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Videos Show Menu Bar Behavior in Apps Not Updated for MacBook Pro Notch

chucker23n1 said:
I beg to differ. The concept that no matter what (fullscreen mode aside), there's always a bar at the top that gives you system-wide functions (Apple menu), then app-wide functions (e.g., Preferences and Quit), then more specific app functionality, and finally system-wide status (menu extras / status items)? I think that's great UI.
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I agree, menu bar and the dock for me are the best solutions!
 
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Michael Scrip said:
You tell 'em Quinn.

So... what happens on older notch-less Macs if you have too many menu items *and* too many status bar items?

Did they just overlap?

I'm guessing Apple will update their app design guidelines to suggest developers reduce the number of menu items.

Notch or not... does DaVinci Resolve really need 14 menu items across the top?

:p
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Yes it does. Professional apps all do.
 
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ColdShadow said:
There should be a way to fix it at system level,because expecting every single app’s developer to make an update for it isn’t realistic.
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Cicnod said:
Actually yeah it is the developer's job.. One developer has one fix.
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It depends.

For the "iStat Menus is partially rendered inside the notch" problem, the developers seem to have done everything right. This is probably a bug on Apple's end. The thing is, the fix to that will be that, in this scenario, iStat Menus will be entirely invisible. I'm not sure anyone will love that?

Cicnod said:
Funny you think Apple should pore through every single third party program and accommodate. Ever been on an airplane? Well if you are too fat you need a seatbelt extender required by that specific plane to supply you one. Should; they take every plane in the world and send it back to Airbus or Boeing? Do they design new planes with seatbelts that will fit every one? No they don't.
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This is not how software development works. We use (ideally) libraries from the platform vendor (in this case, iStat Menus say they did), and that means that as long as you stick with the guidelines, the platform vendor is now responsible for such basics as drawing things correctly.

polyphenol said:
That is one excellent post which fully appreciate my points. Thank you.

For some reason (maybe logic? maybe just being too slow to even think of other possibilities?) I automatically assumed no reordering of menu bars. Inconsistent attitudes towards re-ordering (yes in one app, no in another, across apps, platforms, user-selectable or not, etc.) are hideous.
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It definitely should be consistent, yes.

If you excuse the crude ASCII art:

Code: 
 Safari File Edit View History Bookmarks Develop Window Help |||||||(notch)||||||| ? ? ? Wed 27. Oct 13:24
         Some Additional Menus Go Here                        |||||||(notch)|||||||

Here we have two rows of menus. The first shows some status items to the right (in this scenario, a lot more status items would fit). But instead of continuing the menus to the right of the notch (at which point they will eventually overlap with status items, like with what Quinn is complaining about), we're wrapping the menus, and we continue just after the application menu. We might even vertically center the Apple and application menus, and the status items:

Code: 
         File Edit View History Bookmarks Develop Window Help |||||||(notch)|||||||
 Safari                                                      |||||||(notch)||||||| ? ? ? Wed 27. Oct 13:24
         Some Additional Menus Go Here                        |||||||(notch)|||||||

Here's the problem: what happens if you click File? Do you obscure the second row of windows? Does the first item in the file menu start where, previously, the second row was? Do you leave a gap (maybe you continue to show the second row, but with 30% opacity?)? None of those will look quite right, and none of them will be easy to use.

That's why some developers back in the 90s (I think IBM may have started this) thought: in that case, we flip the order; if you want something from the second row, it gets moved over to the first row first, so that it looks right again. But that's obviously very awkward to use, too.

And I think that's why Apple's approach in the past 20 years has been "lalala this isn't a problem!".
 
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Shirasaki said:
Apple Says Notch is a 'Smart Way' to Give Users More Space for Content on New MacBook Pros
I don't know what this mean then, if such comments arent a form of endorsement and justification.
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What's not true is this
a fix is highly unlikely, which leaves all devs out in the dry trying to figure out stuff on their own.
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Any problems in the video specifically to the notch (like some menu get in behind the notch) will be fixed. Apple just didn't let anyone know about the notch in advance. They only told developers about the notch and how to deal with it after the keynote. Clearly not many devs can update their apps in time for launch.
 
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chucker23n1 said:
It depends.

For the "iStat Menus is partially rendered inside the notch" problem, the developers seem to have done everything right. This is probably a bug on Apple's end. The thing is, the fix to that will be that, in this scenario, iStat Menus will be entirely invisible. I'm not sure anyone will love that?



This is not how software development works. We use (ideally) libraries from the platform vendor (in this case, iStat Menus say they did), and that means that as long as you stick with the guidelines, the platform vendor is now responsible for such basics as drawing things correctly.



It definitely should be consistent, yes.

If you excuse the crude ASCII art:

Code: 
 Safari File Edit View History Bookmarks Develop Window Help |||||||(notch)||||||| ? ? ? Wed 27. Oct 13:24
         Some Additional Menus Go Here                        |||||||(notch)|||||||

Here we have two rows of menus. The first shows some status items to the right (in this scenario, a lot more status items would fit). But instead of continuing the menus to the right of the notch (at which point they will eventually overlap with status items, like with what Quinn is complaining about), we're wrapping the menus, and we continue just after the application menu. We might even vertically center the Apple and application menus, and the status items:

Code: 
         File Edit View History Bookmarks Develop Window Help |||||||(notch)|||||||
 Safari                                                      |||||||(notch)||||||| ? ? ? Wed 27. Oct 13:24
         Some Additional Menus Go Here                        |||||||(notch)|||||||

Here's the problem: what happens if you click File? Do you obscure the second row of windows? Does the first item in the file menu start where, previously, the second row was? Do you leave a gap (maybe you continue to show the second row, but with 30% opacity?)? None of those will look quite right, and none of them will be easy to use.

That's why some developers back in the 90s (I think IBM may have started this) thought: in that case, we flip the order; if you want something from the second row, it gets moved over to the first row first, so that it looks right again. But that's obviously very awkward to use, too.

And I think that's why Apple's approach in the past 20 years has been "lalala this isn't a problem!".
Click to expand...
Hate to break it to you but the guidelines changed. In other words it's up to you now with the new guidelines.

You don't get to argue that you don't deserve a ticket because they changed the speed limit and it used to be whatever. There are about a million other examples also.
 
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Shirasaki said:
Ok so its completely up to developers then. Wonderful.
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For menus, developers don't really have to do anything. macOS will just shift menus to the right if they don't fit entirely in the left. (I believe it will also squish the text slightly if they just barely fit, then.)

For status items ("menus on the right side"), developers also don't need to do anything, but it appears there is a bug on Apple's end.

If, and only if, developers do custom drawing in this area, they need to manually take the notch into account. This will affect very few things, e.g. full-screen UI.
 
Surely Apple will take care of the drawing issues. If it's up to 3rd parties it's going be an absolute mayhem.
 
chucker23n1 said:
There are no new "guidelines" for status items. This is likely a bug in macOS.
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There is a visual one. Funny, I guarantee that it is certainly possible to circumvent this notch. If I promised you $1M if you modified your 1 program to avoid the notch by the end of the week it would be done so it can be done. Now you may not want to do it, but that is life. You need their hardware (assuming you have a Mac program) more than they need your 1 app.
 
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Glad to see the overwhelming majority agree these reactions are way overblown. He's practically giddy over a tiny software issue. "How is this shippable?!" Um, probably because 95% of people aren't gonna notice it, and it's a pretty easy fix for the remaining 5%.
 
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Martin75 said:
It *is* handled at the system level. It looks like iStat uses some sort of a hack that circumvents system behaviour. (Possibly the whole collection of iStat widgets is viewed as one giant menu item by the system? How else should it behave then?)
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iStat dev responded they use standard items provided by Apple. It's on Apple to fix this.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1453171506263982087
 
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jdoyle said:
I said this when the introduced the notch into iPhone. A notch is not a feature. It all comes down to inability to miniaturise the components enough to fit into a narrow bezel or make them work under the screen. People need to stop making excuses for notches. They are ugly and anything that breaks the clean lines around your display will be annoying. Having this on a Pro level machine is not super annoying AND you don't even get FACE ID. I will find myself trying to hide it all the time. And no one can answer this either. Why could they not use the exact same notch components from an iPhone. Im looking at mine now. It goes right up against the top off the phone front. If it was that size on a MacBook it would fit into a super narrow bezel. I don't get why it has to be so big and still only have cameras, mic and True Tone sensor.
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your iPhone is MUCH thicker
 
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sinoka56 said:
iStat dev responded they use standard items provided by Apple. It's on Apple to fix this.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1453171506263982087
Click to expand...
notch.jpg

It seems it's Apple's fault.
 
I agree there should be a system-level API in place to prevent this from happing instead of relying on individual developers to "fix" things. I sort of expected Menu Bar menus to just stop at the notch and become scrollable. Similar to what happens in Safari 15.1 with tabs. Or just have an overflow menu in the form of an ... symbol.
 
Part of the problem comes from Apple not having a good design solution for when there is too much stuff to display in the menubar. This also is not a new issue, it happened for decades, esp. if you worked on smaller Laptop screens and used more than the few default menu bar items on the right side of screen. Usually menu items from a specific app overlay and hide menu items from the right side - if needed. And these disappear.
The notch should have been reason enough for Apple to finally redesign the menubar and have a solution in place - eg just let users access hidden menu items through some MORE menu. Basically what Bartender does.
So yeah it’s a design flaw - they will probably address in an update - but come on it’s not the nightmare some people make it.
 
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Canubis said:
Part of the problem comes from Apple not having a good design solution for when there is too much stuff to display in the menubar. This also is not a new issue, it happened for decades, esp. if you worked on smaller Laptop screens and used more than the few default menu bar items on the right side of screen. Usually menu items from a specific app overlay and hide menu items from the right side - if needed. And these disappear.
The notch should have been reason enough for Apple to finally redesign the menubar and have a solution in place - eg just let users access hidden menu items through some MORE menu. Basically what Bartender does.
So yeah it’s a design flaw - they will probably address in an update - but come on it’s not the nightmare some people make it.
Click to expand...
Agreed. This whole thing is a 'yawn' moment. But, anything Apple gets clicks, so here we are...
 
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