Valve Drops Mac Support for SteamVR Less Than Three Years After WWDC 2017 Announcement

[connormw]

This doesn't represent all computers, just those that have Steam installed. And since most games on Steam are for Windows it makes sense that it be biased in that direction.

But the point isn't to represent all computers: there are hundreds of millions of machines of all OSs that will never have Steam installed on them.

The point is what is the breakdown of Steam users by their platform of choice. Even when there is a somewhat substantial macOS-compatible catalog, 95% of the users don't run Steam on macOS. A lot of that is due to lack of developer interest in publishing for Mac. But, on the same hand, the lack of developer interest stems from the lack of support from Apple for supporting a wide range of graphical APIs (removing OpenGL was the death knell - no major developer is going to spend all the time porting to Metal for a measly percentage of sales).

 

[4jasontv]

But the point isn't to represent all computers: there are hundreds of millions of machines of all OSs that will never have Steam installed on them.

The point is what is the breakdown of Steam users by their platform of choice. Even when there is a somewhat substantial macOS-compatible catalog, 95% of the users don't run Steam on macOS. A lot of that is due to lack of developer interest in publishing for Mac. But, on the same hand, the lack of developer interest stems from the lack of support from Apple for supporting a wide range of graphical APIs (removing OpenGL was the death knell - no major developer is going to spend all the time porting to Metal for a measly percentage of sales).

So... what I said?

 

[ssgbryan]

I think the truth is that PC gaming hardly matters. I think you will be hard pressed to find a decent percentage of users in their 30's who game on a PC. I'm not saying it's bad or dumb or anything, it's just changed. And if you enjoy it, awesome. But I don't know a single person who games on a PC anymore (I sued to have at least 20 friends who did). I can't imagine it's significant number of people. And with people under 35 or 25, I'd guess it's almost statistically insignificant compared to iOS gaming much less X-box or Playstation. So, I think it makes sense to drop support and I'm not sure why Apple ever cared about it. For the people building 'gaming rigs' yes, build a Windows gaming rig just as you have always done. The Mac never did this or cared about that market. And I won't even add a snarky comment like "Enjoy living in 1990."

I suggest you get a slightly larger circle of friends. I am 56 - still game every day.

There are people that play mobile games - and then there are those that game.
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When people use the word "VR". They are always thinking "gaming". VR is a gateway to a lot more - a potential that hasn't even been begun to be realized.

For Valve to abandon the platform (Mac) on which a lot of creatives work is simply and plainly and even obscenely stupid... I mean STUPID!

It isn't actually a lot of creatives anymore. We left.

It is almost impossible to do 3d work on Mac - the software simply isn't available on OSX.

 

[yurc]

You've not used Windows 10 then. Windows 10 is significantly more stable than prior versions of Windows.

I am running W10 box because SolidWorks on Mac is almost nonexistent, not mentioned certified drivers, and running very stable, but I controlling updates by taking this machine online when it needed. When working I am disconnecting all network connection to avoid any surprise. Generally, doing proper CAD and 3D CG is impossible for me now (I have 5,1 Mac Pro) but I cannot use them for that task.

For bonus, my Quadro still able to fire up modern games after working session with decent performance.

Not the least surprising when Apple's hardware for gaming is GARBAGE.

To make matters worse, Apple always needed a Mac Pro with iMac internals that allowed for PCIe expansion and upgradability with gaming capable GPUs since Apple has NEVER provided a top of the line GPU. Apple does not (and never has) believed in choice so they've preferred to give all of YOU the finger instead. None of you should be surprised by this.

Anyone commenting in this thread that wants their Mac and be able to game should build a Hackintosh and quit crying.

Absolutely.

 

[4jasontv]

I think the truth is that PC gaming hardly matters. I think you will be hard pressed to find a decent percentage of users in their 30's who game on a PC. I'm not saying it's bad or dumb or anything, it's just changed. And if you enjoy it, awesome. But I don't know a single person who games on a PC anymore (I sued to have at least 20 friends who did). I can't imagine it's significant number of people. And with people under 35 or 25, I'd guess it's almost statistically insignificant compared to iOS gaming much less X-box or Playstation. So, I think it makes sense to drop support and I'm not sure why Apple ever cared about it. For the people building 'gaming rigs' yes, build a Windows gaming rig just as you have always done. The Mac never did this or cared about that market. And I won't even add a snarky comment like "Enjoy living in 1990."

Steam, alone, had 95 million active users in 2019. Not counting GOG, Epic, Xbox (PC), Blizzard, uPlay, etc. Not PC sales, or PC game hardware. Active Steam users. People who played a game on steam during the year of 2019.

Compare that to Sony who only sold 100 million PS4 from 2014 to 2019, Microsoft sold 47 million xboxes from 2013 to 2019, and Nintendo sold 19 million Switches since 2017. That's 36% of the market in one year while giving everyone else 7 years of extra time to build up sales.

Also, that assumed every console sale was a new customer, and not a replacement. Which is unlikely since all three consoles had upgrades that would pad those numbers. The Steam number doesn't count computer replacements just users who played a game in 2019. Also, it assumed everyone who purchased a console used it last year while the Steam numbers don't include people who have Steam but didn't play a game since 2018.

 

[springsup]

Not enough Macs have the GPU to handle it. That’s the main reason.

The rest is likely due to VR being such a small market in general. Most home VR players will be gaming enthusiasts, who will likely not be running macOS.

 

[connormw]

So... what I said?

My point was that saying it's biased in a direction because the survey only looked at Steam users is irrelevant. The only representative data sample that matters for Valve is the computers that run Steam. I was commenting on the fact that, despite a massive "back catalog", new releases still aren't coming out for macOS because the market share for Mac is abysmal. Doesn't matter if the numbers are biased in any direction - only direction that matters is the platform users choose, and Apple has made the opposite of an attempt to improve that.

 

[4jasontv]

My point was that saying it's biased in a direction because the survey only looked at Steam users is irrelevant. The only representative data sample that matters for Valve is the computers that run Steam. I was commenting on the fact that, despite a massive "back catalog", new releases still aren't coming out for macOS because the market share for Mac is abysmal. Doesn't matter if the numbers are biased in any direction - only direction that matters is the platform users choose, and Apple has made the opposite of an attempt to improve that.

I’m confused. You keep repeating what I said, but the way you say it makes me think, you think, we have different opinions.

 

[DeepIn2U]

Steam, alone, had 95 million active users in 2019. Not counting GOG, Epic, Xbox (PC), Blizzard, uPlay, etc. Not PC sales, or PC game hardware. Active Steam users. People who played a game on steam during the year of 2019.

Compare that to Sony who only sold 100 million PS4 from 2014 to 2019, Microsoft sold 47 million xboxes from 2013 to 2019, and Nintendo sold 19 million Switches since 2017. That's 36% of the market in one year while giving everyone else 7 years of extra time to build up sales.

Also, that assumed every console sale was a new customer, and not a replacement. Which is unlikely since all three consoles had upgrades that would pad those numbers. The Steam number doesn't count computer replacements just users who played a game in 2019. Also, it assumed everyone who purchased a console used it last year while the Steam numbers don't include people who have Steam but didn't play a game since 2018.

according to Forbes,

Nintendo Switch “sold 961,543 units for the week ending December 28, 2019 to bring its lifetime sales to 49.79 million units worldwide. This compares to the SNES with lifetime sales of 49.10 million units.”

I'm still upset of no Metroid Prime/Prime Echo's evolution for the Switch ... else I'd be playing on it right now.

Next year I really think console games (XBox X Series or it's high end model & PS5 and it's iterations) may actually take over PC gaming for an entire year before hardware catches up. I'm half joking here.

 

[Black Magic]

You can't upgrade them like a PC, which limits what devs can do with the hardware, and as a result, limits the kind of experience one can have on the platform. I can easily put together a PC which destroys a console. Yes, for a price, but the point is that gamers shouldn't be locking themselves to a hardware configuration which cannot be upgraded. PC devs benefit from being able to include intense graphics, and usually allow players to turn them off if the hardware can't handle them. A console can handle what it can handle, and you'll likely never know what the dev didn't include because of its limitations.

It does create a sort of illusion of performance, but as I said, it comes with a price.

the problem with your build a pc gaming rig is that it causes fragmentation and most games are built for the lowest common denominator. There are the rare tech demo games that force you to buy the latest video card to help you justify the purchase.

With the consoles, you get great hardware year 1 with all games optimized for it through out the life cycle. No need to upgrade just for a game or two and everything is standardize. Console gaming is the only way to go. You will figure out after you spent a few thousand.

 

[Maetzle]

I'm doing most of my gaming on console these days (or via bootcamp), but whilst I generally don't enjoy cloud gaming - GeforceNow worked pretty well for me since release. Just a bummer so many games were taken off the service.

 

[0837990]

I think Apple is trying to get there by trying to make Metal a standard. Apple isn't a fan of latching on to someone else's platform especially when they have to deal with all the bugs and such. Truth be told if I was a game developer, the only places I'd be developing for would be PlayStation and X-Box. You have to go where the gamers are. The PC gaming market is a niche and not enough money to make.

You speak of Windows like its a great thing that it supports code from twenty years ago? That is why it has been unstable and littered with vulnerabilities. Microsoft would love to start fresh with a new OS from the ground up but their hands are tied. I prefer the Apple route with modern code and minimal problems. If I want to game, I get on a gaming system that cost as much or less than a great video card and can enjoy games for 7 plus years without worrying about drivers and new PC parts.
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Explain the gaming on console problem please?

Eh, the PC gaming market is absolutely not a niche. Steam alone has as many active players as the PlayStation Network has. And that is only Steam, and doesn’t include users of Epic Store, GOG, Origin, Xbox App on PC, Battle.net, and more...

Get real. PC gaming is the biggest gaming market by far.

 

[opeter]

My computer is fine, I’m referring to the software update issues that Microsoft has been having for the past few months.

I don't have such problems on Windows (build 1909). I have all the latest updates installed.

 

[arvinsim]

Not the least surprising when Apple's hardware for gaming is GARBAGE.

To make matters worse, Apple always needed a Mac Pro with iMac internals that allowed for PCIe expansion and upgradability with gaming capable GPUs since Apple has NEVER provided a top of the line GPU. Apple does not (and never has) believed in choice so they've preferred to give all of YOU the finger instead. None of you should be surprised by this.

Anyone commenting in this thread that wants their Mac and be able to game should build a Hackintosh and quit crying.

Building a Hackintosh still doesn't solve the issue of software support. It doesn't make games magically run on MacOS.

 

[Shirasaki]

Heck.... iPad Pro gaming is much better than Mac imo. My iPad Pro 2018 has become my exclusive mobile gaming machine and iPhone has been left behind biting the dust in this regard. While most players complain and struggle with various performance issues, my iPad Pro just scream the game like nothing happens. Battery drain is fast, but iPhone can’t even run the game smoothly and battery drain is even faster.

Steam is definitely making the right choice to ditch Mac. Maybe several years later Mac somehow can game, but certainly not now and not in the near future.

Also, boot camp “solution” will soon become a thing of the past for obvious reason, even with Windows 10 on ARM support. Fortunately, a decent Windows gaming rig nowadays don’t necessarily need to burn over $1000 for decent performance, though VR still need $2k for enough GPU power.

 

[Soi Dog]

It is only a question or market share, Macs can be great for gaming. OS is super stable, Metal is pretty fast. Toxic comment like yours are another reason.
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Thanks god they did this, hard choices are ofter the good ones.

Maybe from a software perspective, but as far as hardware goes, half of the Mac lineup is hamstrung by only having (crap) integrated Intel graphics. No amount of Metal revisions will help that.

Exactly. I am on a Mac mini 2012 maxed out with dual monitor. I want to go triple monitor and play once in a while a game on bootcamp. If I buy the new mini it will still be not good enough for games and pushing it at the max for a triple mon setup for my usual work. Which means the mini was not future proof at its launch date. I don’t know yet if MBP16 will cut it and I am not going to buy a Mac Pro. An iMac is out of the solution as I move for long stays 3 times a year buy plane. An eGPU could be a solution if it was the size of a mini.

 

[Stella]

PC Games are not built for the lowest common denominator: PC games are built so graphics scale automatically depending on your graphics card. Also, most games allow you to change the visuals too.

PCs can deliver better graphics quality than a Console, and a better game overall - there is no 'built for the lowest common denominator' factor when it comes to PC gaming.

edit: reword / re-organize.

the problem with your build a pc gaming rig is that it causes fragmentation and most games are built for the lowest common denominator. There are the rare tech demo games that force you to buy the latest video card to help you justify the purchase.

With the consoles, you get great hardware year 1 with all games optimized for it through out the life cycle. No need to upgrade just for a game or two and everything is standardize. Console gaming is the only way to go. You will figure out after you spent a few thousand.

 

[maflynn]

the problem with your build a pc gaming rig is that it causes fragmentation and most games are built for the lowest common denominator.

You certainly haven't played many modern games, even Rise of the Tomb Raider a 2015 game can easily push a system beyond its capability, i.e., getting 60fps on that game requires a lot of horsepower.

With the consoles, you get great hardware year 1

Yep and generally speaking PCs will have easily leaped frogged its capability after year 1.

Console gaming is the only way to go

I have a console as well and it has its place but PC gaming offers so many more advantages, including better graphics, better performance more modding capability, its overall a superior platform

 

[dogslobber]

AR hasn’t been successful yet because there isn’t a great delivery mechanism. AR through a phone is inconvenient and not a great experience.

as technology improves, AR will find its place.

What does this even mean? It sounds like the classic here the tech now figure out a problem for it fallacy. What problem is AR trying to solve?

 

[tyranne201]

I suggest you get a slightly larger circle of friends. I am 56 - still game every day.

There are people that play mobile games - and then there are those that game.
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It isn't actually a lot of creatives anymore. We left.

It is almost impossible to do 3d work on Mac - the software simply isn't available on OSX.

This is the dumbest thing ever. Mobile games are just like regular games. That ideia that a gamer is only people that play on PC is so 2010. PC gaming is a niche, and certainly the market changed a lot since introduction of powerful mobile devices.

 

[dogslobber]

When people use the word "VR". They are always thinking "gaming". VR is a gateway to a lot more - a potential that hasn't even been begun to be realized.

A lot more what? Name an example of a thing it’ll be good for that will be used for the masses. Right now it’s good for nothing.

For Valve to abandon the platform (Mac) on which a lot of creatives work is simply and plainly and even obscenely stupid... I mean STUPID!

There’s no money in it. If there’s no money then why do it? Niche markets aren’t generally profitable.
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VR is a bit stagnant. Sure, there is new hardware, and it is amazing technology. But there isn't a killer app for it yet.

This in a button. If you think of headphones then something which can make noise through them will never catch on as it’s silly to look at and silly to wear. You develop a portable sound playing machine and you’ve created a new market.

It‘s like smart watches are pretty lousy for most things as they’re cumbersome and ill fitting. But you have health apps then you inspire the market albeit some smart watches are still a joke due to neutered battery life.

What is the point of video binocular.

 

[JCCL]

Yet it’s worked perfectly well for several decades.

iOS devices dominate the market. Mac continues being niche, and no one would consider them for serious gaming. Therefore, I fail to see how that worked perfectly well for them
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This is the dumbest thing ever. Mobile games are just like regular games. That ideia that a gamer is only people that play on PC is so 2010. PC gaming is a niche, and certainly the market changed a lot since introduction of powerful mobile devices.

You clearly have not played console or PC games. They’re not even close to be in the same category as mobile games. Quality of content, production values are in a whole other level

 

[4jasontv]

according to Forbes,

I'm still upset of no Metroid Prime/Prime Echo's evolution for the Switch ... else I'd be playing on it right now.

Next year I really think console games (XBox X Series or it's high end model & PS5 and it's iterations) may actually take over PC gaming for an entire year before hardware catches up. I'm half joking here.

I stand corrected on the Switch numbers. It lowers my numbers, but doesn't do a lot about the point I was trying to make. I agree about Metroid, although my backlog has been bit overwhelming for some time.

the problem with your build a pc gaming rig is that it causes fragmentation and most games are built for the lowest common denominator. There are the rare tech demo games that force you to buy the latest video card to help you justify the purchase.

With the consoles, you get great hardware year 1 with all games optimized for it through out the life cycle. No need to upgrade just for a game or two and everything is standardize. Console gaming is the only way to go. You will figure out after you spent a few thousand.

The lowest common denominator is the console. However, many game however are built for the PC and then they just start cutting things and lowering the resolution until they can get the specs needed for the target platform. That's not true for all games. Some games are despised in the PC game community because they artificially locked things like FPS or aspect ratio.

 

[ssgbryan]

No, you aren't joking.

8 cores/16 threads and 4K resolution will be the new baseline for PC gaming - which will be the final nail in the coffin for gaming on a Mac Computer, even if they stay with Intel.
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This is the dumbest thing ever. Mobile games are just like regular games. That ideia that a gamer is only people that play on PC is so 2010. PC gaming is a niche, and certainly the market changed a lot since introduction of powerful mobile devices.

Let us know when a AAA title shows up on mobile.

Have fun playing Candy Crush and dealing with micro-transactions.

 

[Spock]

I didn’t realize that we had so many Windows fans around here, my comments weren’t meant to offend. I simply commented on the problems that Microsoft has had by supporting 20+ year old software. I also made the comments of the poor software updates that have affected computers not to include my own. I am a full time Mac user but I do have a nice PC that I built for running games because the Mac has never been a gaming machine unless you want to play a game of Lemmings. It was not my intention to offend anyone.