Utah's Contact Tracing App Doesn't Use Apple's Exposure Notification API, Opts for Less Private GPS-Focused Approach

[Tumbleweed666]

Utah politicians, civil servants, and medical doctors don't know anything about GPS or Bluetooth or Android or anything like that. What I bet happened was they signed a contract with a political crony and/or the lowest bidder and/or the one with the most women/minority/veteran/small business/HUBZone points, who developed this app and doesn't want to do any more work, at least until the state gives them more cash.

Meanwhile, the procurement office civil servants didn't understand the subject well enough to write in a provision in the contract to force the contractor to go back and fix it. When the press started asking questions, they went back to the vendor, they just gave a BS answer (which doesn't even capitalize Bluetooth), which both sides are sticking to in order to cover their asses.

Sounds like youve been looking at UK politics, because that's what's happened here. (Political crony/relative, literally and the price is beyond outrageous, as in order of magnitude )
First reports of the app are that it sucks battery as everyone technical said it would because it has to keep waking up to keep the BT system active.
Rumours are they are looking at pivoting to the A-G API.
I believe Australia is also in the same position and looking at changing API as well

 

[LV426]

Considering Utah is a state that leans conservative, which seem to be the most against giving up their freedom and data to "big government", I'm kind of surprised they went the more intrusive route.

Right-wingers love to snoop on citizens, so nothing new there. The U.K. right wing government implemented the Snoopers’ Charter to spy on everyone’s telecoms; they are rolling out a similar privacy-hostile app; Drump wants to nobble message encryption... Need I say more?

 

[ani4ani]

Sounds like youve been looking at UK politics, because that's what's happened here. (Political crony/relative, literally and the price is beyond outrageous, as in order of magnitude )
First reports of the app are that it sucks battery as everyone technical said it would because it has to keep waking up to keep the BT system active.
Rumours are they are looking at pivoting to the A-G API.
I believe Australia is also in the same position and looking at changing API as well

So BT access has been done with Apples support so we can expect the same problem (if it really is a problem) with the A/G API?

 

[recoil80]

I understand states in the US have different legislations and can make independent decisions, but what's the point in having different apps across the US?
You still have people traveling from state to state, so having only one app would help managing the pandemic across the entire country.

 

[szw-mapple fan]

Did the app literally copy the icon from the iPhone health app, flip the gradient On the heart, and added weird blue waves? That‘s lazy, even for a government funded app.
[automerge]1589444177[/automerge]

I understand states in the US have different legislations and can make independent decisions, but what's the point in having different apps across the US?
You still have people traveling from state to state, so having only one app would help managing the pandemic across the entire country.

I think the end goal of Apple and Google’s implementation is a system toggle that will not require an app at all, which is even better.
[automerge]1589444522[/automerge]

It’s like the old adage, the best camera available is the one your carrying. Plenty of people criticising states and governments for going their own way, but remember some of these apps in various guises have been around for months; they are progressing with what they can use now; nothing precludes them switching if something “better” comes along later. Germany has developed their own app but plan to swap to the Apple / Google app if it and when it comes along.

As for the whole privacy v life argument, I’ll take life first and then I might get the opportunity to worry about privacy.

If that’s the equation, I would lean toward lives saved over privacy as well, but it doesn’t work that way. Americans are already much more suspicious than others about big government surveillance, and the inclusion of GPS tracking will further discourage people from voluntarily installing the app, make an already ineffective approach essentially useless.

 

[wigby]

Mindless hyperbole.

Like in wartime, when we deal with such big numbers, we can actually attribute death to the actions bur we also have to move on to deal with the living. If just two people die from this, the comment isn’t untrue but there are much bigger fish to fry and so that is what needs our attention, not tech vs. government app spats.

 

[bergert]

And your post, without some evidence to support it, is meaningless. Everyone is using the same silicon (from a couple of vendor choices) and the same satellites.

For Coivid tracking to work you need to detect a distance in range of 1-3 meters. GPS provides a resolution of 4.9m, clearly not suitable Covid tracing. Source:

GPS.gov: GPS Accuracy

Information about GPS accuracy

www.gps.gov

And then there is the small problem, that any app on iOS can only do GPS and Blutooth while in the foreground. But I'm very, very sure it will work just great.

 

[gnasher729]

What happens when there are ten of these apps all trying to use the bluetooth? Cause that’s the direction things are going in.

Apple says they will allow one app using the Apple / Google API per country. The App Store doesn't allow apps that are restricted to Utah, only restricted to a country (like USA), so this will be interesting.

 

[cocky jeremy]

LOL. No thanks.

 

[imnotarobot]

GPS is not 4m, best I can do outside is about 14m at home on my iPhone 11 Pro. Also if you have it on continuously it will eat your battery alive. Bluetooth on the other hand is very low battery usage. You can do one shot location calls every N seconds, if you space it out far enough the battery usage is not bad (source, writing exactly this functionality in an internal app right now). I bet these devs just did the easy thing, damned by the user's battery.

Also indoor in many buildings the GPS location goes to hell as the app cannot find any satellites. It will attempt to use any WIFI it finds in the area (if its mapped) or even cell towers (if cell is on) but no guarantees about accuracy. If you are inside and the quality is set to 10m, you battery will die even faster as it tries repeatedly to find a satellite. GPS is mostly useful for large areas outdoors, or driving down a road. Contact tracing with GPS is hokum.

 

[russell_314]

Want to make our voices heard? Download the Healthy Together app on the app store, then leave a 1-star rating, with a comment that this app does NOT respect privacy, and should implement the API that Apple and Google built.

App Store link: https://apps.apple.com/app/id1507570835

Thanks this is awesome. Only with reviews will developers know what needs to change on the app

 

[Websnapx2]

I'm not too keen on any of these contact tracing apps but if my state came up with this I'm sure not going to install it. I might trust Apple

"45,000 people have signed up for Utah's contact tracing app, which is about two percent of the state's population. Some estimates have indicated that to be effective, contact tracing apps need to be downloaded by 60 percent of a population."

They seem to be slightly short of their goal. 😂

They are in beta so it may go all the way up to 6%

 

[pweicks]

Considering Utah is a state that leans conservative, which seem to be the most against giving up their freedom and data to "big government", I'm kind of surprised they went the more intrusive route.

We are definitely more conservative here in Utah, but we’ve definitely started turning a slight shade of purple with all the “refugees” who are fleeing California’s socialism and coming here to live. Apparently they’re still voting for the same liberal policies when they get here that was the reason for them to leave CA in the first place...
[automerge]1589463536[/automerge]

It seems that most people who have the virus don't know they have it, the whole app thing seems pretty useless.

Yep, my cousin is the only one in our family who has it and he’s 100% asymptomatic. He was out playing tennis the day he got tested for it. That was about a week ago and still no symptoms.

 

[il_teo77]

Why does it need to be a trade-off between health risk and personal privacy when both Apple and Google went to the trouble of implementing those APIs?

Because there are friends of friends of friends that needed to be helped with a government contract?

 

[bb9]

Since the latest infection fatality rate studies demonstrate that 99.5% of us will survive an infection, what does your spreadsheet show as the absolute number who will die from Utah choosing one app or another?

You can find your answer at the CDC site:
TOTAL CASES 1,364,06121,467
TOTAL DEATHS 82,2461,426

Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) in the U.S.

View the number of confirmed cases COVID-19 in the United States.

www.cdc.gov

 

[Plutonius]

Considering Utah is a state that leans conservative, which seem to be the most against giving up their freedom and data to "big government", I'm kind of surprised they went the more intrusive route.

I'm sure that it's all about money.

 

[howywood]

Google and Apple: the two best tech companies in the world have developed a safe and effective contact tracing method that keeps information secure. Use it to keep your people safe.

Utah: nah we’re just gonna try something else.

 

[Plutonius]

You can find your answer at the CDC site:
TOTAL CASES 1,364,06121,467
TOTAL DEATHS 82,2461,426

Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) in the U.S.

View the number of confirmed cases COVID-19 in the United States.

www.cdc.gov

The interesting thing is that if you dig deeper on the CDC site, they are claiming 55K actual deaths from Covid-19.

The CDC page that you linked included what the CDC considered probable data (i.e. estimates).

 

[Dwalls90]

We are definitely more conservative here in Utah, but we’ve definitely started turning a slight shade of purple with all the “refugees” who are fleeing California’s socialism and coming here to live. Apparently they’re still voting for the same liberal policies when they get here that was the reason for them to leave CA in the first place...

I haven't heard of this before, but also don't keep up with Utah happenings. Is there a source/study on this migration of "refugees" from CA to UT? Would be curious to read.
[automerge]1589467808[/automerge]

Right-wingers love to snoop on citizens, so nothing new there. The U.K. right wing government implemented the Snoopers’ Charter to spy on everyone’s telecoms; they are rolling out a similar privacy-hostile app; Drump wants to nobble message encryption... Need I say more?

Interesting. I always thought right-wingers were against big government. This type of app is very big government, by giving up freedoms and data. Am I missing something?
[automerge]1589467833[/automerge]

These may be the fruits of massive lobbying. It’s the case whenever things don’t make sense.

You mean a government agency putting profits before the welfare of it's own citizens? Never! /s
[automerge]1589468015[/automerge]

I think this is the wrong approach. This gives the user an alarm. You ask for the test. You then meet the public health people, if you're positive, you gladly try to figure out what you might say. You go through the interview. Why would you find that bad? All you know now is that you're infected. Get in quarantine. Then we have an antibody test. So you can go back to work.

I'm not saying contract tracing, via whatever technology (though you're naive to think you can home-brew your own solution that will be better than one from Apple/Google), is bad. I'm saying it's interesting that UT, a state that leans right, and is against this type of technology that "infringes on freedom", decided to go the route of what is a much less privacy based system compared to Apple/Google's solution.

 

[MuGeN PoWeR]

What can you expect from Utah. yes i live in utah 😂

 

[incoherent_1]

It’s like the old adage, the best camera available is the one your carrying. Plenty of people criticising states and governments for going their own way, but remember some of these apps in various guises have been around for months; they are progressing with what they can use now; nothing precludes them switching if something “better” comes along later. Germany has developed their own app but plan to swap to the Apple / Google app if it and when it comes along.

As for the whole privacy v life argument, I’ll take life first and then I might get the opportunity to worry about privacy.

This x1000. Singapore release its own app many weeks ago, and shared it for free to any country who wanted to use it. Is it the best most perfect contact tracing app fathomable? Nope, but it’s a heck of a lot better than absolutely nothing, which was the alternative at the time.

 

[dugbug]

does macrumors have an idea of states that are making an apple/google exposure app? Any beta testers out there?

 

[lkalliance]

So BT access has been done with Apples support so we can expect the same problem (if it really is a problem) with the A/G API?

If I understand your question correctly, then no. The Google/Apple API allows apps that use it to access Bluetooth in the background, without being the front-most app and without the phone being awake. Those requirements do exist for apps that are not using the Apple/Google API: the app has to be actually awake and running to function, hence the power drain.

 

[DoctorTech]

My preference is the Apple/Google system as a privacy and security expert but...

Consider that both iOS and Android are locked down enough that Apple and Google are literally strong-arming governments onto this platform. I can make an argument that most governments do not understand technology enough to make the right call here but to have operating systems that are so locked down that they governments literally can't develop the software they'd like is a concern.

I sometimes describe myself as a member of the smallest minority in the USA, someone who has served in an elected state office who actually understands technology. I can say from personal experience that the VAST majority of legislators do not understand these type of issues. Look at who serves in State Legislators around the country. Farmers, school teachers, firemen, insurance agents, funeral directors, small business owners, etc. Most of them are honorable people who want to do the right thing (a relatively small percentage of them give all the others a bad name) but they simply don't understand these issues so they rely on others to advise them.

Some legislators have a trusted friend or a staffer who advise them. Others look to advice from a lobbyist they trust (there actually are some good lobbyists but again, the bad ones are the ones who make the news and taint the reputation of the entire occupation). Some look to other legislators they view as being more knowledgable on the topic (which may not be saying much). The directors of executive branch agencies SHOULD be much more knowledgable on technology but that is not always true either as some Governors appoint political hacks to lead executive branch agencies.

 

[pweicks]

I haven't heard of this before, but also don't keep up with Utah happenings. Is there a source/study on this migration of "refugees" from CA to UT? Would be curious to read.

The source is me, cuz I live in Utah. No studies.