Valve Drops Mac Support for SteamVR Less Than Three Years After WWDC 2017 Announcement

[Stella]

What does this even mean? It sounds like the classic here the tech now figure out a problem for it fallacy. What problem is AR trying to solve?

It’s not a fallacy, it’s the problem empedding AR at the moment.

There are plenty of problems to solve with AR.

Solutions are limited by technology and phones do not offer a great experience.

 

[Soi Dog]

Who at Apple really hates gaming? Apple Arcade barely makes a scratch in the billions being spent yearly in gaming. Why do they ignore that potential revenue.

Good question. It is true that the number of windows machines is way bigger. But if we take out all business computers and look only at private owned computers, then apples share is quite big and increasing.
Games are for private people. Had apple e.g a 2-3 times as thick Mac mini as it is today with interchangeable GPU, they would have a winner selling 10-100 times more than the actual Mac mini. Problem solved.

 

[ElectricPotato]

Honestly... who buys a Mac for gaming? It's like buying a station wagon to race.

The new PC vs Mac commercials: Ferrari vs. the Family Truckster. Reality has taken a turn for the weird.

 

[Black Magic]

I stand corrected on the Switch numbers. It lowers my numbers, but doesn't do a lot about the point I was trying to make. I agree about Metroid, although my backlog has been bit overwhelming for some time.



The lowest common denominator is the console. However, many game however are built for the PC and then they just start cutting things and lowering the resolution until they can get the specs needed for the target platform. That's not true for all games. Some games are despised in the PC game community because they artificially locked things like FPS or aspect ratio.

ok so let's dig into why PC gaming is a niche market and the logistics of owning said system.

1. PC Gamers miss out on tons of exclusives. if you do get them, it's years later and it's still a port negating the cutting edge hardware claim. Halo Series anyone?

2. With a console, everything is standardized so the family and friends can expect the same experience when we hop on to play. PC Gaming, you have to hope your buddies have a quality system and then they have to be semi IT savvy because they have to maintain Windows OS, firmware, drivers, hardware installations.

3. Maintaining a PC is a money black hole. Video Cards = $200 - $1000+. Folks will probably upgrade every 2 years. DDR RAM and the latest Intel CPU? Add more $$$$. Water cooled case? Yea, you get the picture.

4. Comfort. Does anybody really have a PC in their living room? Possible but unlikely. I go to the living room and plop my feet up to enjoy 4K gaming without worrying about ergonomic keyboards and mice.

5. Microsoft doesn't have it together. Back in the day, Microsoft had games for windows and they tried to make a unified gaming hub for Windows at the time. Like Google, they lose focus and abandon great ideas only to come back to copycat when someone like Vavle enters the space.

6. Extensive game library that PC gamers will never get to experience. Horizon Zero Dawn, God of War, Spider-Man? You guys are missing out on some great gaming moments and sadly you are spending a lot more money in doing so. I think someone mentioned Rise of the Tomb Raider which I actually beat on my console. Great experience and I didn't care or need a PC so I can see the latest shader of choice.

Console gaming wins hands down and it's not even close. Think about it. You are building thousand dollar PCs to enjoy ports of games we all played years ago.

 

[4jasontv]

ok so let's dig into why PC gaming is a niche market and the logistics of owning said system.

K.

1. PC Gamers miss out on tons of exclusives. if you do get them, it's years later and it's still a port negating the cutting edge hardware claim. Halo Series anyone?

All consoles miss out on exclusives. You can't play Link's Awakening on a PS4 or XBoxOnes. Meanwhile the Switch is getting a PC ported to it 8 years after it was released.

2. With a console, everything is standardized so the family and friends can expect the same experience when we hop on to play. PC Gaming, you have to hope your buddies have a quality system and then they have to be semi IT savvy because they have to maintain Windows OS, firmware, drivers, hardware installations.

Getting the same low end experience across the exact same device isn't really a selling point but rather a side effect. Only, what you just said isn't true. With different versions of the PS4, XboxOne and even portables like the 3DS there are different versions of the console that change the experience. As far as keeping Windows up-to-date, almost no one is updating firmware. It's not good, but it's true. Few people, who are not tech savvy actually upgrade their own hardware and where I live there is 6 places in 20 min that will upgrade my hardware and firmware for me. Drivers are automatic. All you have to do in Win10 is restart.

3. Maintaining a PC is a money black hole. Video Cards = $200 - $1000+. Folks will probably upgrade every 2 years. DDR RAM and the latest Intel CPU? Add more $$$$. Water cooled case? Yea, you get the picture.

People might upgrade every 2 years, but they don't have to. My VR PC has a 5 year old 980TI in it. It cost $500 and it still plays the newest AAA games just fine. No one needs new RAM or CPU to play the newest game. It's unlikely you would build or buy a PC these days that doesn't have enough ram to play any game you threw at it. Most games don't even come close to using a PC at 100%. So that's all money saved, no lost. And liquid cooled? That's mostly a cosmetic or enthusiast thing PCMasterRace thing... and honestly that 'you have to have a water-cooled PC' mentality is changing. That's like saying you can't help someone move unless you have a Hemi.

4. Comfort. Does anybody really have a PC in their living room? Possible but unlikely. I go to the living room and plop my feet up to enjoy 4K gaming without worrying about ergonomic keyboards and mice.

What does being in the living room have to do with comfort? What about the fact that controllers are far worse than a keyboard an mouse for both precision and comfort.

5. Microsoft doesn't have it together. Back in the day, Microsoft had games for windows and they tried to make a unified gaming hub for Windows at the time. Like Google, they lose focus and abandon great ideas only to come back to copycat when someone like Vavle enters the space.

This is meaningless jibrish. I can't for the life of me decipher what this numbers point is.

6. Extensive game library that PC gamers will never get to experience. Horizon Zero Dawn, God of War, Spider-Man? You guys are missing out on some great gaming moments and sadly you are spending a lot more money in doing so. I think someone mentioned Rise of the Tomb Raider which I actually beat on my console. Great experience and I didn't care or need a PC so I can see the latest shader of choice.

Despite the fact that Horizon Zero Dawn is coming to PC, you forget that it's not available on half the consoles. You don't get to claim consoles are better by pointing to a game that is only on one of them. As far as God of War and Spider-Man... you can play those games on your PC too. And then you point out that you really liked Tomb Raider even though you admit, correctly, that it would have been even better on PC. Not just because of the graphics, which are far far better, but also because the controls are better, and the frame rates are better.

And a lot more money? I don't think you have ever PC gamed before because your $60 game costs $8 on Steam. Meanwhile PCs don't have to repurchase a entire game library when they get new hardware. You keep all your games and because you have better hardware they typically load faster, and look better than they did before.

Console gaming wins hands down and it's not even close. Think about it. You are building thousand dollar PCs to enjoy ports of games we all played years ago.

You don't have to spend thousands of dollar to build a gaming PC. You don't even have to spend a grand. But when you do spend more money the games you already have play better. All your points require you to buy every console to get the benefits. You would be close to $2k to do that for this round of console generations, and you still wouldn't get to keep most of your older games. Think about it. You are repurchasing games you purchased on previous consoles.

All your points make no sense. PC's are cheaper, the games have longer life expectancies, and they get updated more frequently. The modding community ensures that even if a developer goes out of business or abandons a game the game will remain playable for decades. The controls are more comfortable and more reliable than consoles - but you can still use a controller, if you really want, and you can use any controller from any console or manufacture from any generation. You have the options for custom controllers for a genre or for a specific game if you want. And IAP is often a matter of convenience not a matter of lock-in.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

I do not understand people who game on consoles. A mystery to me.

Like anything, cheap and easy and good enough beats expensive and difficult and perfect most every time. All you have to worry about when gaming on a console is:
1. Do I have an internet connection?
2. Have I installed the latest system update?
3. Have I installed the latest game update?
A large number of average folks just don’t have the aptitude for anything more technical than that.

What gives with Apple's hatred toward NVidia?!

You’ll have to Google it, the hatred goes both ways. The info is out there and you’ll have to check a few different sites because most have an ax to grind against either Apple or Nvidia.

PC gaming is a niche,

Interesting and likely true I think. No matter how many PC games are being played right now, far more games are being played on Playstation, Xbox, Switch, iPhone, iPad, and Android.

 

[4jasontv]

Interesting and likely true I think. No matter how many PC games are being played right now, far more games are being played on Playstation, Xbox, Switch, iPhone, iPad, and Android.

I mean, it is a bit disingenuous to compare only one platform against all other platforms. iOS and android might play games, but they are not game consoles. If anything, you should include iOS and Android as part of the PC numbers. Otherwise you would have to include a paper and pencil as game consoles because you can play games with them too.

 

[0837990]

I didn’t realize that we had so many Windows fans around here, my comments weren’t meant to offend. I simply commented on the problems that Microsoft has had by supporting 20+ year old software. I also made the comments of the poor software updates that have affected computers not to include my own. I am a full time Mac user but I do have a nice PC that I built for running games because the Mac has never been a gaming machine unless you want to play a game of Lemmings. It was not my intention to offend anyone.

The NT kernel might be around 20 years old. The Unix kernel however is about 50 years old. macOS uses a variant of the Unix kernel at its core. I find it interesting that Apple is maintaining 50 year old technology. That makes Microsoft’s 20 year old technology by comparison very young!

 

[AndiG]

Everything started with the deprecation of OpenGL - Apple wanted every developer to use Metal instead of standard OpenGL/Vulkan. But Apple missed the point that the world is not an island and while Apple dominates (sort of) the mobile market it has no influence on the PC/Workstation sector.
Apple furthermore ignores NVidia and the new MacPro may be nice for youtube/instagram video editors - but it was a kick in the a.. for every developer. Next move was Apples move to 64bit only - a lot of old games/software simply stopped working. Apple has no smart solution to offer - like something like a docker 32bit container would have been.

So only god knows what Apple is going to do next and the Apple GPU drivers are really slow. Support of CUDA is not even possible. So exactly why should anyone port anything to macOS (speaking of GPU intensive software)?

 

[Black Magic]

K.


All consoles miss out on exclusives. You can't play Link's Awakening on a PS4 or XBoxOnes. Meanwhile the Switch is getting a PC ported to it 8 years after it was released.


Getting the same low end experience across the exact same device isn't really a selling point but rather a side effect. Only, what you just said isn't true. With different versions of the PS4, XboxOne and even portables like the 3DS there are different versions of the console that change the experience. As far as keeping Windows up-to-date, almost no one is updating firmware. It's not good, but it's true. Few people, who are not tech savvy actually upgrade their own hardware and where I live there is 6 places in 20 min that will upgrade my hardware and firmware for me. Drivers are automatic. All you have to do in Win10 is restart.


People might upgrade every 2 years, but they don't have to. My VR PC has a 5 year old 980TI in it. It cost $500 and it still plays the newest AAA games just fine. No one needs new RAM or CPU to play the newest game. It's unlikely you would build or buy a PC these days that doesn't have enough ram to play any game you threw at it. Most games don't even come close to using a PC at 100%. So that's all money saved, no lost. And liquid cooled? That's mostly a cosmetic or enthusiast thing PCMasterRace thing... and honestly that 'you have to have a water-cooled PC' mentality is changing. That's like saying you can't help someone move unless you have a Hemi.


What does being in the living room have to do with comfort? What about the fact that controllers are far worse than a keyboard an mouse for both precision and comfort.


This is meaningless jibrish. I can't for the life of me decipher what this numbers point is.



Despite the fact that Horizon Zero Dawn is coming to PC, you forget that it's not available on half the consoles. You don't get to claim consoles are better by pointing to a game that is only on one of them. As far as God of War and Spider-Man... you can play those games on your PC too. And then you point out that you really liked Tomb Raider even though you admit, correctly, that it would have been even better on PC. Not just because of the graphics, which are far far better, but also because the controls are better, and the frame rates are better.

And a lot more money? I don't think you have ever PC gamed before because your $60 game costs $8 on Steam. Meanwhile PCs don't have to repurchase a entire game library when they get new hardware. You keep all your games and because you have better hardware they typically load faster, and look better than they did before.


You don't have to spend thousands of dollar to build a gaming PC. You don't even have to spend a grand. But when you do spend more money the games you already have play better. All your points require you to buy every console to get the benefits. You would be close to $2k to do that for this round of console generations, and you still wouldn't get to keep most of your older games. Think about it. You are repurchasing games you purchased on previous consoles.

All your points make no sense. PC's are cheaper, the games have longer life expectancies, and they get updated more frequently. The modding community ensures that even if a developer goes out of business or abandons a game the game will remain playable for decades. The controls are more comfortable and more reliable than consoles - but you can still use a controller, if you really want, and you can use any controller from any console or manufacture from any generation. You have the options for custom controllers for a genre or for a specific game if you want. And IAP is often a matter of convenience not a matter of lock-in.

I can buy every console this generation (Switch, Xbox One, PS4) for less than $1000 versus buying 1 mediocre PC gaming rig for about $1000.

You really trying to hide the fact that Windows patching doesn't break stuff? Drivers dont break stuff? The fact that video cards die frequently due to heating issues? Owning a PC can be difficult especially if you dont have the skillset. You taking it to s shop to get work done increases the cost of ownership. Not a good thing.

Living room equals comfort. 50+ inch television gaming versus maybe 27"in Monitor? Do I really need to explain this? Computer desk and chair versus Sofa? You reaching here.

Console gaming is cheap too. The key is wait for the 60 day sales. I get games for free every month and Most of the games I get are $20 or less. Witcher complete edition for $9.99.

You are spouting lies when you claim PCs are cheaper than consoles and you know it. Build or buy me PC gaming system better than the PS4 for $250. You can't. Windows license alone eats up half of that.

Diablo 2 will still play on new PCs but the graphics dont look better. Hell, you can't even increase the resolution to match newer monitors because developers end support on older games. Where is the advantage again? If it even works on the PC because it may not be supported with 64 Bit hardware and OSes.

Come on now. Consoles are the only way to go for true gamers.

 

[4jasontv]

I can buy every console this generation (Switch, Xbox One, PS4) for less than $1000 versus buying 1 mediocre PC gaming rig for about $1000.

Not new. No you can't. The PS4 and then PS4 Pro is going to run you $700 alone. Which you would have to buy both of to do everything you claimed. You are going to pay $1100 for the Xbox One, One S, and One X. And $300 for the Switch. That's $2100. You can't upgrade the One to a One S or One X, so you gotta count them all if you want to play all the games with all the benefits and also claim the same experience as your friends.

Even if you are going to be like, now I only count getting one of each, you are still over $1100 (PS4 Pro @ $400, Xox One X @ $400, and Switch @ $300). If you start counting Black Friday deals PC prices is going to crush any console deals.

And just forget about game prices because that argument is ludicrous.

You really trying to hide the fact that Windows patching doesn't break stuff? Drivers dont break stuff? The fact that video cards die frequently due to heating issues? Owning a PC can be difficult especially if you dont have the skillset. You taking it to s shop to get work done increases the cost of ownership. Not a good thing.

Sure, rarely drivers break something. But they are also top priority for being fixed. And updates are optional, unlike consoles that will not let you play games unless you do the update.

And no, hardware failure is low. Under 1%. Taking it to the shop is an option. An option you really don't even have with consoles. The cost to fix a broken console is the price of a new console.

Living room equals comfort. 50+ inch television gaming versus maybe 27"in Monitor? Do I really need to explain this? Computer desk and chair versus Sofa? You reaching here.

You need to explain why offices don't have a couch instead of a chair. And you can PC game on a crappy $1000 50" tv, or you could pick from tons of options with monitors. Options, by the way, that look much clearer, have smoother motion, and take up more of your field of vision. And you can pick up these high end monitor for under $500 while a TV with 1/4 of the refresh rate and 20 times the input lag costs $2000.

Console gaming is cheap too. The key is wait for the 60 day sales. I get games for free every month and Most of the games I get are $20 or less. Witcher complete edition for $9.99.

Yeah. I don't wait for sales on PC because there are 4 dozeen stores to buy them and someone always has the game at or near its all time low. But good on you for paying 10 times what I paid for the Witcher on PC. With no DRM.

You are spouting lies when you claim PCs are cheaper than consoles and you know it. Build or buy me PC gaming system better than the PS4 for $250. You can't. Windows license alone eats up half of that.

OK that point has been made over and over on every gaming website. Go find any old you-tuber and you can find an answer to that one. You don't need Windows to PC game.

Diablo 2 will still play on new PCs but the graphics dont look better. Hell, you can't even increase the resolution to match newer monitors because developers end support on older games. Where is the advantage again? If it even works on the PC because it may not be supported with 64 Bit hardware and OSes.

OK come on now you are being silly. My point was that if you don't have cutting edge hardware for today's AAA game upgrading it later will give you an improvement over what you had with older hardware. You can't do that with consoles because you can't change the hardware. But since you mentioned Diablo 2, the fan community has been making mods to replace all the textures in HD. So yeah, you can get higher resolutions of the example you provided.

Come on now. Consoles are the only way to go for true gamers.

EyeRoll

 

[Black Magic]

Not new. No you can't. The PS4 and then PS4 Pro is going to run you $700 alone. Which you would have to buy both of to do everything you claimed.



Sure, rarely drivers break something. But they are also top priority for being fixed. And updates are optional, unlike consoles that will not let you play games unless you do the update.

And no, hardware failure is low. Under 1%. Taking it to the shop is an option. One that you really don't even with consoles. The cost to fix a broken console is the price of a new console.



You do. You need to explain why offices don't have a couch instead of a chair. And you can PC game on a crappy 50" tv, or you could pick from tons of options with monitors. That, by the way look far clearer, have smoother motion, and bigger when placed on a desk. And you can pick up a high end monitor for under $500 while a TV with 1/4 of the refresh rate and 20 times the input lag cost $2000.


Yeah. I don't wait for sales on PC. But good on you for paying 10 times what I paid for the Witcher on PC. With no DRM.



:EYEROLL: OK that point has been made over and over on every gaming website. Go find a youtuber and you can find an answer to that one.



OK come on now you are being silly. My point was that if you don't have cutting edge hardware for today's AAA game upgrading it later will give you an improvement over what you had with older hardware. You can't do that with consoles because you can't change the hardware. But since you mentioned Diablo 2, the fan community has been making mods to replace all the textures in HD. So yeah, you can get higher resolutions of the example you provided.


EyeRoll

Not new. No you can't. The PS4 and then PS4 Pro is going to run you $700 alone. Which you would have to buy both of to do everything you claimed. You are going to pay $1100 for the Xbox One, One S, and One X. And $300 for the Switch. That's $2100. You can't upgrade the One to a One S or One X, so you gotta count them all if you want to play all the games with all the benefits and also claim the same experience as your friends.

Even if you are going to be like, now I only count getting one of each, you are still over $1100 (PS4 Pro @ $400, Xox One X @ $400, and Switch @ $300). If you start counting Black Friday deals PC prices is going to crush any console deals.

And just forget about game prices because that argument is ludicrous.



Sure, rarely drivers break something. But they are also top priority for being fixed. And updates are optional, unlike consoles that will not let you play games unless you do the update.

And no, hardware failure is low. Under 1%. Taking it to the shop is an option. An option you really don't even have with consoles. The cost to fix a broken console is the price of a new console.



You need to explain why offices don't have a couch instead of a chair. And you can PC game on a crappy $1000 50" tv, or you could pick from tons of options with monitors. That, by the way look far clearer, have smoother motion, and bigger when placed on a desk. And you can pick up a high end monitor for under $500 while a TV with 1/4 of the refresh rate and 20 times the input lag costs $2000.


Yeah. I don't wait for sales on PC. But good on you for paying 10 times what I paid for the Witcher on PC. With no DRM.



OK that point has been made over and over on every gaming website. Go find any old you-tuber and you can find an answer to that one. You don't need Windows to PC game.



OK come on now you are being silly. My point was that if you don't have cutting edge hardware for today's AAA game upgrading it later will give you an improvement over what you had with older hardware. You can't do that with consoles because you can't change the hardware. But since you mentioned Diablo 2, the fan community has been making mods to replace all the textures in HD. So yeah, you can get higher resolutions of the example you provided.


EyeRoll

Again you are trying to contort and twist comments to support your flimsy analysis. Let's just stick to facts. You only need the PS4 or the PS4 Pro not both. They both play the same games, one just does so better for 4K televisions. Xbox is the same thing. so brand new PS4 $250, Nintendo Switch $250, X-Box One $250 or less due to many sales as MS is trying to empty inventory. Even substituting the normal versions with the 4K versions still is better than getting a mediocre gaming rig for like $1100. Do you really deny this?

Windows Updates are optional? Another mistruth. A few months ago, Windows 10 users got a patch that deleted user data.

So you got Witcher off Torrents or you got it free? Sounds suspect either way.

YouTubers? its simple math which is why you deflected. Windows OS or not.

Are you still waiting on Halo 3?

Oh and to top it all off, something as basic as talking on a headset becomes a tech support nightmare for PC gamers. let me give you a scenario to explain. You and your 2 cousins want to play Diablo 3 online on the PC. Your cousins have to figure out how to configure bluetooth or where to plug in the cable. From there you probably have to download and configure a chat platform which could take up to 30 minutes before you are all playing. With the PS4/XBox, create a party, invite, start up game. Done. 3 minutes tops!

 

[4jasontv]

Again you are trying to contort and twist comments to support your flimsy analysis. Let's just stick to facts. You only need the PS4 or the PS4 Pro not both. They both play the same games, one just does so better for 4K televisions. Xbox is the same thing. so brand new PS4 $250, Nintendo Switch $250, X-Box One $250 or less due to many sales as MS is trying to empty inventory. Even substituting the normal versions with the 4K versions still is better than getting a mediocre gaming rig for like $1100. Do you really deny this?

A mediocre gaming rig costs $300 not $1100.

You were the one that made claims about having the same experience as others. I just went with it. And you are not quoting actual console prices.

Windows Updates are optional? Another mistruth. A few months ago, Windows 10 users got a patch that deleted user data.

Yes, they are. You can turn them off. Also, that update that deleted data effected almost no one, and those it did effect could simply roll back and recover everything.

So you got Witcher off Torrents or you got it free? Sounds suspect either way.

GOG. It was $0.99.

YouTubers? its simple math which is why you deflected. Windows OS or not.

PC components are updated so rapidly the prices drop faster than previous console support.

Are you still waiting on Halo 3?

I tried Halo. It's the 007 of Xbox. Nostalgic fans trying to tell everyone it's the GOAT of games. I prefer games with good controls. Halo is just Marathon ruined by suits. I'd rather play that new AC:V on PC because if it's like last few it is going to play like trash on consoles.

Oh and to top it all off, something as basic as talking on a headset becomes a tech support nightmare for PC gamers. let me give you a scenario to explain. You and your 2 cousins want to play Diablo 3 online on the PC. Your cousins have to figure out how to configure bluetooth or where to plug in the cable. From there you probably have to download and configure a chat platform which could take up to 30 minutes before you are all playing. With the PS4/XBox, create a party, invite, start up game. Done. 3 minutes tops!

Chat support? Jeepers. Voice chat is the new version of Zawinski's Law. Most online games have a chat service built in. Diablo 3 has built in voice chat, as does every Steam game. But yeah there are lots of chat options on PC, as opposed to the single PAID option on SOME consoles. I will take my 100 PC chat agnostic options over one proprietary paid solution. I have used the chat built into diablo 3 to talk with someone while we played boarderlands. Unless someone is brand new to gaming the have multiple chat options available. Fo And I am not sure I would enjoy playing a fast paced game with someone who doesn't know how to plug in an audio jack.

 

[Black Magic]

Just looked at Bestbuy and the prices are right. Give or take $50 if you want 1TB hard drive. You can put in a drive of your choice after the fact though.

Let's Spec out a PC gaming rig and you put a cost on it:

Intel i7 or i9 or AMD Ryzen CPU.....Couple hundred right there unless you gonna tell me you will work with an Intel i3...

16GB DDR Ram? Couple Hundred right there.....

Video Card?

Motherboard?

Case?

Power supply?

and after all that you still need a monitor, keyboard and mouse. For the rest of us. $250-$399 and done deal for 10 years. Final word!

Also, I can RMA a console and get it fixed for free. Thanks!

 

[scaramoosh]

Until Apple embrace the GPU, gaming will never be a thing on it.

 

[4jasontv]

Just looked at Bestbuy and the prices are right. Give or take $50 if you want 1TB hard drive. You can put in a drive of your choice after the fact though.

There is no $250 Switch at Best Buy or anywhere. It's $300.
There is no $250 PS4 at Best Buy or anywhere. It's $300 for the old one and $400 for the Pro.
There is no $250 Xbox One at Best Buy or anywhere. It's $300 for the S and $400 for the X.

And good luck actually finding a store with them.

Let's Spec out a PC gaming rig and you put a cost on it:

OK.

Intel i7 or i9 or AMD Ryzen CPU.....Couple hundred right there unless you gonna tell me you will work with an Intel i3...

Yeah, i5 is probably sufficient. No one needs an i7 or i9 for gaming. An i3 would work, yeah. Under $100. Or you could save a little and go AMD.

16GB DDR Ram? Couple Hundred right there.....

What? What.... What are you talking about? 16 GB of ram is about $60... But you could game with 8 GB if you quit all your other apps first.

Video Card?

Yeah, most expensive part. Maybe, $150. I bet you can get it closer to $100.

Motherboard?

Let's say $85. But that's just to make sure you can upgrade cheaper down the road.

Case?

$35-$40?

Power Supply?

Again, $35-40.

and after all that you still need a monitor, keyboard and mouse. For the rest of us. $250-$399 and done deal for 10 years. Final word!

Throw in $40 for a hard drive. Of course, you can save even more buy purchasing everything together. As for keyboard and mouse PC gaming isn't like consoles. You don't have to replace the controllers every time you upgrade your hardware. But, lets say $10 combined for keyboard and mouse. They won't be the best quality, but they will be more comfortable than the child size PS and Nintendo controllers. Or you could use the controller on your old console that you will never want to touch again.

Of course these low end console prices are at the end of their life so you are not getting 10 years of support from them. You are not getting 10 more years of games.

I bet I could go cheaper if we are shooting for console level performance. 60 FPS at HD resolutions isn't that hard to drive anymore.

And monitor? Really? Either include the cost of television with your console or exclude the monitor.

Also, I can RMA a console and get it fixed for free. Thanks!

That's almost true! If it's been less than a year, and has ZERO scratches, and you have the original receipt, you can mail it to them at your expense and they might send you a repaired unit back in 12 to 16 weeks with refurbished part. Of course, you will lose any saved games or content download. Hopefully that subscription you paid for the right to play your games hasn't expired before you get it back. RMA ALL THE WAY!

 

[ssgbryan]

Just looked at Bestbuy and the prices are right. Give or take $50 if you want 1TB hard drive. You can put in a drive of your choice after the fact though.

Let's Spec out a PC gaming rig and you put a cost on it:

Intel i7 or i9 or AMD Ryzen CPU.....Couple hundred right there unless you gonna tell me you will work with an Intel i3...

16GB DDR Ram? Couple Hundred right there.....

Video Card?

Motherboard?

Case?

Power supply?

and after all that you still need a monitor, keyboard and mouse. For the rest of us. $250-$399 and done deal for 10 years. Final word!

Also, I can RMA a console and get it fixed for free. Thanks!

So, you are gaming on an original Xbox?

How is 30FPS working out for you?

What ever gaming system you are currently on, you won't be playing new AAA games on it 6 months after the PS5 and Xbox (whatever) drops. Those will be 8 core/16 threaded AMD systems with RDNA graphics. That will be the new baseline going forward.

Here is an inexpensive, but fairly typical gaming rig:
Ryzen 5 1600AF - 6 cores/12 threads $85. The AF refresh is a Zen+ part, AMD still has a contract with Global Foundries.
B450 Motherboard $99 - MSI Tomahawk is a pretty good brand at this price point.
16Gb of ram $73
Video Card: RX 580 8Gb ($150) This is your minimum for 1080p, high refresh gamers (about 60% of PC users)
Case - $40 - $50 (It is a box to hold your parts)
PSU 500 watt Bronze - $55 (EVGA makes a real good one)
1Tb SSD - $100 Sabrent Rocket.
BTW, a Monitor - 27" 1080p 240Hz refresh is about $150. Or just use that 50" 4k tv from Mal-Wart that is under $300.

At this point, I can upgrade if I want, when I want. Most folks are on a 5 year cycle with some do a mid-life video card refresh about half way through.

By the time 6 cores/12 threads won't be enough, an 8 or 12 core CPU will be pretty cheap.

At this point, you can game @1080p high refresh - Go with an XT 5700 and you are gaming @1440p, high refresh.

When Big Navi drops - 4K gaming is yours now.

You can game on a whole lot less - My game boxen is a 9 year old HP Z210. Has a 4 core/8 thread Xeon running at 3.5Ghz. I have a RX570 (8Gb), a 1Tb SSD & 32Gb of ram. Total cost was $400 and 2 hours to swap the original CPU, GPU, Hard drive, Ram; Give it that Tech Yes Lovin'; install Windows and my Steam Library (153 games). I play on a 50" 60Hz monitor, and my games are on high resolution.

 

[Black Magic]

So, you are gaming on an original Xbox?

How is 30FPS working out for you?

What ever gaming system you are currently on, you won't be playing new AAA games on it 6 months after the PS5 and Xbox (whatever) drops. Those will be 8 core/16 threaded AMD systems with RDNA graphics. That will be the new baseline going forward.

Here is an inexpensive, but fairly typical gaming rig:
Ryzen 5 1600AF - 6 cores/12 threads $85. The AF refresh is a Zen+ part, AMD still has a contract with Global Foundries.
B450 Motherboard $99 - MSI Tomahawk is a pretty good brand at this price point.
16Gb of ram $73
Video Card: RX 580 8Gb ($150) This is your minimum for 1080p, high refresh gamers (about 60% of PC users)
Case - $40 - $50 (It is a box to hold your parts)
PSU 500 watt Bronze - $55 (EVGA makes a real good one)
1Tb SSD - $100 Sabrent Rocket.
BTW, a Monitor - 27" 1080p 240Hz refresh is about $150. Or just use that 50" 4k tv from Mal-Wart that is under $300.

At this point, I can upgrade if I want, when I want. Most folks are on a 5 year cycle with some do a mid-life video card refresh about half way through.

By the time 6 cores/12 threads won't be enough, an 8 or 12 core CPU will be pretty cheap.

At this point, you can game @1080p high refresh - Go with an XT 5700 and you are gaming @1440p, high refresh.

When Big Navi drops - 4K gaming is yours now.

You can game on a whole lot less - My game boxen is a 9 year old HP Z210. Has a 4 core/8 thread Xeon running at 3.5Ghz. I have a RX570 (8Gb), a 1Tb SSD & 32Gb of ram. Total cost was $400 and 2 hours to swap the original CPU, GPU, Hard drive, Ram; Give it that Tech Yes Lovin'; install Windows and my Steam Library (153 games). I play on a 50" 60Hz monitor, and my games are on high resolution.

Sounds like a whole lot of cheap no name brand parts that won't last. If you gonna do SSD drive, you gotta go Samsung EVO or you wasting your time. DDR ram is the same.

I'd post pictures of the best buy in my region but Im guessing the prices are marked up where you are at. The X-Box One S is $250 here easy.

 

[panjandrum]

1. PC Gamers miss out on tons of exclusives. if you do get them, it's years later and it's still a port negating the cutting edge hardware claim.

Console gaming wins hands down and it's not even close. Think about it. You are building thousand dollar PCs to enjoy ports of games we all played years ago.

Hate to tell you this, but your entire post is every bit as fanboy as the whole Apple vs. Windows thing. It's a horrible way to look at the world and it doesn't do yourself or anyone else any good. It just leads to companies being able to sell crap to people who "believe." Different things are, shockingly, actually better for different people. Crazy. Radical. Huh?

The reality is that current consoles are indeed great, and gaming PCs are also great, and they tend to be great at different things. Consoles are simple and easy to use and are probably the best solution for most casual gamers and of course for those who absolutely have to have any particular exclusive title or series of titles. Windows PCs are still Windows, and especially with all of Microsoft's forced-and-then-botched Win10 updates they can be a freaking nightmare to keep running right. But there are also a ton of positives around the PC end of it, most notably raw power and flexibility - and any "beyond casual" gamer will probably end up either going all PC, or going PC and console. One quick example of what you didn't do on a console, but I did on PC (and remember, I agree that consoles can be excellent, I'm pointing this out only to counterpoint your clearly fanboy stance regarding consoles) - For the approximately the past ten years I've played every single game (outside a handful of classics ported to iOS like Baldur's Gate) stereoscopically. I got my start in that on GT5 on a console - PS3, and the moment I did it I knew I could never go back. I immediately invested in a card for my Mac Pro 1,1 (back then) that could handle it and TriDef software and began playing all my games in 3D on a 720P 3D DLP projector. Freaking amazing. Eventually I built a dedicated game rig or two of course, and they really aren't all that expensive to build if you aren't crazy about it. My current rig, with liquid cooling, totals well under $2500 even with the recent $750 upgrade to the Video card, and it now powers my VR equipment - a Pimax 5K+. This is far, far wider FOV and higher resolution than any VR available on consoles, and I'm using vorpX and SuperDepth3D to turn older games into VR. Currently replaying Fallout 3 in full VR, which is freaking amazing. Consoles also support a far reduced range of other hardware. For example I own 3 different sets of racing SIM FFB wheels, and only ONE of them would be supported on one brand of modern console, despite all being perfectly good equipment. They all work great on my Windows gaming rig. I also mod games like crazy, something which only a handful of console titles support.

Would I love to have the best of both worlds? The wonderful simplicity and "it just works" part of consoles, combined with the power and flexibility of a Windows PC? Of course. Would I love to own both? Sure? And for a long a while I did, but stopped when the console manufacturers abandoned all but one of my FFB wheels (those are NOT cheap, and I don't want to support companies who think I'll just run out and throw down another $500 because they can't be bothered to include support in their latest-gen consoles). Sadly, this is something that Apple could actually provide if they wanted to. The Mac OS remains head-and-shoulders above Windows 10 in terms of stability and long-term reliability. The Mac, if Apple had the will to do so, could be nearly as simple and reliable as a console, while being just as powerful as a Windows PC. It would take a hell of a lot of work on Apple's part, and it would be many years of work, but it's certainly possible, at least from a technological standpoint.

Just like so many things in life, what's best for one person, isn't best for another person, and no amount of fanboying will change that.

 

[Black Magic]

Hate to tell you this, but your entire post is every bit as fanboy as the whole Apple vs. Windows thing. It's a horrible way to look at the world and it doesn't do yourself or anyone else any good. It just leads to companies being able to sell crap to people who "believe." Different things are, shockingly, actually better for different people. Crazy. Radical. Huh?

The reality is that current consoles are indeed great, and gaming PCs are also great, and they tend to be great at different things. Consoles are simple and easy to use and are probably the best solution for most casual gamers and of course for those who absolutely have to have any particular exclusive title or series of titles. Windows PCs are still Windows, and especially with all of Microsoft's forced-and-then-botched Win10 updates they can be a freaking nightmare to keep running right. But there are also a ton of positives around the PC end of it, most notably raw power and flexibility - and any "beyond casual" gamer will probably end up either going all PC, or going PC and console. One quick example of what you didn't do on a console, but I did on PC (and remember, I agree that consoles can be excellent, I'm pointing this out only to counterpoint your clearly fanboy stance regarding consoles) - For the approximately the past ten years I've played every single game (outside a handful of classics ported to iOS like Baldur's Gate) stereoscopically. I got my start in that on GT5 on a console - PS3, and the moment I did it I knew I could never go back. I immediately invested in a card for my Mac Pro 1,1 (back then) that could handle it and TriDef software and began playing all my games in 3D on a 720P 3D DLP projector. Freaking amazing. Eventually I built a dedicated game rig or two of course, and they really aren't all that expensive to build if you aren't crazy about it. My current rig, with liquid cooling, totals well under $2500 even with the recent $750 upgrade to the Video card, and it now powers my VR equipment - a Pimax 5K+. This is far, far wider FOV and higher resolution than any VR available on consoles, and I'm using vorpX and SuperDepth3D to turn older games into VR. Currently replaying Fallout 3 in full VR, which is freaking amazing. Consoles also support a far reduced range of other hardware. For example I own 3 different sets of racing SIM FFB wheels, and only ONE of them would be supported on one brand of modern console, despite all being perfectly good equipment. They all work great on my Windows gaming rig. I also mod games like crazy, something which only a handful of console titles support.

Would I love to have the best of both worlds? The wonderful simplicity and "it just works" part of consoles, combined with the power and flexibility of a Windows PC? Of course. Would I love to own both? Sure? And for a long a while I did, but stopped when the console manufacturers abandoned all but one of my FFB wheels (those are NOT cheap, and I don't want to support companies who think I'll just run out and throw down another $500 because they can't be bothered to include support in their latest-gen consoles). Sadly, this is something that Apple could actually provide if they wanted to. The Mac OS remains head-and-shoulders above Windows 10 in terms of stability and long-term reliability. The Mac, if Apple had the will to do so, could be nearly as simple and reliable as a console, while being just as powerful as a Windows PC. It would take a hell of a lot of work on Apple's part, and it would be many years of work, but it's certainly possible, at least from a technological standpoint.

Just like so many things in life, what's best for one person, isn't best for another person, and no amount of fanboying will change that.

I enjoyed reading your post and you really supported most of my points. Sadly, anyone that doesn’t have a neutral position in something is considered a fanboy. I just voice my thoughts and one size doesn’t fit all. It may shock you, but I once was an avid PC Gamer. My comments are based on my experiences and my preference that may help folks considering options.

 

[Agent OrangeZ]

At this point, you can game @1080p high refresh - Go with an XT 5700 and you are gaming @1440p, high refresh.

Thanks for the mention. I appreciate it.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

I mean, it is a bit disingenuous to compare only one platform against all other platforms.

I don’t think it’s disingenuous. It doesn’t tell the whole story, no, but it IS an interesting way to look at electronic gaming. There WAS a time when it was ALL done on PC. There was a time when it was MOSTLY done on PC. With consoles increasing in quality, these days a console can offer a suitably engaging experience such that PC’s aren’t needed for very many.

Now, given that gaming “at a certain high level of quality” is still done only on PC, that’s only because the components have yet to become mass market commoditized. But, the number of folks gaming at that level, are indeed quite small compared to all PC users. In most cases, folks are using a general purpose rig for gaming, not something specially built for gaming.

 

[opeter]

I am a full time Mac user but I do have a nice PC that I built for running games because the Mac has never been a gaming machine unless you want to play a game of Lemmings.

Oh, I didn't know that. And it seems, that companies like Aspyr, Feral Interactive etc. didn't know that either. What they were thinking, when they were porting games to the Mac platform?

 

[Carles20vt]

It will be the never-ending discussion like '90 Nintendo vs. Sega or nowadays Sony vs Microsoft vs Nintendo. Depends on your actual needs.

Ironically, I use the Mac for indy game programming. But, when I play at games, I prefer to use the Switch or the PS4 than a computer. When I was young and have more time, I often used a gaming PC for play to type of games.

I like do programming stuff on a MacBook Pro because it's a pleasure to use the screen (retina) and the touchpad and other reasons to work on it. It's not important for me to develop 120fps but the sufficient to work on it and test the game sequences. But it's true that the games perform better on a PC, so the team have mixed hardware (Mac and PC) to perform a different kind of tasks.

 

[-BigMac-]

I blame Nvidia for this. Much of the performance and capability of a GPU is in its drivers, and Nvidia's drivers have been garbage on MacOS for many years. I think Apple finally gave up and is going all AMD to get away from that.

Mmmm well Nvidia released comments saying they have the RTX Drivers ready, but Apple isn't allowing them. This was like a year ago now