls due to untested memory sizes and combinations.
I suppose that puts you squarely in the "hobbyist" category then, which is not Apple's target market for Mac Pro.
That has nothing to do with any of the statements I've made. You made a claim that there were two types of people who buy MacPros: people who use them to make money and people who buy them as status symbols. I never once talked about Apples target market, I was simply refuting the insulting and blatantly incorrect statement that, if youre not making money with your MacPro, it is an ego purchase.
No. Windows doesn't support EFI at the client level, only the dinosaur called BIOS.
You picked out one sentence in a much longer email which I wrote regarding Apple's target market for the Mac Pro. I'm simply referring to my original point, which is that you are obviously not Apple's target market for the Mac Pro. Apple's target market is not hobbyists or those who wish to buy the biggest and fastest so that they can claim to have the biggest and fastest.
I'm sorry you were so offended by one comment in a much larger email. Perhaps I'll add a third category to the two which were so offensive to you. So there are three types of Mac Pro users -- business users who create wealth with their CPU muscle, "ego" buyers who just want the best without any real "need" to justify the expenditure, and hobbyists like yourself.
I still think that Apple's target market for the Mac Pro are content creators, and (I'm going out on a limb here) don't the vast majority of content creators use their Mac Pros to make money? I mean, how else can you justify that kind of cost?
Also remember that no Lenovo, HP, or Dell comes with Mac OS X.
I can live with that.
I am sure that Apples main target market for the MacPro is indeed people who make money using their computer. I wont speculate on whether or not the vast majority of content creators use MacPros to make money because I have no idea.
However, the cost for a MacPro for some of us can be justified in ways that a lot of people probably cant comprehend. Lets talk about me (it is all about me, isnt it?). I find transitioning to a new computer to be a painful experience. I dont like to do it. When I bought my dual 800 G4 Quicksilver in 2001, it was the absolute top of the line. How could I justify it even though I dont make money with it? Because I planned to keep it for many years. Well, guess what? Im still using it (though, to be fair, I would have replaced it last year if my life werent thrown into turmoil with various things associated with moving across the country). If it were a status symbol, I would have certainly replaced it a long time ago.
When I buy my MacPro, I can justify the expense because I plan to keep the computer for a very long time and because I can afford it. Ego and status dont enter into it. Do I wish it cost less? Of course. Have I been complaining about the price? No. Apple has the right to charge whatever they want. I have the right to spend my money wherever I want. It so happens that I like OS X and I want (need?) a MacPro, so Ill pony up the bucks.
I do object when people make unwarranted blanket assumptions simply because they cant comprehend the reasons why people do what they do. I always feel that its preferable to assume that people might have valid reasons for their decisions, even if they dont seem to make sense.
I certainly wont argue with you on this point.
Consider a 4th category: people whose lives & priorities are different enough from yours so as to be beyond the reach of your imagination.
Ha...looks like you and I had similar thoughts, and we're even arguably in the same demographic. I don't upgrade very often (I can't even relate to people openly wondering if they should replace their 2008 Mac Pro!) and I really don't buy into much of any other mainstream consumer stuff: I drive a modest used car, I don't even own a television, let alone a big screen HDTV. No game console. No library of games or DVDs. The list is endless. One of the few things I've always wanted, and had never before had, was a machine where I was the limiting factor: where I have to work hard to even move the cpu load graph off the bottom line. Like you, I plan to keep this machine for a long, long time.
Moreover, none of my friends or coworkers know about it. Nobody who stops by my house can tell the difference between it and the old G5 Powermac it replaced. I've told my brother, and my son, and I told them both to keep it on the down-low. Well, here I guess I'm telling a few random anonymous members of this forum, too, but I'm not revealing the specs. It's not about ego; it's about giving myself something that I wanted - a rare occurrence.
...and after a quick visit to wikipedia, it looks like my decision has more to do with a mixture of Id and Super-Ego. The Ego, on the other hand "seeks to please the id’s drive in realistic ways that will benefit in the long term rather than bringing grief," which seems to more closely match the nay-sayers in this thread. Edit: no, I take that back. Although there's clearly some Id involved, buying better items less frequently is realistic way to avoid long-term grief. So I guess there is some ego, at least of the Freudian variety.
I just configured a Dell Precision Workstation T7400 - 64bit and compared it to a similar Mac Pro configuration. I believe the T7400 workstations are the previous generation of Xeon chips (X5450) correct?
Here's what I got:
Dual Quad Core Intel X5450 3.0 GHz Xeons (8 cores total)
Windows Vista 64-bit Business Edition
8 GB DDR2 RAM (8 x 1GB)
nVidia Quadro FX1700
16X DVD+/-RW
No Monitor Option
1 x 750GB SATA 3.0Gb/s,7200 RPM Hard Drive
No additional options or software
TOTAL PRICE: $5,817
Compare that to a similarly configured Mac Pro 8-core 2.93 GHz which comes in at $6,099. The Mac Pro costs a whopping $282 more for next generation "Nehalem" architecture, 2 GB less RAM than Dell but DDR3 (Mac) vs. DDR2 (Dell), 110 GB less hard drive space, faster DVD on Mac, not sure about the Quadro FX1700 on the Dell vs. the Mac's Radeon HD4870 (I picked the least expensive 512 MB card offered by Dell).
It doesn't look to me that the Mac Pros are overpriced at all once you factor in that you are getting next generation architecture, Mac OS X, and that beautifully engineered case design for only $282 (5%) more than the Dell.
The Mac Pro doesn't seem overpriced to me.
Here's what I got:
Dual Quad Core Intel X5450 3.0 GHz Xeons (8 cores total)
Windows Vista 64-bit Business Edition
8 GB DDR2 RAM (8 x 1GB)
nVidia Quadro FX1700
16X DVD+/-RW
No Monitor Option
1 x 750GB SATA 3.0Gb/s,7200 RPM Hard Drive
No additional options or software
TOTAL PRICE: $5,817
Compare that to a similarly configured Mac Pro 8-core 2.93 GHz which comes in at $6,099. The Mac Pro costs a whopping $282 more for next generation "Nehalem" architecture, 2 GB less RAM than Dell but DDR3 (Mac) vs. DDR2 (Dell), 110 GB less hard drive space, faster DVD on Mac, not sure about the Quadro FX1700 on the Dell vs. the Mac's Radeon HD4870 (I picked the least expensive 512 MB card offered by Dell).
It doesn't look to me that the Mac Pros are overpriced at all once you factor in that you are getting next generation architecture, Mac OS X, and that beautifully engineered case design for only $282 (5%) more than the Dell.
The Mac Pro doesn't seem overpriced to me.
The $64K question is "What will be the Dell price for the T3500 and T5500, as well as the T7500".
In particular, it looks possible that the T3500 may come in for less than half the price of the quad Mac Pro for a nearly identical configuration.
(The base quad Mac Pro has no fancy stuff that you'd have to "add" to the Dell to come up with an equivalent config. It has 3 GiB of RAM ($84 at Crucial) and a GeForce card ($150 at Apple). The $999 Dell isn't going to need $1000 worth of upgrades to match the quad Apple.)
I paid £3,200 for the Mac pro from a small independant mac shop. This was a week ago and they're telling me that apple are still delaying the delivery. In these times i'm worried that this shop might be going bankrupt. Has anyone else expericenced delivery problems??
You should be using a T5400, not a T7400. The T7400 hits at a higher level of the market than the Mac Pro (most notably, it can go up to 128GB of RAM and has "professional" video card options).
Also don't forget that the Precisions come standard with a 3 year warranty, whereas it's another $250 to add Applecare.
Wait until you see how the new models price out. From the looks of it, a quad-core Mac Pro equivalent T3500 will come in at around $1500. Also, as has already been pointed out, if your main interest is processing power and RAM capacity, an $800 Studio XPS already offers more than a $2500 Mac Pro.
The Radeon is a sub-$200 card, the Quadro is a $400+ card.
The issue isn't the dual processor systems being "overpriced" compared to other companies. It is that they are "overpriced" compared to the previous version and, for some, what the components would cost retail. I'd actually expect the DP Mac Pros to continue to be one of the cheaper options out there. The single core system is considered "overpriced" because you can get the same performance for under half the cost.
I just configured a Dell T5400 (last generation Xeon, not Nehalem) with the following components which are as close as I could get to similar Mac Pro configurations:
DELL T5400 XEON WORKSTATION
2 x Quad Core Intel® Xeon® Processor X5450 (3.00GHz,2X6M L2,1333)
8GB, DDR2 SDRAM FBD Memory, 667MHz, ECC (8 DIMMS)
256MB PCIe x16 nVidia NVS 290, Dual Monitor DVI Capable
16X DVD+/-RW
No Monitor
750GB SATA 3.0Gb/s,7200 RPM Hard Drive
3 year on-site warranty
TOTAL PRICE: $5296
SIMILARLY CONFIGURED MAC PRO
2 x 2.93GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon "Nehalem"
6GB (6x1GB) 1066MHz DDR3 ECC SDRAM
640GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA
ATI Radeon HD 4870 512MB
18x SuperDrive
No Display
AppleCare Protection Plan for Mac Pro
TOTAL PRICE: $6,348
APPLE PREMIUM: ~20%
The Dell is last generation Xeon technology, Mac Pro is the newest "Nehalem" architecture. We'll see how competitive Dell is when they introduce their "Nehalem" systems, and whether the 20% Apple premium will also apply.
The same Mac Pro system with an educational discount is $5,718, only 8% more than a comparably equipped last-generation Dell. The same Mac Pro system with a developer discount is $5,128, or 3% lower than a comparably equipped last-generation Dell.
I could not find any educational discounts for the Dell T5400, and could also not find any developer discounts.
DELL T5400 XEON WORKSTATION
2 x Quad Core Intel® Xeon® Processor X5450 (3.00GHz,2X6M L2,1333)
8GB, DDR2 SDRAM FBD Memory, 667MHz, ECC (8 DIMMS)
256MB PCIe x16 nVidia NVS 290, Dual Monitor DVI Capable
16X DVD+/-RW
No Monitor
750GB SATA 3.0Gb/s,7200 RPM Hard Drive
3 year on-site warranty
TOTAL PRICE: $5296
SIMILARLY CONFIGURED MAC PRO
2 x 2.93GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon "Nehalem"
6GB (6x1GB) 1066MHz DDR3 ECC SDRAM
640GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA
ATI Radeon HD 4870 512MB
18x SuperDrive
No Display
AppleCare Protection Plan for Mac Pro
TOTAL PRICE: $6,348
APPLE PREMIUM: ~20%
The Dell is last generation Xeon technology, Mac Pro is the newest "Nehalem" architecture. We'll see how competitive Dell is when they introduce their "Nehalem" systems, and whether the 20% Apple premium will also apply.
The same Mac Pro system with an educational discount is $5,718, only 8% more than a comparably equipped last-generation Dell. The same Mac Pro system with a developer discount is $5,128, or 3% lower than a comparably equipped last-generation Dell.
I could not find any educational discounts for the Dell T5400, and could also not find any developer discounts.
It's quiet
My batch of Studio XPS systems are in, and I brought one home to play with.
I got the 2.93 GHz Core i7-940, 12 GiB RAM, 750 GB disk, Radeon HD 4670 512 MiB, Vista Ultimate x64, Blue Tooth, 19-1 media card reader, BD-ROM/DVD-DL writer, 802.11n wireless and an UltraSharp 2408 WFP 24" LCD monitor and 3 year next day onsite service.
...for less than the cost of the quad 2.66 GHz 3 GiB Mac Pro with AppleCare. (A similar quad Mac Pro is $4647, so the Apple tax is more than $2000 (MP 2.93 GHz, 8 GiB, 4870, 24" display, AppleCare 3yr).)
The system is very quiet, with it sitting on the table beside the monitor you can just tell that it's running (as long as the room is quiet - with any music, television or other activity going on you can't hear it). There's a power-on fan whoosh that others have reported, but that's gone as soon as the OS loads.
Pretty soon I'll have the T3500's as well.
My batch of Studio XPS systems are in, and I brought one home to play with.
I got the 2.93 GHz Core i7-940, 12 GiB RAM, 750 GB disk, Radeon HD 4670 512 MiB, Vista Ultimate x64, Blue Tooth, 19-1 media card reader, BD-ROM/DVD-DL writer, 802.11n wireless and an UltraSharp 2408 WFP 24" LCD monitor and 3 year next day onsite service.
...for less than the cost of the quad 2.66 GHz 3 GiB Mac Pro with AppleCare. (A similar quad Mac Pro is $4647, so the Apple tax is more than $2000 (MP 2.93 GHz, 8 GiB, 4870, 24" display, AppleCare 3yr).)
The system is very quiet, with it sitting on the table beside the monitor you can just tell that it's running (as long as the room is quiet - with any music, television or other activity going on you can't hear it). There's a power-on fan whoosh that others have reported, but that's gone as soon as the OS loads.
Pretty soon I'll have the T3500's as well.
I have been following this tread since the beginning and I wanted see what a 2x 2.93 Dell cost in comparison to the mac and I did not see a huge difference in price.
The T5500 that I was looking at was $6790 for the 2x 2.93. Now I am sure that the video card options blows away the Apple's but I was expecting it to be much less. If I am missing a model please let me know because the Mac Pro is not looking so over priced (in comparison to the competition) to me anymore.
The T5500 that I was looking at was $6790 for the 2x 2.93. Now I am sure that the video card options blows away the Apple's but I was expecting it to be much less. If I am missing a model please let me know because the Mac Pro is not looking so over priced (in comparison to the competition) to me anymore.