Updated Mac Pro Benchmarks and Video of Internals

[Eidorian]

Sorry, but Ballmer is Satan in disguise. Not to mention that he just repeated once again a tired old quote that's been thrown around by The Other Side since the mid '80s. The different (better) OS aside, the fact remains that Macs and PCs aren't always the "same piece of hardware". Depending on the manufacturer, some PCs use higher-quality components and some use the cheapest Chinese crap. I also love how Microsoft fanboys will say, "Oh it's the same hardware, just more expensive" whenever they're comparing prices, but in other debates, they turn around and say "Apple's build quality is horrible", "all their laptops have overheating issues", "Apple's laptop batteries explode and catch fire", "the MacBook Pros have bad graphics cards," blah blah blah.

Just like Apple does.

 

[diamond.g]

Sorry, but Ballmer is Satan in disguise. Not to mention that he just repeated once again a tired old quote that's been thrown around by The Other Side since the mid '80s. The different (better) OS aside, the fact remains that Macs and PCs aren't always the "same piece of hardware". Depending on the manufacturer, some PCs use higher-quality components and some use the cheapest Chinese crap. I also love how Microsoft fanboys will say, "Oh it's the same hardware, just more expensive" whenever they're comparing prices, but in other debates, they turn around and say "Apple's build quality is horrible", "all their laptops have overheating issues", "Apple's laptop batteries explode and catch fire", "the MacBook Pros have bad graphics cards," blah blah blah.

Not a MS fanboy (by any means) but the bolded statements can still be true, even if they indicate the opposite. Why? Cause Apple takes those same Intel chips and stuffs them in a small enclosure. Whereas Dell/Gateway/etc don't (well didn't they seem to be trying it out since Apple has been so popular with the idea). So Apples systems (aside from the Mac Pro) "overheat" (to me they are well within tolerances) when being pushed while the Dell doesn't.

 

[DeepCobalt]

Actually, I've been up to Redmond several times, and many developers there have Mac Pros running Windows--they feel Apple has optimized hardware.

 

[AidenShaw]

(duplicate, please delete)

 

[AidenShaw]

Sorry, but Ballmer is Satan in disguise.

Wow, did the devil make you say that?

Ballmer's big mouth is good for Microsoft
March 23, 2009 3:39 PM PDT

Steve Ballmer likes to mix it up in interviews. And although some don't like how forthright he is, Don Reisinger contends that it's hard to argue with what he says.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-10201879-17.html

In the story, it says:

Does Steve Ballmer have a big mouth? I'm sure Bill Gates has cringed at what his buddy said more than once. But he says what he believes (or at least appears to).

And he's only telling us what we already know: Windows Mobile is in desperate need of a meaningful update; Windows Vista is a bloated mess that Microsoft can't salvage; Mac OS X isn't a credible threat to Windows; Apple charges much more for its computers than most of us think necessary; and Microsoft is a successful company.

What's so bad about any of that? It might hurt the feelings of Apple (and Linux) fans, but it's the truth.

 

[mjteix]

By the time you get to anything useful with the Lenovos, they're nowhere near $1500. They start out with 1.86Ghz cpu's, 1GB RAM, NVS series graphics, etc. They'll easily run you as much as a Mac Pro by the time you spec it out similarly. At least that was the case when comparing them to the previous gen MP. Lenovo's pricing and specs have yet to be updated on their site for the new Xeons.

What does make Lenovo (and HP for that matter) attractive is that they sell Core Duo (and presumably will sell regular i7) based workstations for far less, which Apple of course, does not.

Things change. We will have to wait and see the full pricing. While Lenovo may not change what they used to do in terms of pricing policy (I agree that fully configured their workstations can cost a lot), Apple has changed theirs. I'm not saying that Lenovo in particular has better offerings than Apple, just that soon we will be able to compare the new Mac Pro to equivalent workstations from other manufacturers.

FWIW, you can find the latest benchmarks of the new Mac Pro from MacWorld here. IMO, there's nothing spectacular about the new $3299 octo 2.26GHz Mac Pro. The single quad 2.66GHz looks better despite its high price and RAM limitation. It is still my opinion that the new Mac Pros are overpriced (all of them), and the fact that Lenovo can offer base prices as low as $1,000/$1,500 for the same platforms, just reinforces the feeling.

It’s harder to recommend that people spend $800 more for the new $3,299 2.26GHz eight-core Mac Pro if they don’t run software written for the top-of-the-line Mac Pro’s eight processor cores. Though the 2.26GHz model was faster at most individual tasks than the previous eightcore 2.8GHz Mac Pro, and very fast in a few of our professional applications tests, it was slower than the new quad-core model at the majority of our application tests.

 

[awulf]

I have had many hardware related issues with Apple laptops.

I had an iBook G4 1.33GHz (latest generation) when I pulled it out of its box it was slightly bent, so I brought it back to the Apple store, where they said its not functionally broken, so its fine. Then after a month a CD got stuck, and I brought it back there, so they decided to send it off for repairs. About a week later I got a phone call saying they wont fix it because it was physically damaged, I yelled over the phone and they decided to fix it. Turned out the logic board, combo drive and a metal beam was broken and hence replaced. 5 months later the iBook kept kernel panicking, due to the AirPort card. Sent it in AirPort card and logic board were replaced. 4 months later again, same issue, was sent back in and got a new logic board. 3 months later out of warranty happened again, but wasn’t covered under warranty so couldn’t do anything about it. Turned out that that model of iBook had a design flaw where the chips and sockets would come off the logic board.

My current MacBook Pro 2.2GHz (LED) was sent in twice for a new LCD because they kept getting white spots all over, my guess is that the logic board is sending the LCD too much power or something. Now its out of warranty its happening again and also the optical drive is malfunctioning. I have been careful with this laptop, it sill looks like new. Also it once screen turned off in a game, probably due to the commonly faulty Nvida 8600M inside it.

Most people I know who have a Mac laptop have had problems with theirs too. So they are definitely not reliable in my eyes.

My old PowerBook 100 is still running strongly though

 

[drsmithy]

Why get a tower unless you're going to open and routinely change the internals? You get a tower for one of two reasons; you need the expandability because your work load is going to rapidly increase over the lifetime of the computer thus you want to maximise its life OR you see it as a massive ego boost by owning one.

Or you have enough hardware that it won't fit into an iMac. Like, say, four hard disks, 3-4 expansion cards, two CPUs and 8 memory DIMMs.

You could buy a machine configured like that from day one and never open it again for 3 years, but you still need a large case to fit it into.

(To say nothing of being able to keep it cool, quietly.)

Again, unless you fit into the first category, why would you need a tower? hence the whole xMac arguments I see are stupid.

The 'xMac' requests are for a machine that's basically half a Mac Pro. So, 2 hard disks, two expansion cards, 4-6 DIMM slots and a single CPU, plus cooling ability.

That's not going to fit into an iMac.


This is also before covering the other obvious advantages, like not being tethered to a particular screen, and the better price/performance of non-laptop components.

 

[mangis]

I just can't stop giggling.

New Mac Pro arrived yesterday - - upgrade from 2002 Dual 1 Ghz Quicksilver.

Oh, the speed!

I thought I learned my lesson waiting 7 years from 1992 to 1999 going from a powerbook 160 to a G3 powerbook.

Remind me never to wait 7 years again to upgrade. The feeling of the power!

Also, can't sleep, just on computer all the time.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

 

[DoFoT9]

I just can't stop giggling.

New Mac Pro arrived yesterday - - upgrade from 2002 Dual 1 Ghz Quicksilver.

Oh, the speed!

I thought I learned my lesson waiting 7 years from 1992 to 1999 going from a powerbook 160 to a G3 powerbook.

Remind me never to wait 7 years again to upgrade. The feeling of the power!

Also, can't sleep, just on computer all the time.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

jealous!!

pretty sure you need to upgrade your Sig.

 

[AidenShaw]

Dell Nehalem workstations announced

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-10203540-92.html?tag=mncol

Dell is attempting to gain some ground in the server market, which is dominated by Hewlett-Packard and IBM. In order to grab a larger piece of the data center pie, the company has shoveled everything together into one announcement. And it's a big one.
There are 14 new products altogether: new Dell M-series blade servers, 11th-generation PowerEdge servers, Precision workstations, EqualLogic PS6000 storage arrays, and a host of revamped services.
...

No details yet, so keep watching to see if the Mac Pro looks crippled and/or overpriced next to the Dell, or whether it turns out to be a good value.


update:

http://www.engadget.com/tag/Nehalem/

An industry source has sent along information and images for a trio of new Dell Precision workstations using Intel's Nehalem architecture.

The T3500 (starts at $999) sports up to 24GB DDR3 ECC memory.

Just above that, we've got the T5500 (starts at $1,620) with up to 72GB of memory and dual socket Intel Xeon.

Meanwhile, granddaddy T7500 (pictured; starts at $1,800) boasts 192GB of three-channel DDR3 ECC memory up to 1066 or 1333MHz, dual native Gen 2 PCIe graphics slots and supports NVIDIA SLI technology.

All models feature an E-SATA port, up to 1.5TB SATA HDD, dual / quad monitor support, DisplayPort connectors, and for those trying to keep some assemblance of eco friendliness, these are all Energy Star 5.0 compliant.

Guess we go with crippled *and* overpriced.

My guess would be that the T3500 is the Xeon 3500 in Dell's mid-tower case, with 6 RAM slots. T5500 would be a pair of Xeon 5500s in the mid-tower, and the T7500 a pair of Xeon 5500s in Dell's maxi-tower. Interesting memory limits, though, for the dual socket systems....

T3500 - six RAM slots, one socket (air baffle on/off)

 

[azentropy]

HP released their consumer desktops with the i7...
HP Pavilion Elite m9600t series

Starting at $949, again showing either what a poor value the entry MacPro is or the huge hole Apple has in their lineup.

 

[Umbongo]

No details yet, so keep watching to see if the Mac Pro looks crippled and/or overpriced next to the Dell, or whether it turns out to be a good value.

update:

Guess we go with crippled *and* overpriced.

I kind of want to be a dick and quote all those people that said the Dell single quad core workstations would be really expensive because they were "workstations". Seems they are a little bit more than the consumer boxes.

 

[Tallest Skil]

HP released their consumer desktops with the i7...
HP Pavilion Elite m9600t series

Completely different market, completely different concept, rendering your point moot.

Starting at $949, again showing either what a poor value the entry MacPro is or the huge hole Apple has in their lineup.

Shut up about the xMac already.

Know what the xMac is? Honestly, do you want to know what the xMac is to Apple?

The quad core Mac Pro is the Apple-made xMac. The quad core is what they have given us as the xMac.

"But it's $1,000 more than we wanted!"

Apple couldn't care less what we want. This is what they have given us.

 

[NightSailor]

Wow. Now I am extremely happy with my 2.8 8-Core. It was cheaper too. haha

I agree. I'm very happy with my 2008 3.2GHz. My next upgrade is a SSD drive. I think that will make my machine snappier than any new one.

 

[AidenShaw]

Completely different market,

...and a large market in which Apple has no products to sell.


The new Nehalem Precision Workstations aren't on the Dell site yet - it is possible that they won't appear for sale until after the formal Intel announcement of the 3500/5500.

 

[Umbongo]

Interesting memory limits, though, for the dual socket systems....

The 72GB one is interesting as that would suggest, if correct, that the T5500 has 3 memory slots for one processor and 6 for the other.

 

[pohl]

sour grapes posts only

I just can't stop giggling.

New Mac Pro arrived yesterday - - upgrade from 2002 Dual 1 Ghz Quicksilver.

Oh, the speed!

Whoa, cowboy. What are you doing expressing joy about your 2009 Mac Pro in a thread that's clearly designated as a piss & moan zone!?

Congratulations, though. Mine came a week ago and I am in heaven: vast, untapped resources...just how I like it. (I upgraded from a 2Ghz dual-core G5)

Also, can't sleep, just on computer all the time.

Same here. This is the first machine I've ever had that was more than being merely adequate. It is bliss.

 

[BenRoethig]

I kind of want to be a dick and quote all those people that said the Dell single quad core workstations would be really expensive because they were "workstations". Seems they are a little bit more than the consumer boxes.

First, they were saying that because in their minds there was no way Apple could be possibly be gouging customers like.

Second, are you a bit surprised? The only difference in manufacturing cost between an i7 system and a Xeon 3500 system is the ECC memory. Of course Apple's case is going to cost more to produce (but not that much more than the as low as $1299 PMG5 it was based on), they could be using the 36D chipset instead of the 36S, and they might be using the same ~1000W power supply rather than a cheaper one with less capacity, but the numbers still don't add up without unheard of margins being factored in. It really looks like the pricing is designed to make the make lineup nice and tidy with no overlap.

 

[Umbongo]

First, they were saying that because in their minds there was no way Apple could be possibly be gouging customers like.

Second, are you a bit surprised? The only difference in manufacturing cost between an i7 system and a Xeon 3500 system is the ECC memory. Of course Apple's case is going to cost more to produce (but not that much more than the as low as $1299 PMG5 it was based on), they could be using the 36D chipset instead of the 36S, and they might be using the same ~1000W power supply rather than a cheaper one with less capacity, but the numbers still don't add up without unheard of margins being factored in.

No I'm not suprised, but on the other hand I wouldn't have been suprised to see a T3500 configured like a quad Mac Pro to close in on $2,000. The T3400s with similar last-gen components got close. I'm sure the T3500 will have lower power PSUs and expensive CPU, memory and storage options but for those pure price arguments it is sure to win out.

You are correct in the Mac Pro chassis and power supply stuff, the Mac pros are the same just with different daughter boards plugged in which means it is probably cheaper for Apple to do than offer different PSUs anyway.

It really looks like the pricing is designed to make the make lineup nice and tidy with no overlap.

Absolutely. If you look at Apple's computers alone then the line up is smooth and balanced. It's when you know how much parts cost and look at competitors who let you choose from a full range of products, components and configuration choices that it looks bizarre.

 

[polaris20]

No details yet, so keep watching to see if the Mac Pro looks crippled and/or overpriced next to the Dell, or whether it turns out to be a good value.


update:



Guess we go with crippled *and* overpriced.

My guess would be that the T3500 is the Xeon 3500 in Dell's mid-tower case, with 6 RAM slots. T5500 would be a pair of Xeon 5500s in the mid-tower, and the T7500 a pair of Xeon 5500s in Dell's maxi-tower. Interesting memory limits, though, for the dual socket systems....

T3500 - six RAM slots, one socket (air baffle on/off)

A current T5400 (up to 32GB RAM, 8-core) equipped as such, as similar to an Octo 2.26Ghz:

PROCESSOR Quad Core Intel® Xeon® Processor E5440 (2.83GHz,2X6M L2,1333) edit
OPERATING SYSTEM Genuine Windows Vista® Business Bonus-Windows XP Professional downgrade edit
2ND PROCESSOR Quad Core Intel® Xeon® Processor E5440 (2.83GHz,2X6M L2,1333) edit
WARRANTY & SERVICE 3 Year Limited Hardware Warranty with Next Business Day On-Site Service edit
VIDEO CARD 256MB PCIe x16 nVidia Quadro FX570, Dual Monitor DVI Capable edit
CHASSIS CONFIGURATION AND 1394 Mini-Tower Chassis Configuration edit
MEMORY 4GB, DDR2 SDRAM FBD Memory, 667MHz, ECC (4 DIMMS) edit
OPTICAL DRIVE 16X DVD+/-RW w/ Cyberlink PowerDVD™ and Roxio Creator™ Dell Ed edit
RAID CONFIGURATION C1 All SATA drives, Non-RAID, 1 drive total configuration edit
HARD DRIVE 750GB SATA 3.0Gb/s,7200 RPM Hard Drive with 16MB DataBurst Cache™ edit
MONITOR Dell 19 inch™ E1909W Widescreen Flat Panel edit
SYSTEM DOCUMENTATION Resource DVD - Contains Diagnostics and Drivers

Sorry about the garbled text, it's a cut and paste.

$4133.

The supposed "starting at" prices are BS for Dell, Lenovo, and HP. By the time you get to something comparable, it's not that great of a deal.

I'm not saying Apple still isn't overpriced in some areas, but the others aren't cheap either.

Also, Apple really doesn't offer anything equivalent to the 7500 or 3500. The quad is still quite a bit high for Apple. It's basically an HP XW4600 for a grand more (XW4600 is a quad, single socket, 8GB max RAM, ~$1500).

In my opinion, the quad MP really should be about $1800-$2000, to bring it in line with HP but with the infamous "Apple tax".

EDIT A current T3400 comes in at about $1600-$1700 (2.66Ghz quad, 2GB RAM, 750GB HD) so it would make sense for Apple's 2.66Ghz quad to run $2000 or so.

Also, something that really does irritate me with the new MP, though it's not a deal breaker, is the fact that no Quadros are being offered. I could have sworn the last gen was available with a FX5600, which is a nice card.

 

[Eidorian]

A current T5400 (up to 32GB RAM, 8-core) equipped as such, as similar to an Octo 2.26Ghz:

PROCESSOR Quad Core Intel® Xeon® Processor E5440 (2.83GHz,2X6M L2,1333) edit
OPERATING SYSTEM Genuine Windows Vista® Business Bonus-Windows XP Professional downgrade edit
2ND PROCESSOR Quad Core Intel® Xeon® Processor E5440 (2.83GHz,2X6M L2,1333) edit
WARRANTY & SERVICE 3 Year Limited Hardware Warranty with Next Business Day On-Site Service edit
VIDEO CARD 256MB PCIe x16 nVidia Quadro FX570, Dual Monitor DVI Capable edit
CHASSIS CONFIGURATION AND 1394 Mini-Tower Chassis Configuration edit
MEMORY 4GB, DDR2 SDRAM FBD Memory, 667MHz, ECC (4 DIMMS) edit
OPTICAL DRIVE 16X DVD+/-RW w/ Cyberlink PowerDVD™ and Roxio Creator™ Dell Ed edit
RAID CONFIGURATION C1 All SATA drives, Non-RAID, 1 drive total configuration edit
HARD DRIVE 750GB SATA 3.0Gb/s,7200 RPM Hard Drive with 16MB DataBurst Cache™ edit
MONITOR Dell 19 inch™ E1909W Widescreen Flat Panel edit
SYSTEM DOCUMENTATION Resource DVD - Contains Diagnostics and Drivers

Sorry about the garbled text, it's a cut and paste.

$4133.

The supposed "starting at" prices are BS for Dell, Lenovo, and HP. By the time you get to something comparable, it's not that great of a deal.

I'm not saying Apple still isn't overpriced in some areas, but the others aren't cheap either.

Also, Apple really doesn't offer anything equivalent to the 7500 or 3500. The quad is still quite a bit high for Apple. It's basically an HP XW4600 for a grand more (XW4600 is a quad, single socket, 8GB max RAM, ~$1500).

Upgrading to the dual/socket style processors like the Mac Pro on a lower end Dell/HP is always what ends up being the problem. The upgrade costs are outrageous but the ridiculously low entry price means everyone can have an awesome i7 system starting off at around ~US$1,000.

It boggles my mind how Apple can sell a mobile Core 2 Duo in a desktop for more than $700 and that people actually buy it. I love my MacBook to death and all but it's nonetheless amazing.

 

[polaris20]

Upgrading to the dual/socket style processors like the Mac Pro on a lower end Dell/HP is always what ends up being the problem. The upgrade costs are outrageous but the ridiculously low entry price means everyone can have an awesome i7 system starting off at around ~US$1,000.

It boggles my mind how Apple can sell a mobile Core 2 Duo in a desktop for more than $700 and that people actually buy it. I love my MacBook to death and all but it's nonetheless amazing.

When you say $1000 for a Dell/HP, I don't think you're making accurate comparisons though.

While it's true you can get an i7 desktop for $1000, the workstation series from Dell (T3500) and from HP (whatever replaces the XW4600) will be around $1400-$1500 similarly equipped to the quad Apple. This is a guestimate based upon what we're currently paying for the XW4600's, and what we've priced the current T3400's at.

That doesn't mean the quad isn't still grossly overpriced, it's just that the difference is a grand, not $1500.

 

[Eidorian]

When you say $1000 for a Dell/HP, I don't think you're making accurate comparisons though.

While it's true you can get an i7 desktop for $1000, the workstation series from Dell (T3500) and from HP (whatever replaces the XW4600) will be around $1400-$1500 similarly equipped to the quad Apple. This is a guestimate based upon what we're currently paying for the XW4600's, and what we've priced the current T3400's at.

That doesn't mean the quad isn't still grossly overpriced, it's just that the difference is a grand, not $1500.

I think we're drawing the line at non-ECC and ECC support for calling it a workstation or not?

Considering the venerable Power Mac G4 and G5 and their memory support...

 

[polaris20]

I think we're drawing the line at non-ECC and ECC support for calling it a workstation or not?

Not exactly. While the XW4600's are indeed ECC, they're specifically classified as workstations by HP, and as such are built better than the DC series desktop line, generally are more expandable in terms of drives/memory.

I guess it's a blurry line, but that's what I am going by. For instance, an XW4600 with a 2.83Ghz Core 2 Quad, 3GB of RAM, 500GB HD, and an FX560 graphics is $1788.

The DC7900 series would be their upper end "desktop" segment, and Apple just doesn't want to play in that area, for whatever reason.

Maybe I'm snobby with this stuff because of years in IT, but I just refuse to compare Apple stuff to consumer-grade HP/Dell etc., because generally I find it to be built for crap. Their business lines are much more comparable, as is the service.