Video: Trying the Apple Vision Pro Headset

[persona1138]

The "X device also does that". Reviewers who have done them all basically were blown away...that the old stuff says it can do it but...just checked a box and the implementation was terrible.

3D controllers will be common, but Apple isn't aiming at games so they dont care. Apple has a different vision.

"Who's going to take videos of their kids?" Well, as far as I can tell....everyone does that. With big devices, with small devices. I think thats not going to be a problem for a second.

The price is 3 times more than low end VR headsets. It's price parity with professional AR headsets. Wrong comparison, wrong category.

I think this is too expensive and not sure if it has a future. We will see.

I think you might be underestimating how far other headsets have come.

Also, the Vision Pro costs 10 times as much as low end VR headsets, like the Quest 2. Not 3 times as much.

Sure...among tech reviewers it has the best eye tracking of any device ever...but it's not "good enough". Some of the jaded ones used words like Magical. Maybe, just maybe, for $3500 Apple solved these problems. Or maybe in 3 generations....I cannot wait to try it and convince my work to buy it.

I’m sure it is the best eye and hand tracking ever. It better be for that price!

But the fact that even Dan says in his MacRumors video that you need a physical keyboard tells me that it probably still leaves A LOT to be desired.

Pinpoint accuracy is important if Apple actually expects people to WORK in the headset.

 

[cupcakes2000]

Movies. Integration with computers and a virtual computer screen. Browsing your photos “in a completely new way” (according to their video). Remote conversations with other people with a virtual avatar (look up VRChat, among others). Browsing the web with just a flick smoothly (you can do that in any VR headset, and even with just your hands with the same pinch maneuver in the Quest Pro). Collaborating on a Word or Excel document.

Basically, every single software feature they demoed has been around for a VERY long time.

The only truly “new” features are the smooth, user-scalable transition between AR and VR (which is neat). And the taking of 3D photos and video (which looks creepy AF in their presentation).

I’ll guess we’ll see what happens then. Whether or not the old school ‘done it already’ headsets will outsell and out surpass the new copy cat kid on the block.

I hate to pass a trope, but long live Nokia -I suppose.

 

[MacWiz_007]

You have to love how narcissistic a poster has to be when he/she issue a fatwa accusing all the potential buyers of being narcissistic. And only them are righteous and can judge others who « avoid reality »

Do you have any comment about the device introduced this week, its use case? Its design? The potential of the device?

When did I accuse all buyers of being narcissistic? Please quote me on this. I've made several comments about everything you've mentioned. Feel free to read them if you're so inclined.

 

[Col4bin]

You going swimming, Dan?

 

[persona1138]

Has anyone cracked the virtual vr keyboard well? Without a physical device? Who are you comparing Apple against here?

I’m not suggesting anyone’s cracked the virtual keyboard.

I’m suggesting that the hand tracking is perhaps lackluster for pinpoint accuracy (which is perhaps why they haven’t shown off the virtual keyboard).

I’m not concerned about the Vision Pro’s tracking ability to select something or swipe through photos or across a website. I am concerned about actions that require more precise control than that.

Which is why other manufacturers (like Valve, PlayStation, Meta, etc.) have controllers. For pinpoint accuracy in 3D space. That’s essential for work (not just gaming).

Those controllers have the added benefit of haptic feedback so that when you reach out and “touch” something in virtual space, it actually feels like you’re touching something other than air.

There are obvious benefits to hand tracking. It’s one (well, two - one for each hand) less device to have to charge. And hand/eye tracking can feel natural.

But if the hand tracking is not pinpoint accurate enough (like a controller) for me to, say, twist, crop, resize, and place a photo into a Word document without major headaches, then I don’t think it’s ready for work purposes. (Unless you’re using a mouse and keyboard in AR… which is fine, but kind of defeats half the purpose of working in 3D space, right?)

 

[mcled53]

MR, that keeps leaking Apple secrets, got a press pass?

Controlled leakage is called publicity.

 

[kkee]

After a lot of thought process (and there are a lot of them), I just want to say something.

In terms of gaming, I think it was VERY intentional NOT to make gaming a highlight. Yes, Apple is not historically great at gaming. But the real factor is, The Focus seemed to be on how this seamlessly fits into LIFE. There were comparison videos showing Meta Quest and Vision Pro official presentations. EVERYTHING for the Quest was focused on gaming. EVERYTHING, from the front facing camera, to the adjustable immersiveness, to the finger gestures and eye movement, and to the screen resolution and sound, were all focused on NATURAL immersion not only into the AR/VR world but how it fits into our lives.

This is a HUGE differentiation. Meta comes off as at toy, Vision Pro appears to impact life. Yes, Apple mentioned gaming and even its partnership with Unity, but that was clearly NOT the focus. I think controllers for games will be available, but that is NOT what they wanted to emphasize They wanted to concentrate on how natural this product is with just your eyes and fingers, for all aspects of life. Gaming is merely a subcategory or sub feature. I mean let's really think about it, for Quest and other VR and/or AR headsets, do we think of those products in ANY other relationship other than gaming? Isn't that the primary and perhaps only way we have really viewed these products. Meta attempted to show meetings within the Metaverse, but it induced laughter and mockery at how bad the experience was.

Apple even markets it as Spatial COMPUTING. They. are positioning themselves where the rest of the AR/VR field either have failed at or have not empathized or worked on in any real and/or successful capacity. Gaming will come, with controllers. But there is no way Apple wanted a controller add-on to distract from the vision of natural freedom and movement and interaction with their device.

 

[persona1138]

After a lot of thought process (and there are a lot of them), I just want to say something.

In terms of gaming, I think it was VERY intentional NOT to make gaming a highlight. Yes, Apple is not historically great at gaming. But the real factor is, The Focus seemed to be on how this seamlessly fits into LIFE. There were comparison videos showing Meta Quest and Vision Pro official presentations. EVERYTHING for the Quest was focused on gaming. EVERYTHING, from the front facing camera, to the adjustable immersiveness, to the finger gestures and eye movement, and to the screen resolution and sound, were all focused on NATURAL immersion not only into the AR/VR world but how it fits into our lives.

This is a HUGE differentiation. Meta comes off as at toy, Vision Pro appears to impact life. Yes, Apple mentioned gaming and even its partnership with Unity, but that was clearly NOT the focus. I think controllers for games will be available, but that is NOT what they wanted to emphasize They wanted to concentrate on how natural this product is with just your eyes and fingers, for all aspects of life. Gaming is merely a subcategory or sub feature. I mean let's really think about it, for Quest and other VR and/or AR headsets, do we think of those products in ANY other relationship other than gaming? Isn't that the primary and perhaps only way we have really viewed these products. Meta attempted to show meetings within the Metaverse, but it induced laughter and mockery at how bad the experience was.

Apple even markets it as Spatial COMPUTING. They. are positioning themselves where the rest of the AR/VR field either have failed at or have not empathized or worked on in any real and/or successful capacity. Gaming will come, with controllers. But there is no way Apple wanted a controller add-on to distract from the vision of natural freedom and movement and interaction with their device.

Well, Apple didn’t want a stylus for the iPad, either.

But then they realized that people needed more accurate controls sometimes. So we got the Apple Pencil.

 

[Analog Kid]

I think this is where Apple went wrong... even with stereo cameras, how can you have true depth of field when you're viewing video? Especially when some journalists noted they could notice the black borders in their peripheral vision. It's also impossible for there to be absolutely zero latency... even the tiniest amount of latency is going to result in an odd feeling or a headache after extended use. Obviously none of this can be confirmed until the devices are available and people can use them for over an hour.

The ideal tech IMO would be an OLED screen that can go completely translucent, with an outer screen that can go completely dark. But as far as I know, this doesn't exist yet. And that's why I think every other company has been unwilling to take the risk on a device like this: there are still too many compromises.

Have you ever tried a HoloLens? The experience isn't great. I believe Microsoft chose the approach they did because getting cameras and displays with sufficiently wide but uniform fields of view and well registered is a hard problem and Hololens is targeting AR.

I think the camera approach is where Apple went right, here. All indications are they nailed that implementation.

I'm not sure why you think you can't have true depth of field with video. What matters is the light patterns painted on your retinas. You get good depth of field when you wear glasses, so you know it works with something other than air in the way. Transcoding that light pattern to digital and back isn't any different in theory to translating audio to digital and back and listening through headphones-- except our ears are more forgiving than our eyes, so it's critical that it be done well. Apple seems to have done it well.

Apple said 12ms latency-- not frame rate, but sensor to image latency which is the important number. That's pretty darned good. A movie is 40ms between frames, a blink is 100ms. It doesn't need to be zero, because nothing in our brain operates at super high rates but, as you say, it'll take a lot of people using these for a lot of time to know if 12ms is good enough to hack our neurology. My guess is it's in the range that it depends on who you are-- just like they've got the PWMs in the displays good enough for most but not all people.

The OLED translucent approach you're describing may not work how you hope it will. It will have to be a very bright OLED to overcome the light in the background sufficiently to give good vibrancy and it requires that the image you create be registered to the world, not just to the cameras. If the cameras are a half degree out of alignment on your nose, you probably won't notice that the wall in the video isn't quite vertical-- but if you put a vertical line overlaid on a passthrough image with a half degree alignment error you'll see it diverge from reality.

 

[kkee]

Well, Apple didn’t want a stylus for the iPad, either.

But then they realized that people needed more accurate controls sometimes. So we got the Apple Pencil.

The main difference is Apple Pencil is not a must have device. When you bought an iPad, it doesn't come with it. Apple Pencil is created for those professional who needs more precise in their working more than fingers like drawing.

 

[Unami]

I really want an AI that can transcribe videos into text, i hate those reviews that could be read in <1mn

Download the subtitles and have ChatGPT summarize them? I‘m sure this could be done with a shortcut.

 

[persona1138]

The main difference is Apple Pencil is not a must have device. When you bought an iPad, it doesn't come with it. Apple Pencil is created for those professional who needs more precise in their working more than fingers like drawing.

Correct. But seriously, if they don’t want to demonstrate the virtual keyboard (even Dan said you should probably use a physical keyboard in AR), then even doing simple work tasks like cropping, twisting, and resizing a photo in a Word document could be a real hassle.

3D space makes pinpoint accuracy (for anything other than swiping and selecting) crucial. Their hand tracking HAS to be pinpoint-accurate, not just for gaming but for work as well.

And currently, there is NO Apple Pencil for the Vision Pro. Just your hands.

 

[persona1138]

I think we can trust Apple to do this tracking at least as well if not likely better than anyone. And I have no doubt that placing a photo and cropping will be easy. I've noted how accurate most reviewers have stated this works so far, on a preproduction device. So, it's just not a concern for me. A keyboard is magnitudes more difficult than accuracy on placing, cropping, manipulating items. And, given the enormous difference in pixels in the Vision Pro compared to most those others, I have faith Apple will nail this.

I don't count working in 3D space with a physical keyboard defeating in any way; just as you don't seem to think hand controllers defeat the experience. But again, I think Apple will do this better out of the gate (faith in Apple again) better than anyone else has done it.

So, let’s have Apple let us try that virtual keyboard, then!

 

[Analog Kid]

Which is why other manufacturers (like Valve, PlayStation, Meta, etc.) have controllers. For pinpoint accuracy in 3D space. That’s essential for work (not just gaming).

Your eyes are so much more stable and precise than your hands... For any hand-eye coordination challenge, it's always the hands that are the limiting factor. Look through a pair of binoculars and tell me if the problem is your eyes twitching of your hands shaking...

 

[persona1138]

Your eyes are so much more stable and precise than your hands... For any hand-eye coordination challenge, it's always the hands that are the limiting factor. Look through a pair of binoculars and tell me if the problem is your eyes twitching of your hands shaking...

You cannot sculpt a 3D object with your eyes. But you can do it plenty easily with a controller on, for example, the Valve Index.

Remember, I’m not concerned about selecting things. Your eyes work great for that. (Just try out the PSVR2.)

I’m talking about more complex actions within VR space that require precision.

 

[kkee]

Correct. But seriously, if they don’t want to demonstrate the virtual keyboard (even Dan said you should probably use a physical keyboard in AR), then even doing simple work tasks like cropping, twisting, and resizing a photo in a Word document could be a real hassle.

3D space makes pinpoint accuracy (for anything other than swiping and selecting) crucial. Their hand tracking HAS to be pinpoint-accurate, not just for gaming but for work as well.

And currently, there is NO Apple Pencil for the Vision Pro. Just your hands.

Correct, currently there is only hand gestures. Which is why it needs to be precise and accurate, and that's what Apple focus on. So far they appear to be successful according to every first time reactors. Unlike touch screen, gestures is laser tracker so your finger size is irrelevant, while the 3d space movement (x,y,z) along with your natural feedback reaction is more important. For example, you draw a line for cropping, the moment you stop in virtual screen you also stop your hand movement in real life. It flows naturally. This is also explain why tiny gestures is all you need.

 

[jimbobb24]

I think you might be underestimating how far other headsets have come.

Also, the Vision Pro costs 10 times as much as low end VR headsets, like the Quest 2. Not 3 times as much.


I’m sure it is the best eye and hand tracking ever. It better be for that price!

But the fact that even Dan says in his MacRumors video that you need a physical keyboard tells me that it probably still leaves A LOT to be desired.

Pinpoint accuracy is important if Apple actually expects people to WORK in the headset.

I am not the reviewers who reviewed all the other headsets and said this was a few generational leaps over them. I haven't used this.

The vision pro is still the wrong category so it doesn't compare. I could be 1/20 the cost and makes no difference.

I interpret it differently. Perfect pinpoint accuracy doesn't mean it replaces a keyboard. It means it replaces controllers and a mouse for most activities. They have a virtual keyboard but that sounds terrible. I dont see any eye tracking being good enough to replace keyboards...because I am a touch typist. I look at what I type not the keyboard. We will see how this works...I think it will be janky but dont think that has any implication of how good the eye tracking is.

 

[persona1138]

Correct, currently there is only hand gestures. Which is why it needs to be precise and accurate, and that's what Apple focus on. So far they appear to be successful according to every first time reactors. Unlike touch screen, gestures is laser tracker so your finger size is irrelevant, while the 3d space movement (x,y,z) along with your natural feedback reaction is more important. For example, you draw a line for cropping, the moment you stop in virtual screen you also stop your hand movement in real life. It flows naturally.

All I’ve heard from anyone that’s used the Vision Pro is about swiping and selecting. I’m sure that’s great.

And I certainly think the way you described how you’d crop a photo with your finger could work… in theory.

But when Apple can’t even demonstrate in their presentation or to members of the press in demos a virtual keyboard… It makes me skeptical about how accurate it is.

I’m sure it’ll be more accurate hand tracking than anyone’s done before. But will it be good enough?

I have my reservations. But we’ll see.

(Meanwhile, a controller solves all those problems. If Apple had optional controllers - in the same way an Apple Pencil is optional for the iPad - I wouldn’t be concerned. But my hands and eyes are the ONLY input method for this thing when manipulating items in a 3D space.)

 

[persona1138]

But is anyone at Apple yet making the claim that they've nailed a virtual keyboard? You're holding this out as an example as to why the Vision Pro "leaves A LOT" to be desired.

And, if their eye-tracking and hand-tracking are best in class, and given the number and style of sensors in the device, I assume that's true, then whatever keyboard they offer will certainly be better than provided by the competitors.

I’m just using the keyboard as an example, since it’s something that requires accurate hand and finger tracking.

Come on, you know what I meant. Don’t be obtuse. 😉

EDIT: OK, I’m out. Sorry for hijacking any of the conversation.

There’s a lot about the Vision Pro that excites me. There’s a lot about it - based on my prior experience for 7+ years and owning several headsets - that concerns me.

It’s a first-gen product from a company that has had no presence in VR. It’s bound to have shortcomings. I hope it pushes things forward.

And I really do hope it’s popular. I’d love to see VR/AR extend beyond an incredibly niche thing.

I love Apple. I wouldn’t generally bet against them. Ever. I certainly don’t when it comes to the iPhone, the Watch, the iPad, or the Mac. (Except for the new Mac Pro, which is a silly machine to buy when you have the same capabilities with the Mac Studio, but that’s another conversation.)

We’ll see what happens. There is plenty of time for developers to come up with interesting software before launch. There’s plenty of time for Apple to improve what they’re already doing. It’s going to be a process.

The battery’s still really freaking stupid, though. Especially since it doesn’t help fix the weight issue. And the capacity is only 2 hours. 🤦‍♂️

See you all in the Matrix!

 

[Analog Kid]

You cannot sculpt a 3D object with your eyes. But you can do it plenty easily with a controller on, for example, the Valve Index.

Remember, I’m not concerned about selecting things. Your eyes work great for that. (Just try out the PSVR2.)

I’m talking about more complex actions within VR space that require precision.

Continuing to ignore the fact that controllers can be paired with AVP, what can you do with a controller that you can't do with your eyes and hands? If you're going to "sculpt" something, whether with a controller or your bare hands you're still limited by your hands. For your "drop an image in word and adjust it" example, we do it with a mouse and handles right now, I'm guessing we'd still use handles if the document was hanging in free space.

Again, precision is limited by your hands and the controllers are in your hands...

I might be missing something crucial because I'm seeing what I think it can do rather than can't, but it might also be that people are uncomfortable dropping the little gyro pointing sticks because they're used to them... I think the controllers are a workaround for a problem that Apple may have solved directly.

 

[Night Spring]

Unless you’re using a mouse and keyboard in AR… which is fine, but kind of defeats half the purpose of working in 3D space,

For me, being able to have multiple screens in whatever size I want feels like that would be the main purpose of 3D space. The Apple bluetooth keyboard that came with my iMac is very compact and light, I wouldn't mind carrying that around to use with the Virtual Pro.

If Apple had optional controllers - in the same way an Apple Pencil is optional for the iPad - I wouldn’t be concerned

But Apple did say we can use third-party controllet if we want. So what's your concern? You want an Apple brand controller?

 

[persona1138]

Continuing to ignore the fact that controllers can be paired with AVP, what can you do with a controller that you can't do with your eyes and hands? If you're going to "sculpt" something, whether with a controller or your bare hands you're still limited by your hands. For your "drop an image in word and adjust it" example, we do it with a mouse and handles right now, I'm guessing we'd still use handles if the document was hanging in free space.

Again, precision is limited by your hands and the controllers are in your hands...

I might be missing something crucial because I'm seeing what I think it can do rather than can't, but it might also be that people are uncomfortable dropping the little gyro pointing sticks because they're used to them... I think the controllers are a workaround for a problem that Apple may have solved directly.

I’m exiting this conversation, but I’ll ask one question.

How many VR headsets have you used extensively?

I suppose it’s hard to verbally illustrate what working in VR space is like to someone that hasn’t done it a lot.

But if you think about it all for a sec, you HAVE to use your hands to manipulate objects in 3D space - whether it’s hand tracking or a controller. Your eyes and voice can’t do that.

And having had experience with hand tracking, it’s really, REALLY hard to do well. I’m sure Apple will do it better than anyone has until this point.

But - based on my experience - a controller can give you far more precision.

An artist who uses oil paints uses a paint brush. (I don’t think DaVinci was a finger painter.) Same goes for calligraphy.

Or using an Apple Pencil on an iPad. Or a Wacom tablet on a computer.

Sometimes, you need something in your hand that gives you more accuracy. It’s just basic logic.

Even if the finger tracking is PERFECT (which I highly doubt), you may STILL want a controller sometimes.

My criticism is NOT that Apple prioritizes using your hands, eyes, and voice as input methods.

My criticism is that those things are the ONLY input methods.

And if those are the only input methods, then I really think it’s going to be difficult to properly do more complex and precise actions beyond swiping and selecting stuff.

(Also, there was no announcement of a controller. So let’s not pretend I’m ignoring a capability, when it literally doesn’t exist for this headset.)

Anyway, I’m out.

 

[persona1138]

For me, being able to have multiple screens in whatever size I want feels like that would be the main purpose of 3D space. The Apple bluetooth keyboard that came with my iMac is very compact and light, I wouldn't mind carrying that around to use with the Virtual Pro.


But Apple did say we can use third-party controllet if we want. So what's your concern? You want an Apple brand controller?

They said we can use a PS5 controller. Like, analog sticks and buttons and whatnot.

VR controllers like the PS Sense, Valve Index, Quest, Vive, etc. are an entirely different type of technology. Which Apple would HAVE to make themselves.

(You cannot pair a PlayStation Sense controller with Bluetooth to a computer - or the Vision Pro - and call it a day. There are specialized sensors required to track those controllers in 3D space.)

Controllers like these:

Valve Index® Controllers on Steam

Your hands, in VR.Valve Index Controllers have been designed from the ground up to enable natural input, high fidelity hand presence, and comfort in VR.Half-Life: AlyxHalf-Life: Alyx is yours, whether you've had your Valve Index for a while, or are just about to take the plunge.

store.steampowered.com

Anyway, I’m out. Take care!

 

[Analog Kid]

My criticism is that those things are the ONLY input methods.

Except they aren’t…

 

[Rainshadow]

I still think people look ridiculous in AirPods. Everytime I see them.

Hilarious. Cause wires coming out of peoples ears was less weird? Some people just can’t adapt. What they use is the only thing anyone should use.

I have a friend who constantly bombards people with how foolish their stuff is. Inevitably, someone talks him into using something, and he jumps on the bandwagon after whining for years. Pretty frustrating.

I can’t give their opinions much weight in these cases.