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Upgrade Potential of the PowerMac G5?
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gotohamish
macrumors 65816
Was she drunk at the time? It always seems that they are when rumors/jokes come out like this... 😉 😛 😀
hvfsl
macrumors 68000
Re: Possible solution for upgrades
I don't think the PCI-X bus is as fast as the PPC970's at 1Ghz, although I do know PCI-X is faster than AGP 8x, so it would be better to get PCI-X graphics cards in future. I think ATI is bringing one out soon. PCI-X is meant to replace both PCI and AGP, maybe Apple will get rid of AGP in rev 2.
Someone could now do a AMD chip on a PCI-X card so that we can have a PC and Mac in one, like the old performa 630. If the card had a AMD 3000XP on it, then it should be as fast as a 3000XP PC.
I don't think the PCI-X bus is as fast as the PPC970's at 1Ghz, although I do know PCI-X is faster than AGP 8x, so it would be better to get PCI-X graphics cards in future. I think ATI is bringing one out soon. PCI-X is meant to replace both PCI and AGP, maybe Apple will get rid of AGP in rev 2.
Someone could now do a AMD chip on a PCI-X card so that we can have a PC and Mac in one, like the old performa 630. If the card had a AMD 3000XP on it, then it should be as fast as a 3000XP PC.
Dont Hurt Me
macrumors 603
fixyourthinking
macrumors 6502a
Possible solution for upgrades/Upgrades are great!
But that's you of course. A lot of machines are a MUCH better value if you upgrade them. Some machines that had unique enclosures or unique features can remain useable and valueable with upgrades. (IE Cube, Pismo PowerBook, 20th Anniversary Mac, the G3 All In One)
Now upgrading a 6100 7100 8100 2 years ago was an ok idea, but kinda "gumpish" because of the lack of new Nubus cards.
I was really happy to hear of the 1 GHz ZIF G4's from Sonnet for my AIO. iMacs almost fall into this category. Certainly the original 233's do as they have infrared for Palm Sync on them and have tray loading drives that can be replaced with combo or DVD-R/CDRW drives.
But that's you of course. A lot of machines are a MUCH better value if you upgrade them. Some machines that had unique enclosures or unique features can remain useable and valueable with upgrades. (IE Cube, Pismo PowerBook, 20th Anniversary Mac, the G3 All In One)
Now upgrading a 6100 7100 8100 2 years ago was an ok idea, but kinda "gumpish" because of the lack of new Nubus cards.
I was really happy to hear of the 1 GHz ZIF G4's from Sonnet for my AIO. iMacs almost fall into this category. Certainly the original 233's do as they have infrared for Palm Sync on them and have tray loading drives that can be replaced with combo or DVD-R/CDRW drives.
Arcady
macrumors 6502
I'm more interested in seeing how the upgrade companies deal with the G5 on older systems, if they even can. It took them ages to get a G4 upgrade out for Macs like the beige and blue G3's, and at least those things had bus speeds fairly close to the "real" G4 systems. Would a G5 on a 133-167mhz bus even be worth the effort? I was seriously considering putting a 1.4ghz G4 in my Quicksilver before the G5's were announced, but at $600-700, that option makes no sense now. Selling the box and buying a low-end G5 comes out to just about the same amount. And I get audio in, the cool optical connections, firewire 800, a better graphics card, and more as a bonus. The upgrade companies are really going to have to scramble to make some faster upgrades, or lower their prices by around 50%, to stay in business.
fixyourthinking
macrumors 6502a
The way they'll be fixed
From what I know there will be an extensive series of tests a tech will do. They will be instructed to remove ALL storage components, = optical drive, memory, HD - test them and send the unit in advance exchange if the unit is bad. A replacement would come 2 day Airborne as soon as the tech scanned the Airbill for the exchange. The tech will then replace the storage components in the "new/replacement" unit - some iMac G4 repairs are done this way, as are Alumibooks now.
From what I know there will be an extensive series of tests a tech will do. They will be instructed to remove ALL storage components, = optical drive, memory, HD - test them and send the unit in advance exchange if the unit is bad. A replacement would come 2 day Airborne as soon as the tech scanned the Airbill for the exchange. The tech will then replace the storage components in the "new/replacement" unit - some iMac G4 repairs are done this way, as are Alumibooks now.
I think this is nonsense. The G5 may not be upgradeable, but it isn't because of the cooling. As someone said earlier, it just isn't that hard. The only things that might need to be calibrated are the temperature sensors in the case, and that's neither difficult nor particularly important. The processor, fans, and board do not need to be tuned as a unit. That's why people invented digital processing and feedback control.
Sayer
macrumors 6502a
So what else is new with Apple?
If you want to hot rod your rig stop whining about what Apple is doing with its own hardware designs (the nerve of Apple designing an integrated hardware system!) and get an AMD box and put RedHat on it and shut up already.
Most of you seem to get all woozy running GIMP and other crap on OS X with X11, so it won't be any different running Linux.
Plus the hardware of the G5 finally meets up with the Wintel world in specs and performance.
But if that's not good enough you can get a Wintel box with as many expansion bays as you think you need in any color you want and throw in any hardware you an afford.
If its so damn bad being a Mac user get something else and stop whining about what Apple does with its own OS and hardware. Apple is copying XP more and more with each new release of OS X, X11 does the same things on Linux and the hardware is now spec'd to match Wintel.
The only difference is the logo on the outside of the box and the price at this point.
If you want to hot rod your rig stop whining about what Apple is doing with its own hardware designs (the nerve of Apple designing an integrated hardware system!) and get an AMD box and put RedHat on it and shut up already.
Most of you seem to get all woozy running GIMP and other crap on OS X with X11, so it won't be any different running Linux.
Plus the hardware of the G5 finally meets up with the Wintel world in specs and performance.
But if that's not good enough you can get a Wintel box with as many expansion bays as you think you need in any color you want and throw in any hardware you an afford.
If its so damn bad being a Mac user get something else and stop whining about what Apple does with its own OS and hardware. Apple is copying XP more and more with each new release of OS X, X11 does the same things on Linux and the hardware is now spec'd to match Wintel.
The only difference is the logo on the outside of the box and the price at this point.
Centris 650
macrumors 6502a
I have to say that this rumor has caused me to pause in my purchase. I was waiting (though I didn't want to wait) for the RevB. I'll continue to watch this rumor.
kansast
macrumors member
Regarding 3GZ by December
Wasn't there a story floating around just before the WWDC that IBM was reported as saying they expected much faster CPUs by the end of the year ?
At the time we didn't know if they meant the not as of yet announced G5s or something after the soon to be announced G5s
At any rate, hoping to get one of the new 1.8Ghz models at work once they start shipping.
Wasn't there a story floating around just before the WWDC that IBM was reported as saying they expected much faster CPUs by the end of the year ?
At the time we didn't know if they meant the not as of yet announced G5s or something after the soon to be announced G5s
At any rate, hoping to get one of the new 1.8Ghz models at work once they start shipping.
Re: Re: Possible solution for upgrades
How many frickin' times does it have to be explained?
PCI-X is not PCI Express.
PCI-X in the new PowerMacs has one slot with 1GB/s of bandwidth, and 2 slots sharing 800MB/s of bandwidth. The chip used is the AMD 8131 dual PCI-X Hypertransport tunnel.
AGP8x is 2GB/s of bandwidth.
PCI-Express x16 is what you were thinking of regarding faster than AGP8x, as it runs at 4GB/s (or 8GB/s, I forget which). It will be appearing on motherboards late this year/early next year.
How many frickin' times does it have to be explained?
PCI-X is not PCI Express.
PCI-X in the new PowerMacs has one slot with 1GB/s of bandwidth, and 2 slots sharing 800MB/s of bandwidth. The chip used is the AMD 8131 dual PCI-X Hypertransport tunnel.
AGP8x is 2GB/s of bandwidth.
PCI-Express x16 is what you were thinking of regarding faster than AGP8x, as it runs at 4GB/s (or 8GB/s, I forget which). It will be appearing on motherboards late this year/early next year.
Mr. Anderson
Moderator emeritus
I got the Rev A. version of the G4 (450 MHz) and I went to look at upgrading to a dual cpu card but the machine isn't capable of handling it. So, this doesn't surprise me at all.
It really won't change my plans on purchasing a dual 2.0 GHz G5 either. I've had the G4 for almost 4 years, it did its job and now its time for a new machine.
D 😀
It really won't change my plans on purchasing a dual 2.0 GHz G5 either. I've had the G4 for almost 4 years, it did its job and now its time for a new machine.
D 😀
jayscheuerle
macrumors 68020
These heat issues
kind of make you wonder about the veracity of the cool running G5 rumors. Perhaps this chip isn't as ready to go portable as some have reported.
bd
kind of make you wonder about the veracity of the cool running G5 rumors. Perhaps this chip isn't as ready to go portable as some have reported.
bd
fixyourthinking
macrumors 6502a
Delaying your decision is nonsense
First, it's not a rumor. It's pretty much a fact. But this unit has nothing unique to it. If you want to upgrade, buy another machine. By the time you sold the 1st Gen G5 and paid the difference for the new one - you'd be VERY close to the upgrade cost.
The most ridiculous thing I experience when someone upgrades a machine is that they don't upgrade on the whole component level. When upgrading, if you also don't upgrade the hard drive and the memory, you are making a mistake. By the time you pay for all of that, you have a new machine (after a little eBaying of course)
For certain machines (as I posted earlier) upgrades make a lot of sense. (Cube, Pismo, iMac, AIO) - I'll even add one, the Mac TV, it can be upgraded to a PowerPC.
Most upgrade PCI/Nubus cards and high end software are incompatible with upgrades anyway, so what's the point?
These are great machines (G5) - there should be no hesitation in your purchase. However, I would wait for the second generation and then buy out of the middle (which is usually the 1st generation's high end) - not only do you save money but you get the bugs worked out. And by that time you'll have an optimized OS.
First, it's not a rumor. It's pretty much a fact. But this unit has nothing unique to it. If you want to upgrade, buy another machine. By the time you sold the 1st Gen G5 and paid the difference for the new one - you'd be VERY close to the upgrade cost.
The most ridiculous thing I experience when someone upgrades a machine is that they don't upgrade on the whole component level. When upgrading, if you also don't upgrade the hard drive and the memory, you are making a mistake. By the time you pay for all of that, you have a new machine (after a little eBaying of course)
For certain machines (as I posted earlier) upgrades make a lot of sense. (Cube, Pismo, iMac, AIO) - I'll even add one, the Mac TV, it can be upgraded to a PowerPC.
Most upgrade PCI/Nubus cards and high end software are incompatible with upgrades anyway, so what's the point?
These are great machines (G5) - there should be no hesitation in your purchase. However, I would wait for the second generation and then buy out of the middle (which is usually the 1st generation's high end) - not only do you save money but you get the bugs worked out. And by that time you'll have an optimized OS.
Steamboatwillie
macrumors regular
I don't buy it
Seems bogus to me. On my PC (Don't kill me I have a Mac too) I have a $29.00 fan on my cpu that came with a sensor. When the CPU temp rises so does the RMP of the fan, ditto once it cools down. Works perfectly. I don't buy it for a second that "The Fastest Computer in the World" with all it's fancy whiz bang features can't deal with temp swings in the processor. I refuse to accept that all of Apple's excellent engineering dropped the ball on something so trivial as a temp sensor.
If indeed this is the case, which I really really doubt, not to worry. I know where you can get $29.00 fans that will do the trick!
Seems bogus to me. On my PC (Don't kill me I have a Mac too) I have a $29.00 fan on my cpu that came with a sensor. When the CPU temp rises so does the RMP of the fan, ditto once it cools down. Works perfectly. I don't buy it for a second that "The Fastest Computer in the World" with all it's fancy whiz bang features can't deal with temp swings in the processor. I refuse to accept that all of Apple's excellent engineering dropped the ball on something so trivial as a temp sensor.
If indeed this is the case, which I really really doubt, not to worry. I know where you can get $29.00 fans that will do the trick!
I say who cares? Now that it's become so easy to sell old macs on ebay for very high prices, that is a much more sensical upgrade strategy.
The main problem..
..that I see with upgrading the G5's is the front-side bus (FSB). In x86 PC's, each class of processors (Pentium4, AthlonXP, ...) all have the same speed FSB (400MHz, 533MHz, 800Mhz) for a number of different processor speeds. In the case of the G5, each processor has a different speed FSB. This is a problem. Motherboards are rated to support a certain maximum speed FSB. You cannot run an 800MHz FSB Pentium4 on the 533MHz motherboards. Some, however, are able to be overclocked to support the new FSB. For instance, eventhough Intel rated all of its 533MHz FSB motherboards to run at 533MHz, some of them can, in fact, run at 800MHz. Most of then will run at 600 or something, but a few can do 800. I'm sure Apple is doing the same with it's motherboards. It's called binning. They "bin" the motherboards according to how fast they can clock the FSB. The 1.6GHz motherboards (with an 800MHz FBS) will be the ones that can only do 800MHz. The 1.8GHz can pull 900 and so on. So, if you get a 1.6GHz G5, it will come with a motherboard that is rated to do 800MHz. It could possibly do 900Mhz (that's only a 12.5% speed bump) rather stable, but it's not likely to do 1Ghz or else Apple would have binned that for the 2GHz processors or at least the 1.8GHz ones. Anyways, I think Apple is in a bit of a pickle by having such a varying array of FSB speeds. Just my two cents.
..that I see with upgrading the G5's is the front-side bus (FSB). In x86 PC's, each class of processors (Pentium4, AthlonXP, ...) all have the same speed FSB (400MHz, 533MHz, 800Mhz) for a number of different processor speeds. In the case of the G5, each processor has a different speed FSB. This is a problem. Motherboards are rated to support a certain maximum speed FSB. You cannot run an 800MHz FSB Pentium4 on the 533MHz motherboards. Some, however, are able to be overclocked to support the new FSB. For instance, eventhough Intel rated all of its 533MHz FSB motherboards to run at 533MHz, some of them can, in fact, run at 800MHz. Most of then will run at 600 or something, but a few can do 800. I'm sure Apple is doing the same with it's motherboards. It's called binning. They "bin" the motherboards according to how fast they can clock the FSB. The 1.6GHz motherboards (with an 800MHz FBS) will be the ones that can only do 800MHz. The 1.8GHz can pull 900 and so on. So, if you get a 1.6GHz G5, it will come with a motherboard that is rated to do 800MHz. It could possibly do 900Mhz (that's only a 12.5% speed bump) rather stable, but it's not likely to do 1Ghz or else Apple would have binned that for the 2GHz processors or at least the 1.8GHz ones. Anyways, I think Apple is in a bit of a pickle by having such a varying array of FSB speeds. Just my two cents.
As a mac user since 1986 I find it disappointing that an increase in speed would be met by such skeptisism. Before the unit is even available people are critical of an upgrade path. From an individual who paid $3500 for a 8 MHZ SE I believe the new G5 is an extraordinay bargin.
Ok, if companies like Sonnet can figure out how to attach a zif socket to the cache slot on an old performa allowing you to run a G3/G4 processor, I'm sure they can figure out a silly little cooling issue 🙂
Also, upgrading a mac can be very economically sound in a lot of cases. About a year ago, I upgraded my 300MHz G3 to a 550MHz G4. It cost me a little over $200 from OWC and it has extended the life of my mac long enough for me to wait out the G5. Without the upgrade, I'd be dead in the water on my current recording project. The G3 300 just couldn't keep up with some of my newer software and plugins. With the G4, my old B&W is hanging in just fine.
Also, upgrading a mac can be very economically sound in a lot of cases. About a year ago, I upgraded my 300MHz G3 to a 550MHz G4. It cost me a little over $200 from OWC and it has extended the life of my mac long enough for me to wait out the G5. Without the upgrade, I'd be dead in the water on my current recording project. The G3 300 just couldn't keep up with some of my newer software and plugins. With the G4, my old B&W is hanging in just fine.
Re: So what else is new with Apple?
How has Apple copied XP? What feature of XP has been put in OS X?
How has Apple copied XP? What feature of XP has been put in OS X?
the heat problem to me seems not very plausible: i bet you won't put a 2.5 Ghz 970 upgrade into a 2 Ghz G5. because the performance wouldn't be that much better. you'd rather put a 3ghz 980 in it, and that chip (as well as a revised 970) will use 90nm techn. so it will run cooler at higher speeds. you won't need all those fans for an upgrade.
Upgrades are like cars
Upgrading a computer is very much like hotrodding a car. When a new vehicle arrives it rarely is fully understood by the aftermarket parts companies and so upgrading seems tough. Over time people gain a better understanding of what can and cannot be done. Given that the upgrade market always has been worth some effort for companies I would bet that someone will figure out how to overcome these calibration and cooling issues to successfully build some form of upgrade. Or perhaps this will open the door for Motorola to upgrade their capbilities and provide processors to upgrade companies.
And I don't believe that Apple swipes XP functionality. I believe that both Microsoft and Apple have hired some smart people that closely pay attention to trends in the market and problems in modern operating systems. More often than not, Apple gets there first.
Upgrading a computer is very much like hotrodding a car. When a new vehicle arrives it rarely is fully understood by the aftermarket parts companies and so upgrading seems tough. Over time people gain a better understanding of what can and cannot be done. Given that the upgrade market always has been worth some effort for companies I would bet that someone will figure out how to overcome these calibration and cooling issues to successfully build some form of upgrade. Or perhaps this will open the door for Motorola to upgrade their capbilities and provide processors to upgrade companies.
And I don't believe that Apple swipes XP functionality. I believe that both Microsoft and Apple have hired some smart people that closely pay attention to trends in the market and problems in modern operating systems. More often than not, Apple gets there first.
What's the point of upgrading? As time goes on the price of computers get cheaper and cheaper. You have inflation and competition to thank for that.
My Apple //e cost around $2500 in 1983. In todays dollars that is around $10,000 to $12,000. As salarys go up and inflation stays relatively low you can guarantee that in 3-5 years you'll be able to buy a computer that is 2-4x as fast and 25% to 50% less expensive.
Just buy what you want and buy again later. There is no need to upgrade. I've got a QS 733 and a iBook 900 and have no desire to get a new system until the G5 is in a Powerbook. If it takes a year or two that's fine with me. If the G5 powerbook comes out tomorrow I'll still wait a year or two at least.
I'm a software engineer and outside of testing on the G5 platform it's really not necessary. My company is in the very beginning stages of porting our apps to the Mac platform and as such we are in no hurry to chase the latest and greatest. Also the only way it seems to affect programmers are the default size of variables and assembly routines (not as much as other platforms though). I guess I'll just wait and see.