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As you guys can see, I've been around MacRumors for a while. And Appleinsider before that, etc.

For the last 11 years I've been a complete Apple fanboy (Since buying an iMac on 8/15/1998).

But sheesh, I really can't believe how many of you are applauding Apple's move to restrict interoperability. And yes, this is the very definition of anti-competitive behavior. Apple is using their dominance in digital music players (both hardware and software) to keep alternative products from utilizing iTunes.

Nobody asked them to support Pre syncing. Every consumer with a Pre would have been fine with them ignoring it. As consumers, we would have had more choice if they did ignore it.

What happened to the "It's better to be a pirate than join the Navy" mentality that I loved about the Apple community? It's like most people here have become drones... as if the people applauding Microsoft's abusive monopoly shifted over the last decade and now make up most of the Apple community.

It's time to Think Different again, folks.
 
nkawtg72 said:
apple DOES allow third party access to itunes through XML. educate yourself about it, then come back here and provide a response to the rest of us.

There's no reason to use a third party syncing method if a totally usable method has already been written and is easy to utilize. Palm did this with minimal effort, there is no reason to be so redundant.

nkawtg72 said:
it's hands down Apple's software, and they can write it to support whatever devices they want. period, end of story. there is no argument on the planet that can upstage that one simple fact.

You are totally correct, it's the fact that Apple is purposefully DISABLING pre's from syncing is the issue!

nkawtg72 said:
thirdly, just because apple has been successful means that they should encourage competition?!?!?! what?!?!?!?! do explain where you see this done in ANY industry on the planet.

It's called being a monopoly, and avoiding anti trust allegations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition_law

both are good reads, should bring you up to speed

Wikipedia said:
Under EU law, very large market shares raises a presumption that a firm is dominant, which may be rebuttable. If a firm has a dominant position, then there is "a special responsibility not to allow its conduct to impair competition on the common market"

nkawtg72 said:
lastly, i'm glad you came by today. had you not been here none of us wouldve ever noticed that apple is "completely guilty of anti-competitive practices...." i highly encourage you to report this to the authorities, i'm sure theyll love to hear all the juicy evidence you'll be able to supply them, that i'm sure they've NEVER tried to find, since as all of us know Apple has never been looked at with a fine toothed comb before.


its wonderful that everyone pretends that because no issue with a company has been found, that none exist. Apple is being investigated by the FCC for the google voice app fiasco, and many telcos are being investigated regarding exclusivity agreements for which apple is pretty famous for in the US. The fact that the licensing agreement of OS X only allows for it to be installed on apple hardware is also a point of contention for which apple has been scrutinized for. Apple looses nothing but time and money by trying to block palm.

This is classic morality vs legality and Apple fails horribly.
 
While "legally" technically correct, it's disappointing that the USB-IF didn't take this opportunity to scold Apple for not behaving in the spirit of why the USB spec was created in the first place.

This may just be the first round where USB device makers lock out their devices to $$$$ from the highest bidder. Big hint to Microsoft, if they ever want to knock Apple out of the computer industry.
It seems as if you have no understanding of how software and specifically drivers for USB devices work. The "unique" ID that each USB device type is given is how an operating system is able to figure out which device is connected and to load the appropriate driver for it.

Palm broke the USB spec, not just the "spirit" of it.
:rolleyes:

If you are a Palm Pre owner, my condolences but you should have done your research before selecting a device and carrier. Sprint is one of the last US carriers trying desperately to hold on to the aging CDMA standard. Everyone else is moving on to LTE (4G GSM) in the 2010-2011 time period.

PS. Before someone parrots the Verizon line that LTE is currently data only, LTE is an extension of UTMS (3G GSM in Europe and Canada) which is also data only but has a dedicated voice layer within the data stream for voice calls on the carrier network. LTE will work the same way.
 
You are totally correct, it's the fact that Apple is purposefully DISABLING pre's from syncing is the issue!

Link to data spec showing this is how its happening? Apple is not writing code that says "If it's a pre don't let it in". As we've already established, Apple is strengthening their Authentication methods to better distinguish iPod and iPhone models for proper authentication in itunes (or not, doesn't matter). For all you know they could be enhancing their checks because they realized that the the 2nd generation ipod slightly changed its design mid product cycle and the only way they could accurately portray this in the device picture is to use serial number checks. Course once Palm starts to spoof serial number hashes there will be a serious legal battle of Palm vs...uhh...everyone (Apple, ATT, Microsoft, MPAA, RIAA) as serial numbs are one of the few things available to distinguish each device.

Next time you lock your door i'm going to march on your lawn and yell "Anti-Trust!" and "Monopoly!" and then call the cops stating you are violating a whole bunch of agreements for not letting me have access to your house, which is clearly anti-competitive.
 
But sheesh, I really can't believe how many of you are applauding Apple's move to restrict interoperability. And yes, this is the very definition of anti-competitive behavior. Apple is using their dominance in digital music players (both hardware and software) to keep alternative products from utilizing iTunes..

Forcing Apple to open the iPod-iTunes sync protocol would create disincentive to innovate. Apple isn't blocking anyone from market (iTunes is not a market, it is a product); they're simply protecting their own investment (iTunes) in effect requiring their competitors to innovate and create their own work. This is the entire point of competition and is not anti-competitive. If Apple's competitors were effectively disallowed from creating their own software and using any method of accessing data from iTunes, that would be anti-competitive, because it would be a direct effect on a competitor's product with said competitor having no other option. But that's not the case here; they can create their own solution, or access iTunes data through other methods. People around here like throwing around terms like "anti-competitive" and "monopoly" without knowing what they really mean or analyzing the situation thoroughly to really understand if it is or is not the case.

The entitlement/everything should be free to everyone mentality is like everyone being allowed to copy test answers off of the one smart kid in class. In the end everyone is the same and there is no real difference or choice between offerings. I'm finding it really hard to believe that not everyone understands this.
 
It was Palm testing the market for a really, really low price.

Why write competing software if you don't know how large the userbase will be? Simpler and quicker to rush out 'a feature' and see how many like/hate it before deciding the outcome of the project.

After all, there's no need to reinvent the wheel.
 
It seems as if you have no understanding of how software and specifically drivers for USB devices work. The "unique" ID that each USB device type is given is how an operating system is able to figure out which device is connected and to load the appropriate driver for it.

Palm broke the USB spec, not just the "spirit" of it.
:rolleyes:

If you are a Palm Pre owner, my condolences but you should have done your research before selecting a device and carrier. Sprint is one of the last US carriers trying desperately to hold on to the aging CDMA standard. Everyone else is moving on to LTE (4G GSM) in the 2010-2011 time period.

PS. Before someone parrots the Verizon line that LTE is currently data only, LTE is an extension of UTMS (3G GSM in Europe and Canada) which is also data only but has a dedicated voice layer within the data stream for voice calls on the carrier network. LTE will work the same way.


People keep saying CDMA is a dieing techology yet they tend to forget that 3G used by GSM carriers tech is a CDMA based techology.....
The real battle is over which CDMA tech is better. Since it is more CDMA techology that split.
 
The entitlement/everything should be free to everyone mentality is like everyone being allowed to copy test answers off of the one smart kid in class. In the end everyone is the same and there is no real difference or choice between offerings. I'm finding it really hard to believe that not everyone understands this.

Here's what Steve has to say about that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW0DUg63lqU

By your logic, it would be just fine for Microsoft to deliberately prevent another company from syncing with Windows Media Player. Do you really want to take that position?

I just want to know how Palm got to be the cool company with the hacker mentality, while Apple and our community turned into a bunch of asshats that go out of our way to chide them for it.

Our community has become become the antithesis of what it once was.
 
By your logic, it would be just fine for Microsoft to deliberately prevent another company from syncing with Windows Media Player.

All the while, all you need to do is go into your "My Music" folder and pull files from there. Or have another program that syncs with that folder. There is nothing wrong with said logic. Nobody has any inalienable right to sync directly through iTunes. You have access to iTunes data without the program. Preference != right.

I just want to know how Palm got to be the cool company with the hacker mentality, while Apple and our community turned into a bunch of asshats that go out of our way to chide them for it.

Our community has become become the antithesis of what it once was.

Personally, I'd be calling the same on Apple if they were doing it against somebody else. It's not good business. It's underhanded.

Here's what Steve has to say about that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW0DUg63lqU

I don't think that Apple carbon copies what it does. The point is not that you use somebody else's idea, the point is that you do it better. Hacking iTunes as opposed to making your own solution is like carbon copying an exam; you're not doing anything special at all.
 
It's called being a monopoly, and avoiding anti trust allegations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition_law

both are good reads, should bring you up to speed

Just because you can read it, doesn't mean you understand it.

Apple does NOT have a monopoly with iTunes, and there is a very simple explanation that everyone that has studied a bit of competition law understands:

There are numerous alternatives to download music (Amazon, Musicload etc) and to sync music to whatever device, both on the Mac and on Windows.

Although the market share of Apple is high in both iPods and digital downloads, there is no obstruction to you going somewhere else if you do not want to deal with Apple. That's why it is no monopoly.
 
All the while, all you need to do is go into your "My Music" folder and pull files from there. Or have another program that syncs with that folder. There is nothing wrong with said logic. Nobody has any inalienable right to sync directly through iTunes. You have access to iTunes data without the program. Preference != right.
.


And that completely defets the purpose. All play list are lost. That is what really matters.

One thing that has always annoyed me about Apple is they do not play nice with others. It is their way or the highway. The iPod ONLY works with iTunes we the consumer get not choice in the matter if we want to use another piece of software. WMP recognize iTunes as a MP3 player and offers to sync up with it but of course the iPod rejects it. I know people who love WMP over iTunes and WMP has some features that are just better than what is in iTunes. But the iPod will not play nice with it.

iTunes only places nice with the iPod.

Many ways I hope that apple aditude comes back to bit them in the ass on how they treat others and refusing to play nice. The Apple standard = the consumer loses because we get fewer choices.

Apple is a chicken. They are afraid that there stuff can not stand up on its own so it forces it will by using things from other areas.

Personally I view the actions apple been taken against the Pre as admitting it is scared and a chicken . It see the Pre as a threat so it wants to break it.
 
And that completely defets the purpose. All play list are lost. That is what really matters.

Then use a playlist management program that supports your device. If there isn't one, complain to the manufacturer you got your device from. It's not Microsoft's nor Apple's job to support another company's product or a hack.

One thing that has always annoyed me about Apple is they do not play nice with others. It is their way or the highway. The iPod ONLY works with iTunes we the consumer get not choice in the matter if we want to use another piece of software. WMP recognize iTunes as a MP3 player and offers to sync up with it but of course the iPod rejects it. I know people who love WMP over iTunes and WMP has some features that are just better than what is in iTunes. But the iPod will not play nice with it.

iTunes only places nice with the iPod.

Many ways I hope that apple aditude comes back to bit them in the ass on how they treat others and refusing to play nice. The Apple standard = the consumer loses because we get fewer choices.

Apple is a chicken. They are afraid that there stuff can not stand up on its own so it forces it will by using things from other areas.

Personally I view the actions apple been taken against the Pre as admitting it is scared and a chicken . It see the Pre as a threat so it wants to break it.

Business isn't always open. Businesses aren't required to give you what you want, down to every little detail or specification. The fact is, you have other choices. If none are ideal, you choose the best one. If you have a complaint about Apple's products (or anyone's products, for that matter) they have some comment lines you can provide feedback to. Certainly more productive than complaining in a forum ;)
 
Semantics, really? Re-word the sentence to say "other corporations." And try to debate points, not form.

The point is that Palm's not hurting anyone, and you're defending Apple's deliberate limitation of interoperability, not our (consumers') interests.

Remember, you were the one to say Palm's actions were underhanded.

I'd reassess my principles if I were you.
 
And that completely defets the purpose. All play list are lost. That is what really matters.

One thing that has always annoyed me about Apple is they do not play nice with others. It is their way or the highway. The iPod ONLY works with iTunes we the consumer get not choice in the matter if we want to use another piece of software. WMP recognize iTunes as a MP3 player and offers to sync up with it but of course the iPod rejects it. I know people who love WMP over iTunes and WMP has some features that are just better than what is in iTunes. But the iPod will not play nice with it.

iTunes only places nice with the iPod.

Many ways I hope that apple aditude comes back to bit them in the ass on how they treat others and refusing to play nice. The Apple standard = the consumer loses because we get fewer choices.

Apple is a chicken. They are afraid that there stuff can not stand up on its own so it forces it will by using things from other areas.

Personally I view the actions apple been taken against the Pre as admitting it is scared and a chicken . It see the Pre as a threat so it wants to break it.

If Apple blows and WMP is tits in your opinion then why not just get a zune? Obviously you feel Apple's offerings pale in comparison to their competitors, despite desperate attempts to ride the iTunes bandwagon, in some cases even holding updates hostage waiting for Apple's next move, and something as outrageous as having your stock price fluctuate when it is discovered that you promised a feature that you have no legitimate control over, complaints about the competitions hardware, or perhaps that tiny 70% marketshare that Apple enjoys in the portable space. I don't think 70% of the market is in love with the iPod but I can't imagine if a product sucks THAT BAD that people will continue to buy it, even if it is considered a luxury good.
 
The point is that Palm's not hurting anyone, and you're defending Apple's deliberate limitation of interoperability, not our (consumers') interests.

Remember, you were the one to say Palm's actions were underhanded.

I'd reassess my principles if I were you.

It would be in consumers' best interests for Palm to create its own syncing solution. It would be in Palm's best interest to spend their own R&D money instead of somebody else's R&D money (the latter of which is hurting someone, hmm, wonder who that is). It would also be in their interest to actually compete on all levels. They should be making their own solution or licensing someone else's, just like everyone else does. They are doing neither and are instead kicking and screaming that they might actually have to produce something like most companies do. That's the point.

Valuing underhanded tactics over ingenuity or effort when the difference to the consumer would be negligible? Who needs to reassess principles? Not to mention this isn't even an argument. It's an ad hom, and you didn't even respond to what I said. Palm should have had software to go alongside the Pre. They did not. Just because iTunes access happens to be in your interest (a Palm-made solution would be just as much, mind you!) does not make the solution acceptable.

I agree with the poster that said this is like whining about access to my house when I locked the front door. You had no right to access the house in the first place. Buy your own house.
 
There's no reason to use a third party syncing method if a totally usable method has already been written and is easy to utilize. Palm did this with minimal effort, there is no reason to be so redundant.


that's about stupid. redundancy is going to naturally happen when theres competition don't you think. how many brands of cars are there out there? they all get from point A to B or perform similar functions. what can't Chevy just grab a few Dodge trucks and stick a bowtie on the hood and call it theirs? why waste all that time and money developing a whole other truck to compete against it?

so basically you're saying since Apple's already done it, there's no reason to think that a competitor should have to do a single lick of development to support its own product in order to be competitive. don't forget, Apple doesn't sell iTunes. they sell the devices that iTunes SUPPORTS and adds to the value of the experience of those products.

Palm created the Pre to compete with iPhones/iPods. if they want it to have all the same gee wiz features and experiences as an iPhone does, they need to support that with their own development.

and once again, using the XML method that Apple has provided to developers for giving them access to the content (CONSUMERS own the content and CHOOSE to use iTunes to manage that content) isn't rocket science nor is it restrictive.


You are totally correct, it's the fact that Apple is purposefully DISABLING pre's from syncing is the issue!
that makes no sense. how can i be correct yet you still imply that Apple is somehow doing something wrong by controlling their IP?!?!?!

It's called being a monopoly, and avoiding anti trust allegations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition_law

both are good reads, should bring you up to speed

thanks, but not only have i read those before, but it also doesn't answer the question. providing me a definition of what a monopoly is doesn't make it so. i could accuse you of beating your wife then post a link for the definition of what Domestic Violence is. does that mean you beat your wife? of course not.

i'm not the one accusing Apple of committing a crime, you are. i don't have to provide evidence to support my position you do. not the least of which i couldn't anyway and you know that, which is why you won't answer my question. it's called proving a negative. it's not possible. just like you couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you don't beat your wife. you say "she has no bruises" and i say "they've healed."

it all comes down to you having the "opinion" that apple is committing a crime. to that, you are totally entitled to feel that way. however to use your opinion as fact and the basis for an argument, just isn't going to fly.

so again, i ask you. what specifically is apple doing that you think is criminal, and show me where it says in the law that it is in fact a crime?


its wonderful that everyone pretends that because no issue with a company has been found, that none exist.

that's such a paranoid life to live is it not? how sad.

but let's all run with this one anyway. i believe you sell crack cocaine to 3 graders at the school down the street from you. i'm going to go around and tell everyone i meet that you do, and i'm going to tell your employer that you do. maybe they'll even feel enough pressure to fire you because it must be true since i believe it so fervently. when you can prove to me that it isn't so, then i'll retract my accusation.


Apple is being investigated by the FCC for the google voice app fiasco, and many telcos are being investigated regarding exclusivity agreements for which apple is pretty famous for in the US. The fact that the licensing agreement of OS X only allows for it to be installed on apple hardware is also a point of contention for which apple has been scrutinized for. Apple looses nothing but time and money by trying to block palm.

This is classic morality vs legality and Apple fails horribly.

good for the FCC. i'm glad theyre actually doing something with all those tax dollars they receive. if they do find something illegal, i'm sure they'll let us all know. in the meantime, i live in the US of A and believe in innocent UNTIL proven guilty. not there's an investigation so youre assumed guilty, or appear to be guilty, or thought to be guilty, or because i said so guilty. except in your case of course. you really must stop selling crack to children

and before you or anyone else tries to throw the "just another apple fanboy" label out there, i go on record as saying that even i never accused MS of illegal activity before they were in fact found guilty of it. did i like what they were doing prior to that, no. but i simply said, they better hope they are right because if they ever get investigated it could mean a whole world of hurt.

if you were approaching apple similarly i'd be responding a whole lot differently, but you aren't now are you?
 
With Apple's dominant position in iPods (approaching genericized trademark territory) and music sales, Palm would be better served by pursuing anti-competitive interdictions with the EU primarily and DOJ secondarily than by bothering with an industry-funded standards consortium. There is nothing novel or interesting about iTunes as software, except that it is the front end to the most popular extant music distribution system for the most popular devices.

While Apple and Palm are trying to protect each's interests, open standards and interoperability are always better for the consumer than vendor lock-in. In the long run, the consumer ultimately is the loser in this feud. Between the entertainment cartels, the hardware/software vendors and their lobbies, its amazing that file conversion and transfer between a single person's devices isn't a capital offense.

Why should Apple have to support other devices?
Who pays them for the development and support?
 
And that completely defets the purpose. All play list are lost. That is what really matters.

One thing that has always annoyed me about Apple is they do not play nice with others. It is their way or the highway. The iPod ONLY works with iTunes we the consumer get not choice in the matter if we want to use another piece of software. WMP recognize iTunes as a MP3 player and offers to sync up with it but of course the iPod rejects it. I know people who love WMP over iTunes and WMP has some features that are just better than what is in iTunes. But the iPod will not play nice with it.

iTunes only places nice with the iPod.

Many ways I hope that apple aditude comes back to bit them in the ass on how they treat others and refusing to play nice. The Apple standard = the consumer loses because we get fewer choices.

Apple is a chicken. They are afraid that there stuff can not stand up on its own so it forces it will by using things from other areas.

Personally I view the actions apple been taken against the Pre as admitting it is scared and a chicken . It see the Pre as a threat so it wants to break it.

Of course you have a choice. You could chose not to buy an iPod and buy one of the many other devices on the market and then use the software you like. Show me where you are forced to buy an iPod?
 
i hate to think where all these Pre owners would be if they owned only a PC and Apple didn't make iTunes for Windows? mercy me, whatever would they sync their Pre to?
 
The point is that Palm's not hurting anyone, and you're defending Apple's deliberate limitation of interoperability, not our (consumers') interests.

Remember, you were the one to say Palm's actions were underhanded.

I'd reassess my principles if I were you.

Palm IS hurting someone :-

1. Apple are not being paid to support the Palm Pre so if for some reason iTunes changes and the Pre no longer works because it is not officially support the Palm Pre owners are hurt.

2. Apple gets bad press because Palm decide to put them in a position by breaking the way the USB codes work. Apple did not start this fiasco, Palm did by pretending that the Pre was an iPod.

The "no one gets hurt" excuse is often used when the law is broken, it still does not make it alright to do it.
 
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