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Upgrading old Mac Pro to 8800 GT graphics?
- Thread starter Fezzy
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I don't know if that's possible when the 2006/7 Mac Pros don't even recognize the card to start with. But even if it was possible, what if the re-flashing failed? It would be asking for trouble down the line as far as tech support goes. There are people with 2008 models out there that might come across the update on the Apple support site, flash their cards and possibly have an unserviceable computer.
I think we'll see new cards out with both EFIs on them in a month or so. As far as the interminable wait goes, we have to realize that once the decision is made, it can't happen instantaneously. A manufacturer has to be found, contracts exchanged, a slot in the production schedule found (no one is going to drop work in progress to make a few video cards) etc., etc., etc.. It's no surprise that the lead time is more than three months.
The fact that Apple didn't even bother to test the 8800GT on the earlier MacPros shows how hollow Apple's claims of upgradeability are. Attempting to blame this on Nvidia won't work. I'm sure Nvidia built the card to Apple's specifications. I also believe that compatibility with the earlier MacPro was not part of those specifications. Apple has got to learn that we are not going to buy a $3000 computer every year just to keep up with technology. I for one will probably go the hackintosh route rather than spend thousands on another Apple product that will be obsolete within a year.
I'm no legal guru, but I've seen people sue Apple for far less...
And lose...
I'm going to give it another month or so, but after that, if there is the possibility of a class action lawsuit I would actually consider jumping on. Sometimes I feel embarrassed about the way people just fire off lawsuits for any little thing, but in this case I'm in a position where I have a studio full of Mac Pros will are now slowly fading into obsolescence in terms of graphics cards because of Apple's total inability to deliver on a promise they made about this being the most expandable, upgradable Mac in the range. That's potentially tens of thousands of dollars in upgrade costs if I have to go down the route of buying complete new systems.
The point with lawsuits (or even the threat of a lawsuit) is that they are rarely won or lost - in fact they hardly ever get to court; but they generate enough bad publicity for the corporation being sued to make them do something about it. Speaking as the guy who got an email from Jobs saying 'it's being worked' we also have a statement direct from the CEO giving what may be misleading advice on which people could have made purchasing decisions. I think that would add a *lot* of strength to the case.
The point with lawsuits (or even the threat of a lawsuit) is that they are rarely won or lost - in fact they hardly ever get to court; but they generate enough bad publicity for the corporation being sued to make them do something about it. Speaking as the guy who got an email from Jobs saying 'it's being worked' we also have a statement direct from the CEO giving what may be misleading advice on which people could have made purchasing decisions. I think that would add a *lot* of strength to the case.
Blaming anybody won't work. We are in the dark and everyone is just speculating about blame and motive and what actually happened. The fact is that we just don't know, and a lot of people are just jumping to conclusions. Apple has been guilty of ignoring previous buyers in the past (and I have been a victim of that), but today's situation is far different than when they were confined to PPC hardware. In those days it was a necessity from a business point of view to just move on. That's not the case today.
We will never see the plethora of video cards available for the PC, and in some ways that's a very good thing. It means that in the long run, we get drivers that are more mature and reliable. Apple's market share and non-mainstream OS will ensure a limited supply of the "latest and greatest" until it becomes financially viable for third parties to make a profit. At that point, we'll probably suffer the present aberrations in video drivers available to PC buyers, together with slightly better performance. I'm not convinced one is better than the other, unless you are a gamer. On a production machine, reliability and stability is paramount.
The Mac Pro is not, and will never be a top-notch gaming machine. Admittedly there is a market for just such a machine now that Windows runs natively on Macs and so many PC users are defecting, but that machine would use a single multi-core processor and cheaper, less reliable, but faster memory. And cost a lot less.
I hope they build one.
Well, actually, a EFI driver can be built either in architecture dependant code (32bit or 64bit x86, itanium ...) or in EFI bytecode. And EFI bytecode runs fine on any architecture. This is the format that ATI uses, and that makes their cards work in both old and new Mac Pros. I don't know why Nvidia didn't go that way as well ...
pipomolo42, Thanks for that, very interesting, I wasn't aware. It seems that this might really be all Nvidia's fault after all. To be honest, I suspected this all along. Why on earth would Apple force Nvidia to announce a solution, unless it was Nvidia that had F**ked up in the first place? No corporation admits fault, unless forced to do so.
No, we don't!
Exactly which driver would fit this description for my two pre 2008 Mac Pro's? In light of all the problems people have had with the ATI 1900 card, I don't see one.
And that's why everyone is so annoyed. In my estimation you are cutting Apple way too much slack in trying to explain for them how this might have occurred.
They have left the customers who bought their UPGRADEABLE new Mac Pro's without a decent video card alternative. And many of them just bought the machine less than a year ago. That's just indefensible no matter which spin or excuse anyone tries to throw out there. And Apple's muted inaction for two months now only compounds it.
Exactly which driver would fit this description for my two pre 2008 Mac Pro's? In light of all the problems people have had with the ATI 1900 card, I don't see one.
And that's why everyone is so annoyed. In my estimation you are cutting Apple way too much slack in trying to explain for them how this might have occurred.
They have left the customers who bought their UPGRADEABLE new Mac Pro's without a decent video card alternative. And many of them just bought the machine less than a year ago. That's just indefensible no matter which spin or excuse anyone tries to throw out there. And Apple's muted inaction for two months now only compounds it.
Two things - (1) there is a reason we are in the dark. No official word from Apple. A denial would be a disaster and a confirmation creates an obligation. Silence speaks volumes here. Not even an acknowledgment from Apple despite an active petition and this thread being by far the biggest on this forum. Well, there was an acknowledgment of sorts..Apple deletes these threads on this subject from its official support site. (2) Stop saying its about reliability or blaming Nvidea or small market share. The freaking card ALREADY EXISTS for the new Mac Pro. Nvidea has already built this card. How do you explain how it was not made backwards compatible?
Also, how do you know there is no legal claim here? I think its worth going to competent lawyer and getting their view..particularly if you are a commercial user.
Blogger, do you work for Apple? You've been almost irrationally defensive of them. Anyone disagreeing should re-read his posts.
The ATI 1900 card had problems for some people. The drivers were not the cause. The problem with that card was a poor cooling system design. There are a lot of people out there that have systems that are running fine with this card, including myself. If you regularly blow out the dust from the heat-sink, all is well. No doubt there were also a few defective cards, but that is also true of every part in any computer in existence. Tis constant harping on about UPGRADEABLE is tiresome. It IS upgradeable, and we will get a new video card.
1/Show me any technology company that will publicly trumpet a mistake they have made. They immediately got word to the affected people via Nvidia and Engaget. Everyone here knows that. People also seem to be quite unaware of the realities of running a large corporation, either in PR, complexity, or lead time for products. Once a decision is made, it all doesn't happen by magic, as some here seem to imagine.
2/ The card was built, someone f**ked up. We've established that. S**t happens. It's human nature to screw up occasionally. It's going to be fixed, dwelling on why it happened is a complete waste of Time.
An email does not a courtcase make.
That's not the first time that someone's said that, and the answer is no. What you percieve as a pro-Apple bias is nothing of the sort. I've had my issues and disappointments with Apple before. I was pissed of about the 8800 incompatibility issue. But the level of stupidity and naivety spouted here is quite incredible. So many posts pluck fanciful stories out of the air, make the assumption that that is the exact truth and get angry about it. It's nonsense of course and it's obviously an exercise in futility for me trying to play the devil's advocate to try and maintain some balance.
There were a lot of cooler heads here earlier on in the thread, but all have been drowned out by the angry teenagers. I say teenagers, because that's exactly what they sound like. Well I've had enough, too. I won't be posting here again as I've got better things to do than argue with idiots.
You guys waste your time irrationally venting your spleens to your hearts' content. I for one won't be reading it.
Cheers!
Wow
No one is behaving like an angry teenager, with the exception of your last post. People who lash out and run away are usually perceived as the immature or "idiotic" person. Sorry you felt you had to respond to whoever in that matter. Perhaps you should be more specific when you call people names. I do agree that asking if you work for Apple is obnoxious though.
I actually like when people are willing to play "devil's advocate", I just don't see Apple as being unfairly criticized here though.
And I don't think we've established that it was an innocent screw up at all. That is still unclear in my eyes.
Lastly, having Nvidia's PR man tell a tech site that it is working on a solution is hardly the correct way to let customers know that a solution is in the works, at least by my standards. Apple needs to at least stand up and tell it's customers know that THEY are not being "worked".
The cooler heads were here, about two months ago, when they promised a fix in a few weeks, which is now turning into a few months.
No one is behaving like an angry teenager, with the exception of your last post. People who lash out and run away are usually perceived as the immature or "idiotic" person. Sorry you felt you had to respond to whoever in that matter. Perhaps you should be more specific when you call people names. I do agree that asking if you work for Apple is obnoxious though.
I actually like when people are willing to play "devil's advocate", I just don't see Apple as being unfairly criticized here though.
And I don't think we've established that it was an innocent screw up at all. That is still unclear in my eyes.
Lastly, having Nvidia's PR man tell a tech site that it is working on a solution is hardly the correct way to let customers know that a solution is in the works, at least by my standards. Apple needs to at least stand up and tell it's customers know that THEY are not being "worked".
Surprising...
Perhaps you should check the url in your browser: It's a RUMORS forum.
Hmmm...I didn't get that impression. But as kids in "my" generation used to say, "It takes one to know one."
Bravo! Thank you sir, for showing us how to do that.
Such anger. Damn that rap music.
Hey Blogger, go piss up a rope !
If anyone thinks that a BILLION dollar company "accidentally" forgot about '06 & '07 Mac Pro's, then you do not deserve a GPU upgrade.
[Mac Pro Team] : Yeah, we are always behind in the Graphics department, let's get the Mac Pro suited for an 8800GT. Hmmm... are we forgetting anything?! Nope, 64 bit is what we are all about. There is no need to use that old 32 bit stuff. OK. Let's go !
[Apple] : Oh Teh Noes !?!? We had no idea that we completely fk'd 10's of thousands of Mac Pro users... Honestly, we had NO IDEA. You believe us, right ?
[Steve Jobs] : Are they buying this ? Oops, did I say that outloud... Uh, I mean, we are working on a solution ! We love our customers and will create a solution to a problem that we knowingly created. I hope you don't sue us, even though we have broken the law and would lose the suit. Oops, did I speak out loud again
Everyone can believe what they want. Apple product veterans know exactly how this went down. Apple did this on purpose. They made NO mistake !
I don't care if they come out with a legacy card tomorrow, I still know they did this on purpose. They just hoped it would slide.
How some of you can defend their actions is beyond me
If anyone thinks that a BILLION dollar company "accidentally" forgot about '06 & '07 Mac Pro's, then you do not deserve a GPU upgrade.
[Mac Pro Team] : Yeah, we are always behind in the Graphics department, let's get the Mac Pro suited for an 8800GT. Hmmm... are we forgetting anything?! Nope, 64 bit is what we are all about. There is no need to use that old 32 bit stuff. OK. Let's go !
[Apple] : Oh Teh Noes !?!? We had no idea that we completely fk'd 10's of thousands of Mac Pro users... Honestly, we had NO IDEA. You believe us, right ?
[Steve Jobs] : Are they buying this ? Oops, did I say that outloud... Uh, I mean, we are working on a solution ! We love our customers and will create a solution to a problem that we knowingly created. I hope you don't sue us, even though we have broken the law and would lose the suit. Oops, did I speak out loud again
Everyone can believe what they want. Apple product veterans know exactly how this went down. Apple did this on purpose. They made NO mistake !
I don't care if they come out with a legacy card tomorrow, I still know they did this on purpose. They just hoped it would slide.
How some of you can defend their actions is beyond me
As all the games are on windows, couldnt you buy the latest and greatest graphics card and use it under bootcamp windows to play games??
As for the nvidia 8800gt, I've heard that apple is working on a nvidia 8800gt version for the older mac pro. I really want them to support the older mac pro as my mac pro will be old next year and I'd want to upgrade the gpu next year as well.
But wouldnt you need to unplug your monitor from the one card and put it on the other card? Sounds like a pain.
As all the games are on windows, couldnt you buy the latest and greatest graphics card and use it under bootcamp windows to play games??
As for the nvidia 8800gt, I've heard that apple is working on a nvidia 8800gt version for the older mac pro. I really want them to support the older mac pro as my mac pro will be old next year and I'd want to upgrade the gpu next year as well.
Not really, just unplug and plug thats right on below the card, takes nothing but 5 seconds.
I saw this response from an article and thought it has a great point. The below quote was referring to Apple retail stores hosting Guitar Hero III tourneys.
"The Mac is not known as a great gaming platform, so advertising the fact that a very popular game is available for it helps combat that perception."
"The Mac is not known as a great gaming platform, so advertising the fact that a very popular game is available for it helps combat that perception."
What do you use them for, anyway?
I'm seriously interested what some of you are actually doing with your Mac Pros that justifies this much outcry about not immediately having the latest video card offering?
EG. Benchmark testing I saw done on the new 8800GT in the 2008 Mac Pro showed that some functions in Apple's Motion software actually had BETTER frame-rates using the ATI X1900XT card. Obviously, this is a software/driver related issue, since the 8800GT hardware is clearly superior ... but I'm just saying. Some of you in a big hurry to have the latest thing will only end up updating to a SLOWER solution for you needs than what you had before, until the drivers and software catches up.
And if you're REALLY doing such time-critical work that the improvement in speed of a newer video card saves you that much time and money, then why can't you just invest in the latest machines?? It's not like you wouldn't get any resale value out of the older generation Mac Pros. Even PowerMac G5 towers a generation older than those fetch well over $1000 each on eBay right now. And you'd have 800Mhz bus speeds and RAM to boot, vs. the 667Mhz stuff.
I'm seriously interested what some of you are actually doing with your Mac Pros that justifies this much outcry about not immediately having the latest video card offering?
EG. Benchmark testing I saw done on the new 8800GT in the 2008 Mac Pro showed that some functions in Apple's Motion software actually had BETTER frame-rates using the ATI X1900XT card. Obviously, this is a software/driver related issue, since the 8800GT hardware is clearly superior ... but I'm just saying. Some of you in a big hurry to have the latest thing will only end up updating to a SLOWER solution for you needs than what you had before, until the drivers and software catches up.
And if you're REALLY doing such time-critical work that the improvement in speed of a newer video card saves you that much time and money, then why can't you just invest in the latest machines?? It's not like you wouldn't get any resale value out of the older generation Mac Pros. Even PowerMac G5 towers a generation older than those fetch well over $1000 each on eBay right now. And you'd have 800Mhz bus speeds and RAM to boot, vs. the 667Mhz stuff.
Not sure what you are saying but you do have to unplug your monitor from your video card everytime you boot and it is a royal pain. Its also bad for your hardware as it was not meant to be constantly unplugged.
Also, your off the shelf card may not work as is. Many high end graphics cards now require separate 4 pin power connectors..the kind mac pros do not have so you will have to find a work around.