*LTD*
macrumors G4
You're doing it wrong.
USB Compliance Organization Sides With Apple in Palm Pre Syncing Dispute
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You're doing it wrong.
KnightWRX
macrumors Pentium
I've had the same problems with iTunes before. By default, if I remove some music from my hard drive, iTunes will complain it can't find the music and then delete it off my iPod, when in fact I just wanted it moved to my network shares but not off my iPod.
So yes, there are options to deal with that kind of stuff and prevent it from happening, but by default, iTunes is setup wrong like that.
That's one of the reasons I hate "syncing". I'd rather just copy over stuff I want, and delete it from the device manually and independantely from my hard drive.
Neotyguy40
macrumors regular
Man Palm screwed up!
I believe the same thing happened to RealNetworks.
Why would Palm try and fight this battle publicly? Apple ALWAYS wins at public battles... I just don't understand why they would repeat another company's mistakes.
Although I do have to disagree with Apple... This is SO anti-competitive, and I'm surprised the FCC doesn't have anything against it.
I believe the same thing happened to RealNetworks.
Why would Palm try and fight this battle publicly? Apple ALWAYS wins at public battles... I just don't understand why they would repeat another company's mistakes.
Although I do have to disagree with Apple... This is SO anti-competitive, and I'm surprised the FCC doesn't have anything against it.
Eddyisgreat
macrumors 601
They're not losing a $200 sale. No one's going to buy an iPhone just so they can get easy iTunes syncing.
But the people already happy with Palm/Blackberrys/whatever - they're locking them out of easy syncing. Apple is leaving money on the table - way more than 99c (you know anyone who ever only bought one song?). Wow indeed.
I understand the business need to protect their hardware, this just seems shortsighted in general, but par for the course for them I suppose. In this instance I agree Palm seem to have gone about this really really badly too.
That's cool I guess. Try using the Remote with anything (e.g. Plex) and see iTunes take over
If no one will buy a iPhone just for itunes syncing, or conversley, if no one buys a PRE for the supposed ability to sync with itunes, why the hell is palm fighting to the death in order to keep it running. If it was an afterthought they would have stopped after Apple slapped their hand the first time, but its pretty clear people are not happy with palm whose stock chart looks like an EKG printout every time Apple has a press release or a new version of iTunes.
The fact IS, Apple will make MORE MONEY by selling hardware and enhancing the aura around an all in one experience which means keeping COMPETITIVE devices OUT. You can say that Apple should stand on the merits of their other features and "play nice" with itunes, but then I would guess that you havn't gotten a business degree or if you have, you missed the class that talked about competitive edge.
This isn't about Apple's competitive practices so much as it is Jon Rubinstein trying to keep his hand in the cookie jar of a girl who has moved past him. Its kinda stalkerish if you ask me!
Mark Booth
macrumors 68000
What is Apple doing that is stopping Palm from developing its own phone, its own media application and syncing software, and its own music and application store?
Answer: NOTHING!
Palm can compete all it wants. Except, of course, that the company was running on financial fumes when it released the Palm Pre. They probably barely had the financial resources to get THAT out the door, let alone pay someone to develop decent media software for the thing.
You want the lack of real competition these days, just take a look at the oil industry!
Mark
Your discussion of "lying" is just semantics. We could also say "stealing" is at issue, because Palm is benefiting "wrongfully" from Apples development and investment.
Now I can see what you are trying to argue: Where's the "wrong", where's the stealing or the lies when there is no person being lied to in my living room; it is happening in the privacy of my own home between two devices that I myself both own. What's the harm in Apple giving me a little more cause to be satisfied with their product, and helping things be a little more convenient for me? Afterall, I bought one of their products. Hey, it's all sunshine and roses and humming birds, no-one's getting hurt here. It's not like Steve Jobs walks in my house and I'm like, "hey dude, sign my, uh, iPod." And he's like, "sure, dude." Then he turns it over, and I'm like, "oh yeah, that; yeah, they did make one with a keyboard when you were kinda sick." What do you take me for, a real liar or something?
Well, that is a little self-centred. Like everything we use should just work out to our own personal convenience, and the people who make things should be looking at extra ways to help us feel the love, even to find alternatives to their products. Good grief.
I use various kinds of coffee when the mood strikes me. One day it's Douwe Egberts, another day maybe I use Illy or LaVazza. Hey I own the coffee, I drink it all in the same place; I use the same coffee mug everyday. I can even mix them in one mug. One big happy coffee family in my house (notice the anthropomorphism), it's a party.
So, for the life of me, I can't figure out why, when I cut the coupons off the packs, I inexplicably cannot redeem Douwe Egberts points and Illy points and LaVazza points all together toward one reward. I mean, hey, all the coffee is going in my mouth. I am enjoying all of it, myself. Why can't they let me get one big reward with all those different kinds of points? The points are all from buying my own coffee, that I am using in the privacy of my house. How dare they tell me what kind of coffee I can or cannot drink!
It's not fair, don't they know I would buy a whole load more coffee (of all kinds) if the points worked together? Maybe I would buy more Douwe Egberts, maybe I wouldn't. But I sure like the Douwe Egberts rewards and would choose their rewards over the others. DE are out to make my life miserable! They better accept my Illy points, or I am going to tell everyone what dirtbags DE are. The coupons are all just little pieces of paper, even if they have different logos on them. What's the big deal?
Why can't DE just be happy that I drink six cups a day and four of them were made by someone else? What does it really matter to them if they give me the full set of dishes or not? They would sure have one happy customer! Those DE dishes could be such a great selling point for Illy if DE played ball -- and imagine all the great karma DE would get!
I think I am entitled to the Douwe Egberts reward that you get for 100 000 points, eventhough I only bought enough DE coffee to receive 30 000 since I am drinking that amount of coffee altogether anyway. Hey, who do they think they are, anyway! The Coffee Police? Shoot, the more I write, the madder I am getting. I love my coffee. I love it I say. But if you deny me my DE dishes, why, why you are a stench in the nostrils of humanity. DE has trampled my rights and should be shot for their anthropomorphistic stance. Yeah, standing there, standing there with its hands in its pockets, thumbing its nose at me, like some kind of kitchen diva waving spotless white dishes at me. Yeah, you, you heard me. Waving those dishes, you.
kdarling
macrumors P6
Apple doesn't always win public battles.
When Steve Jobs stole the best Apple employees to come with him to NeXT, Apple sued.
This made everyone take far more notice of NeXT, as Apple was "clearly worried" about what this upstart company could do to compete. It was free publicity for NeXT, and a black eye for Apple.
Eventually Apple quietly dropped the suit, because it backfired so badly.
Jobs will not have forgotten this lesson. Better to publicly ignore Palm.
All the yapping we do around here about USB-IF this, and USB id that, is quite shallow in comparison to how large companies and CEOs think.
charlituna
macrumors G3
well in that case, why should I bother studying for next week's big test when with minimal effort I can just cheat off of you, who will spend the whole weekend recopying your notes with fresh multicolor pens, quizzing yourself with flash cards etc.
Stratus Fear
macrumors 6502a
You can say that but people who don't know any better will expect support from Apple. Even if they have to redirect them upon a support request, it still costs them time and resources to do so. Also, Apple isn't big enough in the market to be a trust; there are notable competitors. So, they don't fall under anti-trust regulation.
I don't think anyone here has actually shown where they are doing this. People keep talking about the iTunes-iTunes Store tie, but with more and more music going DRM-free, this is no longer true. So what's the problem? Edit: I think you were probably talking more about the iTunes-iPod tie now that I think about it. Since iTunes Store music can be played on any AAC supporting device at the moment, then the only argument here is to open up a piece of FREE software required to use a device you can buy. This kind of thing happens all the time in this market, though. Since Apple was able to make their software good, it's called a competitive advantage. People seem to not like that, either, just because Apple happened to be successful at it. Palm should either get used to that, or make their own competing app.
Somehow I completely brainfarted on the fact that it was available on Mac OS at the time too. Not sure what happened there. That being said, I think there is a material difference between strong-arming and implementing a technical block. Palm can still write whatever software they want regardless of what Apple does with iTunes. OEMs could not include Netscape with their machines where it drew the ire of Microsoft without severe repercussions, and there was little recourse but to turn to the government for Netscape. Palm is nowhere near needing to do this. Getting off their lazy asses and writing some damn library management software would be a great start, and is completely within their capability. Also, I don't believe the law says that the solution available from Apple has to be as convenient. Where you see the bolded part, for example -- Palm could, if they were actually motivated to do so, make an interface for their product that was even better than iTunes. Perhaps even marry it to one of the many other stores available. It doesn't need to be the iTunes Store. Which would completely negate the need for iTunes anyway.
Complaining that Apple isn't playing nice when Palm isn't even trying really isn't an argument. It's not up to one competitor to better another's product. That completely goes against the formal definition and the spirit of competition. When Apple owns 95% of the market and is a significant barrier to entry to potential competitors like Microsoft was, then we'll talk. Until then, it's valid competition. Entitled whining needs to stop.
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charlituna
macrumors G3
if you are correct and it was so clear an issue, Palm would have likely brought up the issue instead of just running to folks with no legal power. After all, the government is having fun going after Apple right now, tossing in some more anti-trust claims would just be icing on the cake (I'm sure Psystar would be happen to loan Palm a lawyer)
Unless you are driving through rural Oklahoma with an Arkansas license plate the day after the Razorbacks creamed the Sooners on live TV. then you probably were being targeted.
As my Pappy used to say, when you only swim in the deep end you find a hell of a lot fewer warm spots.
Cerebrus' Maw
macrumors 6502
Just manually manage your ipod?
I think they need to actually pay their lawyers first... I understand that might be problematic. Of course their legal team isnt doing much for Psystar right now anyway..
If this is a real danger, it would already be happening with 3rd-party iTunes tie-ins. If the ability of the user to properly choose their support channel is so fragile, I don't see how it's going to be manifestly different if it's software interacting with iTunes and not hardware. In any event, I'd guess that the difference in support requests when two products you're using aren't playing nice and you've paid for one and got this other for free is quite large in favor of the product you paid for.
I don't know that I buy that Apple could not fall under anti-trust regulation in either digital music distribution or portable music players. By several accounts, they exceed 70% market share in both. This is well beyond what would be reasonably considered dominant. The iPhone isn't nearly so dominant. It seems a simple matter to draw the line between Apple changing a product in one market segment that they dominate to harm a competitor in one where they don't.
I'm talking about the iTunes-iTunes Store tie. The iTunes Store is a fantastically successful digital music distribution platform, and as far as I know you can't utilize it without iTunes. You can use the products you purchase outside of iTunes, but iTunes is the conduit you must use, and it happens to be a digital music management program, too. It's the de facto standard. Palm seemingly has no plans to compete with them when it comes to digital music distribution...why would they? The barrier to entry is enormous and Apple is extremely dominant. They do however want to complete in the mobile phone space. The essence of the argument is that Apple ought to let the iPhone compete directly, and not rely on breaking the interoperability of a different product (in a different market segment) to entrench the iPhone. Surely you'll say "but they can sync using the XML." Yes, but the crux of the matter is that this provides an inferior user experience. If somebody who didn't sell portable music players or portable phones ran the iTunes Store, they would attempt to offer the best experience for all users.
So Palm's solution is that they should use a digital music source that doesn't provide 70% of digital music in the market today? Is that the best solution for their users? The issue is that, if you're not using Apple hardware, Apple's not particularly concerned with your user experience when using iTunes. There's something fundamentally wrong with that.
So 95% is the threshold? I'm sorry, but that's an absurd standard. You'll have to find some support for that kind of number. Just because 95% is well accepted as wielding undue market influence, and may be near what Windows has or does command, doesn't mean that it's anywhere near the lowest acceptable threshold.
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duck apple
macrumors regular
Sorry, I delete my improper comment.
cloudblood84
macrumors regular
On behalf of many (if not most Pre users), we dont want this either. This is good news, and palm is being ridiculous. If we wanted seamless iTunes we would have iPhones.
gnasher729
Suspended
First, the iTunes music store doesn't provide 70% of digital music in the market today. It provides maybe 20%. The huge majority of digital music still comes from CDs.
Second, even if the iTunes music store did provide the huge majority of music, that would be no problem for Palm Pre users, because they are free to buy at any of the other stores, for example at Amazon. The iTunes music store and Amazon are competitors, you are free to buy from the competitor that serves you better.
Third, even if you bought all your music from the iTunes Music Store, you are free to install it on your Palm Pre (except for music with DRM, where the music companies forced contracts on Apple that don't allow either you or Apple to copy the music onto a device that isn't an iPod). Apple doesn't prevent that in any way. Apple just doesn't write software to do it.
Apple wrote an application (iTunes) that rips CDs, organises your music and videos, plays your music and videos, and downloads music from the iTunes Music Store. All these features are available to anybody, including Palm Pre users. In addition, iTunes downloads applications from the iPhone application store, syncs music from your music library to iPods and iPhones, syncs applications to iPhones and iPod touch, and manages and installs software updates to Apple products. This part is specifically made for users of Apple products. Other manufacturers are free to compete with Apple by building better devices and writing better syncing software.
KnightWRX
macrumors Pentium
Instead of just quoting a single part, you'll notice that's exactly what I said I did. However, iTunes doesn't default to this behavior and it confuses many people that are used to manually managing their music at first.
I got news for you. If Apple were to run the iTunes store but not sell iPods or iPhones, iTunes would have no syncing facility. Everyone would have to go through the "inferior method of using a vendor supplied app that reads in a XML file" :
Wow, look at all that inferiority. Seriously, he can sync playlists and songs, eject the device, set device options and all is about a single click away.
That's not what the poster you're replying to said. He said if Palm is not happy with Apple's provided facilities, they are free to partner with another digital music store and use their facilities. They are also free to write Palm MediaSync like Blackberry did if they really want to use the iTunes stuff.
And who cares what the market share of your digital music store is ? Market share doesn't make it better or worse. If the artists you want are on there, either is fine.
Which brings us to your anti-trust claims. Market share has nothing to do with it. Monopolies are about 1 thing : market control. As it stands, Apple might have a big market share in media playing hardware and digital music distribution, but they don't control the market at all. You're not forced into buying an iPod to use content that is iPod exclusive, bought exclusively on the iTunes store. With DRM-free music being the norm now, any player that supports AAC can play back iTunes bought music. The iPod can playback MP3s, which are sold by other DRM free music vendors, so Apple isn't locking out other digital music stores from their hardware.
You can walk into Bestbuy and buy any number of different players from Sony, Samsung, Creative, Microsoft or any other brand you like. You can choose your player based on features that you like, in many shapes and colors. You can then go online and choose any store you like, or many stores to buy from. Apple has no control over the market. If tomorrow Apple were to start trying to bully people, they could just go elsewhere and no one would be wiser.
So it's disingenious to start foaming at the mouth asking for anti-trust litigation against Apple in this arena because they could prove competition is healthy in a heartbeat. They could just drag the DoJ and the judge assigned to the case to Bestbuy, pick up a Sony device, drag them all the way to the computer aisle, log into Amazon MP3, and buy some music for it on a HP Laptop.
gnasher729
Suspended
Just a tiny addition: That XML file is not just any arbitrary XML file (and XML files can be quite hard to parse), it uses the "Property List" DTD which means it can be parsed with two lines of code into an NSDictionary or a CFDictionary, whatever you prefer. Two lines of code, that's it.
gnasher729
Suspended
If you don't have a USB license, not only can't you use the logo (which many people wouldn't notice), you also can't mention that it is USB compatible, you can't say that it is USB compatible if asked. If Palm didn't have the license, and you went to a shop with the intent to buy a Palm Pre and asked "can I plug it into the USB port on my Macintosh", the sales person would have to say "No".
And the logo is very important: When you plug a USB cable into your MacBook, it's hard to know which way round, but the rule is simple: Always plug it in so that the USB logo is on the top. So if I have a cable without USB logo, that's really annoying.
duck apple
macrumors regular
I urge you to persuade Palm to disguise the Pre as Zune HD and see what happens.
Wow, I hope you're joking.
If you think this is minute then you really don't understand the implications of Palm's actions. The whole principle of USB's plug-and-play feature depends on unique vendor IDs. Imagine if HP decided they would use Canon's vendor IDs for their printers. Do you think the Canon drivers would just magically work with HP printers?
That's just being deliberately obtuse. I mean 70% of online digital music distribution, and that's obvious. They sell more music than Best Buy.
The fact that the vast majority of online digital music comes from the iTunes store has the effect of making the iTunes software the de facto standard music management software. If the iTunes Store's market share is 70%, it's quite possible that the market share for iTunes, itself, is actually higher yet.
Leaving aside the "poor Apple" talk (they still thought it was okay to sell music with DRM), I thought the power of default settings was settled back in the browser fiasco. The iTunes Store sells 70% of online music, so iTunes is the default music management software, because you can't buy music on iTunes without it.
iTunes and the iTunes store are fantastically successful. Proactively crippling the ability of a 3rd party to sync with iTunes (an ability which was developed without cost to Apple) to protect the iPhone is a dangerous cross-market precedent. If Microsoft tweaked Windows so that Boot Camp didn't work, the Apple community would be livid...but Microsoft doesn't sell computers, so why do they care? I'm no fan of Microsoft, believe me, but I'm not going to be a blind fan of Apple in all that they do, either. They're a company, and they sometimes do Bad Things in the name of profit. That being a company at all makes this their nature is of no consequence, we should be advocates for users wherever we find them.
rmhurdman
macrumors newbie
Either it is purely coincidental, or they are terrible at hiring. Palm wouldn't be in this mess if their average IQ were higher than 100, I'm guessing. But at the same time, Palm is probably a big enough company that they will fit the bell curve.
And it's not really scary that half the population falls below the average; because of the bell shape, 2/3 are very close to the average. By definition.
Instead of typing "sorry for being boring", might I suggest clicking "cancel" instead of "post".