Waiting for Broadwell MBP Thread

[johnnylarue]

How big of a difference do you guys think I would notice in running games going from 350M to 850M? My current card fails to run high-demanding/new games respectably (such as Bioshock Infinite or The Witcher 2). I would love to run The Witcher 3, and would consider medium settings at 900p/30FPS acceptable when it releases. Seem doable?

Rather huge. The 750M is *just about* on par with Playstation 3 graphics. Bioshock Inifinte looks and plays great--albeit not no par with what you'd get from a gaming pc, obviously. Oh, and Trine 2 at full retina resolution is definitely a sight to behold.

The OSX version of Witcher 2 is an extreme resource pig. Definitely playable, but not a great performer by a long shot. (And sadly, no PS3 controller support, which is really unfortunate.)

The 850M compares favourably to the 750M in every category, obviously. See here: http://gpuboss.com/gpus/GeForce-GTX-850M-vs-GeForce-GT-750M

From your 3350M? Huge jump.

 

[Fraser28]

Rather huge. The 750M is *just about* on par with Playstation 3 graphics. Bioshock Inifinte looks and plays great--albeit not no par with what you'd get from a gaming pc, obviously. Oh, and Trine 2 at full retina resolution is definitely a sight to behold.

The OSX version of Witcher 2 is an extreme resource pig. Definitely playable, but not a great performer by a long shot. (And sadly, no PS3 controller support, which is really unfortunate.)

The 850M compares favourably to the 750M in every category, obviously. See here: http://gpuboss.com/gpus/GeForce-GTX-850M-vs-GeForce-GT-750M

From your 3350M? Huge jump.

Thanks for the response! Sounds good that it will be a major upgrade from what I have.

One part that has me a bit confused, though: you say that it will be just about on par with PS3? I would have expected the new rMBP computers to easily outclass the PS3 when it comes to graphics. Bioshock Infinite, for example, looks pretty ****** on PS3. And even my old 350M card can run games such as Dead Space 3 and Alan Wake. So I was expecting the new rMBP computers with 850M to run games on higher settings than a PS3.

 

[johnnylarue]

Thanks for the response! Sounds good that it will be a major upgrade from what I have.

One part that has me a bit confused, though: you say that it will be just about on par with PS3? I would have expected the new rMBP computers to easily outclass the PS3 when it comes to graphics. Bioshock Infinite, for example, looks pretty ****** on PS3. And even my old 350M card can run games such as Dead Space 3 and Alan Wake. So I was expecting the new rMBP computers with 850M to run games on higher settings than a PS3.

Should have specified: I'm not running Windows on my machine--and as you probably know OS X ports can be pretty brutal--so I'm probably only seeing about 70-75% of this machine's actual gaming ability (especially for 3D graphic stuff).

Even in full flight though, I wouldn't say this (highest spec!) rMBP easily outclasses a PS3. It plays a lot of great games very well, but it's, sadly, still a Mac, and that dGPU is strictly middle-of-the-road territory.

 

[Fraser28]

Should have specified: I'm not running Windows on my machine--and as you probably know OS X ports can be pretty brutal--so I'm probably only seeing about 70-75% of this machine's actual gaming ability (especially for 3D graphic stuff).

Even in full flight though, I wouldn't say this (highest spec!) rMBP easily outclasses a PS3. It plays a lot of great games very well, but it's, sadly, still a Mac, and that dGPU is strictly middle-of-the-road territory.

Ah I see. Yeah, that makes sense then if you aren't using Bootcamp. From what I've heard, running games in OSX is quite a bit worse. I agree that I shouldn't expect too much since the dGPU is pretty mediocre. But I'll be very disappointed if the games don't look better than PS3. PS3 runs most games at 720p, and some games can't even maintain 30FPS. I'd expect to run most currently released games at 900p/30FPS pretty easily on the new rMBP.

I also hope to be able to run The Witcher 3 when it releases, even if at pretty low settings.

 

[iKrivetko]

Great, happy to see your confidence. I use my MBP to play games, and currently have a 2010 MBP (with a Nvidia GeForce 350M card). I'm really counting on upgrading this fall to a 15" rMBP. So while I'm quite disappointed that Broadwell won't make it, an upgrade in the graphics card to 850M would be awesome.

How big of a difference do you guys think I would notice in running games going from 350M to 850M? My current card fails to run high-demanding/new games respectably (such as Bioshock Infinite or The Witcher 2). I would love to run The Witcher 3, and would consider medium settings at 900p/30FPS acceptable when it releases. Seem doable?

It's 330m. 350m is a GTS level card.

 

[Fraser28]

It's 330m. 350m is a GTS level card.

Oh, OK. 330M then.

 

[MattZani]

I think the basic rule with buying at the moment is that if you want a model without the 750m, buy now as the refresh won't be worth the wait.

HOWEVER, if you're going for the 750m rMBP (Like I will be) It's worth waiting as the refresh could be far more significant.

 

[10kVolts]

Is it likely that in the refresh we'll see a GPU upgrade to the 850? I suppose it would make common sense being available and all but I'm quite eager to get my high end rmbp once my tax return comes in.

 

[Psyflow]

I think the basic rule with buying at the moment is that if you want a model without the 750m, buy now as the refresh won't be worth the wait.

HOWEVER, if you're going for the 750m rMBP (Like I will be) It's worth waiting as the refresh could be far more significant.

Gah, this is the boat I am in as well. Not sure how much longer I can/want to wait, but for the amount of money and the length of time I will have this thing a better dGPU would be much appreciated. I may just end up pulling the trigger this week either way.

 

[Vanilla35]

Great, happy to see your confidence. I use my MBP to play games, and currently have a 2010 MBP (with a Nvidia GeForce 350M card). I'm really counting on upgrading this fall to a 15" rMBP. So while I'm quite disappointed that Broadwell won't make it, an upgrade in the graphics card to 850M would be awesome.

How big of a difference do you guys think I would notice in running games going from 350M to 850M? My current card fails to run high-demanding/new games respectably (such as Bioshock Infinite or The Witcher 2). I would love to run The Witcher 3, and would consider medium settings at 900p/30FPS acceptable when it releases. Seem doable?

Playing Witcher 3 with the 850M should be do-able. Definitely in low settings and likely in Medium settings. If the card is clocked closer to an 860M (which is likely the case, as they've done that in the past with the 650M and 750M) then it'll likely play Medium settings great.

General estimate: 2013 games and older (except for certain games like Company and Heros, Total War, etc.) will run in Ultra. General 2014-2015 games will run mostly in high. Graphics intensive games 2014-2015 will run in Medium (like Witcher 3).

I also think they will certaintly upgrade the 750M to an 850M, I'm just skeptical about how they're going to do the releases. Probably a CPU speed bump, plus the dGPU this fall, and that's it. Then maybe a CPU refresh in July for Broadwell, and a redesign with Skylake, a few months after that.

 

[psik]

Macrumors needs to get us some leaks regarding the mini refresh at least.I really hope it won't be October

 

[johnnylarue]

Macrumors needs to get us some leaks regarding the mini refresh at least.I really hope it won't be October

Does iPhoneRumors even cover Mac stuff anymore?

 

[MattZani]

Is it likely that in the refresh we'll see a GPU upgrade to the 850? I suppose it would make common sense being available and all but I'm quite eager to get my high end rmbp once my tax return comes in.

As far as I can tell there's nothing really pointing to it, but as it's available, and competitors are using it, it would make no sense for it not to be included, as it draws the same power as the 750m just offers more performance.

 

[bluejackets]

Not sure if this is going to sound silly, but I'm trying to figure out if it's worth waiting or not. I'm headed back to school in Europe on August 29th, so that's basically the last day that I can purchase my MBP. (The difference in price between Canada and Europe is obscene). But, of course, I would be very upset if I jump the gun and then a month later a redesigned Macbook somehow comes out.

I'm only really considering the quad-core 15 inch, because I use Logic very heavily for music production. If the only difference is the GPU, I would assume this would have little effect on how it handles music ... Is it a given that we won't see quad-core processors in the 13 inch line?

I'm so hesitant to spend $2500 prematurely, that I've actually been considering just getting a 13' Macbook Air for 1450, but I'm worried about the 8GB Ram and the fact that no parts are replaceable anymore. My current Macbook is from mid-2009 (core 2 duo), and still handles incredibly because I've installed 8GB ram and a SSD on my own. It can't handle music well, though, and I'm having problems with it waking from sleep now, which is why I need a new one.

Any tips?

 

[GoneDrinkin]

Not sure if this is going to sound silly, but I'm trying to figure out if it's worth waiting or not. I'm headed back to school in Europe on August 29th, so that's basically the last day that I can purchase my MBP. (The difference in price between Canada and Europe is obscene). But, of course, I would be very upset if I jump the gun and then a month later a redesigned Macbook somehow comes out.

I'm only really considering the quad-core 15 inch, because I use Logic very heavily for music production. If the only difference is the GPU, I would assume this would have little effect on how it handles music ... Is it a given that we won't see quad-core processors in the 13 inch line?

I'm so hesitant to spend $2500 prematurely, that I've actually been considering just getting a 13' Macbook Air for 1450, but I'm worried about the 8GB Ram and the fact that no parts are replaceable anymore. My current Macbook is from mid-2009 (core 2 duo), and still handles incredibly because I've installed 8GB ram and a SSD on my own. It can't handle music well, though, and I'm having problems with it waking from sleep now, which is why I need a new one.

Any tips?

I'll just say that I had the chance to pick up an American MBP in May, and I really regret not doing it because I would've saved so much, and it would've justified the purchase, even if they had gotten a refresh briefly afterward.

Right now, I'm so sick of waiting. I'm just thinking of getting one soon and availing of the student discount. It's still €1450 for an 8GB 256SSD 13", so I could've gotten it far cheaper in America that time.

I say go for it. With the amount you'll save, you won't regret it- and broadwell, which would've been a legitimate reason to wait for is officially delayed until 2015 anyway. Any spec bump between now and then will be so insignificant.

 

[johnnylarue]

I'm so hesitant to spend $2500 prematurely, that I've actually been considering just getting a 13' Macbook Air for 1450, but I'm worried about the 8GB Ram and the fact that no parts are replaceable anymore. My current Macbook is from mid-2009 (core 2 duo), and still handles incredibly because I've installed 8GB ram and a SSD on my own. It can't handle music well, though, and I'm having problems with it waking from sleep now, which is why I need a new one.

Any tips?

It's basically a fact that we're not going to see a truly meaningful update to the rMBP until Broadwell is released next year, so barring a real shocker curveball from Apple like IGZO displays, the most you can expect this fall is a minor CPU bump, price drop, and/or the inclusion of a (roughly) 20% better dGPU in the high end model.

The pundits are in agreement that Apple will do *something* to refresh their laptop line before Christmas (most likely after the Back to School promo ends), but highly unlikely that it will happen before you leave, and it will be nothing to make you feel like you just bought an obsolete machine.

I'd say just get it over with and start enjoying your new computer before school starts!

 

[Vanilla35]

It's basically a fact that we're not going to see a truly meaningful update to the rMBP until Broadwell is released next year

Well I, for one, can't wait for my silent refresh this october

 

[johnnylarue]

Well I, for one, can't wait for my silent refresh this october

I don't blame you.

And to think I actually considered postponing my late-2013 purchase to this year because the Haswell update was so underwhelming...!

 

[Fraser28]

Playing Witcher 3 with the 850M should be do-able. Definitely in low settings and likely in Medium settings. If the card is clocked closer to an 860M (which is likely the case, as they've done that in the past with the 650M and 750M) then it'll likely play Medium settings great.

General estimate: 2013 games and older (except for certain games like Company and Heros, Total War, etc.) will run in Ultra. General 2014-2015 games will run mostly in high. Graphics intensive games 2014-2015 will run in Medium (like Witcher 3).

I also think they will certaintly upgrade the 750M to an 850M, I'm just skeptical about how they're going to do the releases. Probably a CPU speed bump, plus the dGPU this fall, and that's it. Then maybe a CPU refresh in July for Broadwell, and a redesign with Skylake, a few months after that.

Thanks for your thoughts. Those are some really useful estimates, and in line with what I expected/hoped. That's a significant upgrade over PS3 settings, which are generally the equivalent of low settings on the newest PC games (and often only 720p). What you described sounds kind of like a PS3.5 which is what I was hoping for/sufficient for now.

I say go for it. With the amount you'll save, you won't regret it- and broadwell, which would've been a legitimate reason to wait for is officially delayed until 2015 anyway. Any spec bump between now and then will be so insignificant.

It's basically a fact that we're not going to see a truly meaningful update to the rMBP until Broadwell is released next year

The pundits are in agreement that Apple will do *something* to refresh their laptop line before Christmas (most likely after the Back to School promo ends), but highly unlikely that it will happen before you leave, and it will be nothing to make you feel like you just bought an obsolete machine.

I'd say just get it over with and start enjoying your new computer before school starts!

I agree with you guys who are giving him the advice to go for it. It sounds like he is hurting for a new computer, and the current rMBP is definitely sufficient for his needs. The new 850M chip likely won't make much of a difference for him, and Broadwell is months away.

That said, for others (such as myself) waiting a few more months for the dGPU bump seems to make sense. Although I'd really like to upgrade my 2010 MBP right now, it's functioning fine. So I can afford to wait a little bit longer. And having a 20% more powerful dGPU is important to me. The MBP's mediocre GPU is the biggest bottleneck for games, and a sizable improvement will make a big difference for playing games over the next few years.

Out of curiosity, what difference is Broadwell expected to have on the CPU and GPU? Is it mostly an improvement to the CPU?

 

[johnnylarue]

Out of curiosity, what difference is Broadwell expected to have on the CPU and GPU? Is it mostly an improvement to the CPU?

It's mainly an overall efficiency improvement. Intel are saying Broadwell chips will be ~30% more efficient than Haswells running under the same loads, so I would expect a significant bump to battery life, along with a smaller but still noticeable boost to processing power.

Innovation in mobile computing at this point seems geared towards reduced size/smaller form factors and reduced power consumption, rather than an increase in speed/raw power. This probably has a lot to do with the industry catching up to/accommodating newer ultra-high definition displays--which generally require a lot more energy/resources to power.

 

[GoneDrinkin]

It's mainly an overall efficiency improvement. Intel are saying Broadwell chips will be ~30% more efficient than Haswells running under the same loads, so I would expect a significant bump to battery life, along with a smaller but still noticeable boost to processing power.

Innovation in mobile computing at this point seems geared towards reduced size/smaller form factors and reduced power consumption, rather than an increase in speed/raw power. This probably has a lot to do with the industry catching up to/accommodating newer ultra-high definition displays--which generally require a lot more energy/resources to power.

That's what I'm really disappointed about. Even better battery life would've been really great. And the next-gen iGPU would've really ensured the lagging on the 13" model was a thing of the past.

What do you guys think will be in this year's refresh? New trackpad has been rumoured.

Possible redesign? I doubt it.
Possible IGZO display? Maybe.

 

[10kVolts]

I'm definitely considering firing the gun and getting mine now considering my university studies start up again at the end of this month and I'll need access to Xcode and logic. I've been looking at the refurbed models and there's pretty much every current gen model available plus the altered models for ~$200 less from even the education discount.

I just want to ask are they usually every bit as good as a new one besides for maybe a nick or dent somewhere in the unibody?

 

[johnnylarue]

I've been looking at the refurbed models and there's pretty much every current gen model available plus the altered models for ~$200 less from even the education discount.

I just want to ask are they usually every bit as good as a new one besides for maybe a nick or dent somewhere in the unibody?

I think I've personally examined five or six refurbished MacBooks (as purchased by friends and co-workers), and not one of them had a mark on it. None were distinguishable from a new unit in any visible way, save for the plain packaging they come in.

I think the "minor physical defects" disclaimer that accompanies them is just a fair warning. Blemishes seem to be the exception to the rule.

And functionally (i.e. where it matters), there is literally no difference. The battery might have a few extra cycles on it, but that's all. They're every bit as reliable as a machine off the assembly line, if not more so since any flaw they might have had has been found and repaired.

Refurbs are definitely where it's at if you're looking to save a few bucks.

 

[10kVolts]

Thanks for the info, I thought that probably would have been the case. Think i might just put my order through today

 

[johnnylarue]

I keep coming back to two incontestable facts regarding a late-2014 rMBP refresh:

1. Apple always has a fresh (or refreshed) Macbook line to sell for the holidays, and,

2. No Broadwell until 2015.

I'm assuming they haven't found a way to manufacture a radical new physical MBP design in total secrecy given the 'leaky' times we live in (hello, iPhone 6), so that leaves just a few possibilities in terms of upgrades:

- IGZO displays. Healthy boost to battery life while we wait for those more efficient Broadwell processors. My guess is they'll wait for the case redesign to introduce IGZO displays--maybe 4K, but I'm thinking smaller bezels or slight tweaks to the shape/form factor.

- Updated dGPU. Apple, to my memory, has never really celebrated "high-powered" GPUs in any meaningful way... possibly because it's too 'nerdy' or not relatable to the common folk, or maybe 'cause good GPUs are battery hogs. With an 850M they could legitimately push the gaming angle for the first time on a Macbook and possibly even get away with it. The fact that it's also more efficient than the 750M would be in line with their commitment to extending battery life across their portable lineup.

- CPU bump, a la MBA. An extra .1GHz brings along the automatic tagline, "The Most Powerful Macbook Yet".

- New SSD options? I don't see this happening, as SSD prices in general haven't come down enough in the past year. Apple will continue to force expensive storage upgrade options on us like megalomaniacal slumlords because it's a crucial part of their pricing philosophy. Speaking of which,

- Price drop. An easy sell and relatively painless--barring an unforeseen spike in the price of "battery glue".

Am I missing anything? Can't help but feel like any new trackpad worth talking about (haptic or otherwise) would have been leaked by now if it was being used in an imminent refresh...

Anyway, when all of these have come into being within the next year or two, I suspect these laptops are going to kick serious @ss.

But in the short term, I'm thinking a modest price drop, tiny CPU bump, an updated dGPU, and OS X Yosemite are the safest, and most easily implemented changes they can make this go-round.