Upgrading old Mac Pro to 8800 GT graphics?

[Cowinacape]

What Apple should do, is at least throw us a bone, in the form of some sort of "press" release, and let us know what is going on. I really don't think that is to much to ask.

Nothing fancy, just cover the five W's is all.

 

[NATO]

Some are willing to ditch Apple entirely because of this upgrade not being available now??

I think the main issue here is that the 'New' Mac Pro is not fundamentally different than the 'old' Mac Pro and there is no real technical reason for the 8800 GT card to be incompatible with the older Mac Pro machines. People are rightly annoyed with Apple who have seemingly put an arbitrary restriction in place to stop people with 'old' Mac Pro machines from upgrading, thus trying to encourage users to buy a new machine entirely for the sake of a graphics card.

I'm as disgusted by this as anyone else is (providing the card is indeed incompatible), but unfortunately this is just business as usual as far as Apple is concerned. Apple will seemingly go to great lengths to stop upgrades which might step on the toes of new product sales.

 

[MacsRgr8]

What Apple should do, is at least throw us a bone, in the form of some sort of "press" release, and let us know what is going on. I really don't think that is to much to ask.

I agree on that.

That would seem professional too. State the fact that the 8800 is in *VERY* short supply, and that Apple is doing their best to come to a solution.

Please Steve... call ATi. Give us options. X2900 XT still is an okay card.

 

[MikeL]

It's just that in paying a premium for a computer, one expects premium level of support.

What apple SHOULD be doing in constantly working with Ati and NVidia to bring a large quantitity of cards on board and working with OSX.

Apple can't force a vendor to market a product. Frankly, it's not Apple's job to do that.

The software and hardware is there. ATI and Nvidia do that work for Apple. You people need to convince third-parties that you're genuine in your desire to pay for new products. Bitching and moaning here does nothing.

 

[exspes]

Apple can't force a vendor to market a product. Frankly, it's not Apple's job to do that.

The software and hardware is there. ATI and Nvidia do that work for Apple. You people need to convince third-parties that you're genuine in your desire to pay for new products. Bitching and moaning here does nothing.

It seems highly unbelievable to me that the fact there are no recent videocards from NVidia and ATI that are apple compatible except for the 3 models sold from Apple.

I can't attribute that scarcity purely to the fact that neither NVidia or ATI have any interest of making such cards...

Do correct me if I'm wrong though, if someone has evidence of this

 

[MacsRgr8]

I think the main issue here is that the 'New' Mac Pro is not fundamentally different than the 'old' Mac Pro and there is no real technical reason for the 8800 GT card to be incompatible with the older Mac Pro machines. People are rightly annoyed with Apple who have seemingly put an arbitrary restriction in place to stop people with 'old' Mac Pro machines from upgrading, thus trying to encourage users to buy a new machine entirely for the sake of a graphics card.

I'm as disgusted by this as anyone else is (providing the card is indeed incompatible), but unfortunately this is just business as usual as far as Apple is concerned. Apple will seemingly go to great lengths to stop upgrades which might step on the toes of new product sales.

Look, I do understand what you all are saying, and you should know I am one of those always bitching Apple about how they endlessly underestimate grfx hardware on Macs.
But on this occasion, it is more a supply - demand problem. The waiting time for a new Mac Pro with 8800 is 5 weeks! And that only because of that card! And what if so many old Mac Pro owners also ordered the same card...?
Maybe Steve finally realises that Mac users want good grfx hardware, and that he is staring to learn.

 

[MikeL]

It seems highly unbelievable to me that the fact there are no recent videocards from NVidia and ATI that are apple compatible except for the 3 models sold from Apple.

I can't attribute that scarcity purely to the fact that neither NVidia or ATI have any interest of making such cards...

Do correct me if I'm wrong though, if someone has evidence of this

Oh, right. There's a conspiracy. Of course. Why didn't I think of that?

Some of you people have no sense of how businesses work. When ATI releases a new Mac video card, all people do is complain about how it's more expensive than the PC counterpart. When there isn't a card released, people complain that there aren't options.

It's a small market. Got any idea of the number of MPs sold since 2006? Apple has segmented that market by continually evolving the machines, too. So let's say ATI comes out with a 2900HD card with an EFI32 firmware. They price it at $500, because there is low demand and the cost of producing retail drivers and firmware creates a higher overhead. Will you buy, or will you bitch that it costs too much?

ATI has, in the past, created a PC/Mac hybrid card. It cost more than the PC version, so few people with PCs bought it. It wasn't the high-end card, so the market for the Mac was small, too. Seeing as they haven't done it again, one has to assume it was a failure.

The real deal at play here is that if ATI and say, XFX, want to produce a Mac card they need to put it at a price point so that people don't just sell their previous generation Mac and buy a new Mac for an almost equivalent price. That's hard to do, given the size of the market.

That's likely why XFX, when they looked at producing Nvidia cards for the Mac market a couple of years ago, decided not to.

Convince these companies that you're willing to put your money where your mouth is, or go away. That's the reality here. Deal with it.

 

[Eidorian]

Oh, right. There's a conspiracy. Of course. Why didn't I think of that?

Some of you people have no sense of how businesses work. When ATI releases a new Mac video card, all people do is complain about how it's more expensive than the PC counterpart. When there isn't a card released, people complain that there aren't options.

It's a small market. Got any idea of the number of MPs sold since 2006? Apple has segmented that market by continually evolving the machines, too. So let's say ATI comes out with a 2900HD card with an EFI32 firmware. They price it at $500, because there is low demand and the cost of producing retail drivers and firmware creates a higher overhead. Will you buy, or will you bitch that it costs too much?

ATI has, in the past, created a PC/Mac hybrid card. It cost more than the PC version, so few people with PCs bought it. It wasn't the high-end card, so the market for the Mac was small, too. Seeing as they haven't done it again, one has to assume it was a failure.

The real deal at play here is that if ATI and say, XFX, want to produce a Mac card they need to put it at a price point so that people don't just sell their previous generation Mac and buy a new Mac for an almost equivalent price. That's hard to do, given the size of the market.

That's likely why XFX, when they looked at producing Nvidia cards for the Mac market a couple of years ago, decided not to.

Convince these companies that you're willing to put your money where your mouth is, or go away. That's the reality here. Deal with it.

Surprisingly enough for once Apple isn't terrible gouging the video cards this time around. $150 is a little higher then the typical Windows only price of $80-120. Just remember that it also works in OS X unlike the Windows only one.

Isn't the 8800GT running for $349 as a separate purchase as well? It works in OS X and Windows when it runs $280-310 on the street.

On the Intel side it isn't terribly hard to add EFI support like it was to have to flash video BIOS for Open Firmware only operations.

 

[aerolith]

On the Intel side it isn't terribly hard to add EFI support like it was to have to flash video BIOS for Open Firmware only operations.

back in the g4/g5 days there was the additional issue of big vs little endian byte addressing which I was always led to believe was a critical difference in each version of the firmware, but I may be mistaken.

 

[Eidorian]

back in the g4/g5 days there was the additional issue of big vs little endian byte addressing which I was always led to believe was a critical difference in each version of the firmware, but I may be mistaken.

Open Firmware, endian swapping, and smaller PC Video BIOS ROM sizes.

We're all on Intel now. How hard is it to add EFI boot support?

It's not like you can't take a Intel Mac compatible card and sell it as a Windows/PC only one. One card can now do the job that two cards did in the past.

 

[Wild-Bill]

I do own a Mac Pro (2006).

I do want a upgraded video card for it, I use it for work but also my addiction to World of Warcraft. An 8800 card would be great. I planned on buying one when I heard them announced on tuesday.

I have had warranty issues: I had a housecall where they replaced my bluetooth card.

I have a much of a right to be here as ANYONE, seeing as how I'm the proposed "victim" of this.

No, you don't when the sole purpose of your posts is to get people spun up, more than they already are. It's trolling. You have a history of posting incendiary comments. Granted, many cannot view your post history to find much of the evidence, as many of your posts in the past were summarily deleted by the moderators.

 

[exspes]

Oh, right. There's a conspiracy. Of course. Why didn't I think of that?

Some of you people have no sense of how businesses work. When ATI releases a new Mac video card, all people do is complain about how it's more expensive than the PC counterpart. When there isn't a card released, people complain that there aren't options.

I am not about conspiracy theories - and if my tone was such I didn't mean to be. I simply didn't understand it - you make valid points, and so I have a question:

on an Intel mac, why is the cost of a videocard more? From what I read, it's mostly about supporting EFI, right? And that only changes the bios of the card?

 

[Wild-Bill]

Surprisingly enough for once Apple isn't terrible gouging the video cards this time around. $150 is a little higher then the typical Windows only price of $80-120. Just remember that it also works in OS X unlike the Windows only one.

Isn't the 8800GT running for $349 as a separate purchase as well? It works in OS X and Windows when it runs $280-310 on the street.

On the Intel side it isn't terribly hard to add EFI support like it was to have to flash video BIOS for Open Firmware only operations.

You can't price gouge a product you don't even have yet, right?

They are, however, gouging the memory price and the hard drive prices.

Frys.com: 500 gig Seagate SATA $99.00; 750 SATA: 179.00
Apple: 500 gig SATA drive $250.00; 750 gig SATA drive: $400.00

I guess the extra $150.00 they charge for a 500 gig drive is labor cost for the factory worker to screw the drive to the sled....

 

[Eidorian]

You can't price gouge a product you don't even have yet, right?

They are, however, gouging the memory price and the hard drive prices.

Frys.com: 500 gig Seagate SATA $99.00; 750 SATA: 179.00
Apple: 500 gig SATA drive $250.00; 750 gig SATA drive: $400.00

I guess the extra $150.00 they charge for a 500 gig drive is labor cost for the factory worker to screw the drive to the sled....

Imagine Dell charging 3 times the retail price to upgrade your current dual core processor to a quad core.

I was expecting more then just the $180-200 upgrade price from the HD2600XT to the 8800GT. Given the performance of the 8800GT it's a steal to order it now instead of down the road.

 

[knome]

don't know if you guys know but the topic over at apple discussions finally got deleted/moved.

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=6313850#6313850

 

[MikeL]

on an Intel mac, why is the cost of a videocard more? From what I read, it's mostly about supporting EFI, right? And that only changes the bios of the card?

First there's creating the firmware. It's hard to assume that is done. If Apple contracted with Nvidia for an EFI64 firmware, and EFI32 firmware would have to be written. Then there's drivers. That's more likely to be ready to go, but retail cards (such as ATI's) have traditionally come with a richer set of control panel functions than Apple provides.

All of that needs to be tested. The testing required is the same whether you're going to sell 10,000 cards to MP owners, or 300,000 cards to PC owners. That cost gets spread amongst 10,000 rather than 300,000, for example.

Packaging and documentation needs to be created. Same thing on the costs.

Then there is support. This is the long-term cost. Driver updates are common. Apple's OX updates are common. Users have questions that need to be answered, so support sites need to be updated and maintained, and telephone support people need to be trained on OS X and the product.

That's why Mac cards are more expensive. All of those foundational costs are spread across a much smaller group of customers. This is why I don't think you see any of Nvidia's partners jumping into the Apple market. It's why I think ATI has waivered the last year or so.

As the number of Macs with upgradable graphics has shrunk, this really shouldn't surprise anyone. At some point it becomes economically unattractive to produce Mac video cards. If the consumer can buy a new Mac for the difference between selling their old one and buying a new one as opposed to buying a new graphics card, how many people will choose to upgrade their graphics?

To a degree, Apple has made that a very attractive option this time around. That only further dissuades companies from entering the market.

 

[antzona]

I finally got through to a competent product support supervisor after waiting on hold for an hour. He went and spoke to a couple different Mac Pro engineers to find out what was going on. He said that Apple expected the cards to be fully backwards compatible with the Mac Pros back through August of 2006. They didn't realize until two days ago that they weren't working in the older MPs. That is why the Apple Store didn't specify that they were only for the early 2008 machines, they weren't. He said the engineers are currently trying to figure out what the problem is and if it is something that nVidia can correct. I asked him if he had to bet would he say the 8800GT will someday work in my Mac Pro from Sept. of 06 and he said "as long as there isn't a technical issue that prevents it."

So, according to him Apple's only real mistake was not testing the cards early enough to prevent it going on sale the way they did. He also said they were way over due for a graphics card upgrade and mentioned the problems with the 1900XT. I asked him why they weren't letting us know what was going on and he said that the problem took them by surprise and they are scrambling to solve it.

We'll see...

 

[yeroen]

I finally got through to a competent product support supervisor after waiting on hold for an hour. He went and spoke to a couple different Mac Pro engineers to find out what was going on. He said that Apple expected the cards to be fully backwards compatible with the Mac Pros back through August of 2006. They didn't realize until two days ago that they weren't working in the older MPs. That is why the Apple Store didn't specify that they were only for the early 2008 machines, they weren't. He said the engineers are currently trying to figure out what the problem is and if it is something that nVidia can correct. I asked him if he had to bet would he say the 8800GT will someday work in my Mac Pro from Sept. of 06 and he said "as long as there isn't a technical issue that prevents it."

So, according to him Apple's only real mistake was not testing the cards early enough to prevent it going on sale the way they did. He also said they were way over due for a graphics card upgrade and mentioned the problems with the 1900XT. I asked him why they weren't letting us know what was going on and he said that the problem took them by surprise and they are scrambling to solve it.

We'll see...

Well that's encouraging news.

I still they think they should update their online store to make mention of this.

 

[Eidorian]

I finally got through to a competent product support supervisor after waiting on hold for an hour. He went and spoke to a couple different Mac Pro engineers to find out what was going on. He said that Apple expected the cards to be fully backwards compatible with the Mac Pros back through August of 2006. They didn't realize until two days ago that they weren't working in the older MPs. That is why the Apple Store didn't specify that they were only for the early 2008 machines, they weren't. He said the engineers are currently trying to figure out what the problem is and if it is something that nVidia can correct. I asked him if he had to bet would he say the 8800GT will someday work in my Mac Pro from Sept. of 06 and he said "as long as there isn't a technical issue that prevents it."

So, according to him Apple's only real mistake was not testing the cards early enough to prevent it going on sale the way they did. He also said they were way over due for a graphics card upgrade and mentioned the problems with the 1900XT. I asked him why they weren't letting us know what was going on and he said that the problem took them by surprise and they are scrambling to solve it.

We'll see...

Onward to Page 1 with this hopeful information!

 

[Lone Deranger]

Thanks for the heads-up Antzona.

It sounds like this explanation could hold some water. Let's hope it isn't just another story invented by product support to give us the run-around.

Like so many of you, I really want this card, but I guess all we can do for now (besides making sure Apple keeps hearing our complaints) is to wait and see how this pans out.

Come on Apple, do the decent thing and sort it out!

I finally got through to a competent product support supervisor after waiting on hold for an hour. He went and spoke to a couple different Mac Pro engineers to find out what was going on. He said that Apple expected the cards to be fully backwards compatible with the Mac Pros back through August of 2006. They didn't realize until two days ago that they weren't working in the older MPs. That is why the Apple Store didn't specify that they were only for the early 2008 machines, they weren't. He said the engineers are currently trying to figure out what the problem is and if it is something that nVidia can correct. I asked him if he had to bet would he say the 8800GT will someday work in my Mac Pro from Sept. of 06 and he said "as long as there isn't a technical issue that prevents it."

So, according to him Apple's only real mistake was not testing the cards early enough to prevent it going on sale the way they did. He also said they were way over due for a graphics card upgrade and mentioned the problems with the 1900XT. I asked him why they weren't letting us know what was going on and he said that the problem took them by surprise and they are scrambling to solve it.

We'll see...

 

[cal6n]

I finally got through to a competent product support supervisor after waiting on hold for an hour. He went and spoke to a couple different Mac Pro engineers to find out what was going on. He said that Apple expected the cards to be fully backwards compatible with the Mac Pros back through August of 2006. They didn't realize until two days ago that they weren't working in the older MPs. That is why the Apple Store didn't specify that they were only for the early 2008 machines, they weren't. He said the engineers are currently trying to figure out what the problem is and if it is something that nVidia can correct. I asked him if he had to bet would he say the 8800GT will someday work in my Mac Pro from Sept. of 06 and he said "as long as there isn't a technical issue that prevents it."

So, according to him Apple's only real mistake was not testing the cards early enough to prevent it going on sale the way they did. He also said they were way over due for a graphics card upgrade and mentioned the problems with the 1900XT. I asked him why they weren't letting us know what was going on and he said that the problem took them by surprise and they are scrambling to solve it.

We'll see...

What an optimistic outlook. Thanks for that!

 

[davidb367]

Watch out for DVI-D Compatibility

Just a reminder for those thinking about purchasing an BIOS 8800GT card and hoping to flash the firmware. All Apple DVI video cards for the MacPro and G5 are DVI-D. All Apple aluminum displays are also only DVI-D. I've only found one 8800GT card (MSI 8800GT-512 OC) that is a DVI-D card. From the recent posts, it would be smart just to wait for Apple to straighten this thing out.

Update 1/12/08

Another poster is correct. DVI-I is a super set of DVI-D and DVI-A. My apologies. Most all other 8800GT cards are DVI-I.

 

[AdvocateUK]

I finally got through to a competent product support supervisor ....
We'll see...

That certainly does sound promising. Especially as it should be a fairly easy task to get the 8800GT working, in theory of course.

 

[Hmac]

on an Intel mac, why is the cost of a videocard more? From what I read, it's mostly about supporting EFI, right? And that only changes the bios of the card?

Lower market penetration means far lower sales than for PCs, therefore recouping the cost of development requires a higher selling price. Plus, law of supply and demand. Why would it not be reasonable to charge what the market will bear?

 

[exspes]

Just a reminder for those thinking about purchasing an BIOS 8800GT card and hoping to flash the firmware. All Apple DVI video cards for the MacPro and G5 are DVI-D. All Apple aluminum displays are also only DVI-D. I've only found one 8800GT card (MSI 8800GT-512 OC) that is a DVI-D card. From the recent posts, it would be smart just to wait for Apple to straighten this thing out.

Most (All?) 8800gt's will be DVI-I. DVI-I is DVI Integrated - it carries potential for both analog and digital. So you can connect it to an ACD, you just need the right cable.

DVI-A is analog only. DVI-D is digital only.