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Waiting for Haswell MBP Mega Thread

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smakdown61 said:
You can also bet that apple will be using some custom drivers that are far beyond the regular intel ones for normal iris pro.
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I'm sorry, are you suggesting Apple will have up-to-date, highly optimized drivers for this thing?? You must be new here. Apple has terrible driver support especially for video. It took forever for OS X to get decent 650m driver support when the MBPr first came out.

Even now, Windows 7 -under boot camp- runs circles around OS X in graphics.

I doubt this will change with Iris Pro...

-P
 
sofianito said:
Source?
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All the sauce on Big Blue's hot chip: More on Power7+

The interesting bit in that statement is a reference to "memory compression." The AIX 6.1 operating system from 2010 was given a feature called Active Memory Expansion, a data compression algorithm implemented in software and tied to the Power7 processors that could do 2:1 squeezing on main memory. This data compression does two things: it allows more stuff to live in main memory, and it also allows for CPU utilization to be driven up in the system, pushing more work through it.

On one benchmark test (PDF) running SAP ERP applications on a 12-core Power 7 server with 18GB of physical memory, the memory was maxxed out but the CPU was only at 46 per cent and the machine only handled 1,000 SAP users and delivered 99 transactions per second of performance. With Active Memory Expansion turned on running AIX 6.1 on this system, the box was able to boost main memory by 37 percent to 24.7 GB. The SAP workload could then push CPU utilization up to 88 per cent (some from the memory compression), but now the machine supported 1,700 users and did 166 transactions per second. That's 70 per cent more users doing 65 per cent more work.
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Edit: Yeah, I know- talking about Power in a "new macbook" thread, now that's...new :p
 
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Intel sucks at writing drivers... they should open source the code to the Mac OS X community...

Oh, OpenDarwin project is dead... :D
 
sofianito said:
2880x1800 is 5 Million pixeles = 5MBytes * 3 (RGB) = 15MBytes.

So with 30MB, you could alternate between 2x15MB framebuffers to display the content on the screen. The remaining 128MB - 30 = 98MB could be used as temporary buffers for graphic calculations...
Click to expand...

That calculation would make sense... if you're trying to display 1 frame at a time by loading graphics assets from elsewhere.

Assuming an app is fullscreen and it caches 4 layers of graphics. Which "app" does that? Try Mission Control.

That's 4 layers of 2880 x 1800 frames.

That's 4 * 15MBytes = 60MBytes

Suddenly you only have 38MB left for just ONE more app.

And not to mention the 128MB of L4 cache that Iris Pro has access to is still just about 2/3 the bandwidth of GDDR5 that the 650M has. And the 650M has 8 TIMES the capacity to deal with.

Seriously, Iris Pro inherently has memory problems. That's why it's not performing as it should. Benchmarks show it should be close to 650M because that's what the GPU is capable of. But in practice, Intel would have to make the processor far bigger and far more costly in order to fully utilize the GPU.

No amount of software "fix" can remedy that.
 
bill-p said:
That calculation would make sense... if you're trying to display 1 frame at a time by loading graphics assets from elsewhere.

Assuming an app is fullscreen and it caches 4 layers of graphics. Which "app" does that? Try Mission Control.

That's 4 layers of 2880 x 1800 frames.

That's 4 * 15MBytes = 60MBytes

Suddenly you only have 38MB left for just ONE more app.

And not to mention the 128MB of L4 cache that Iris Pro has access to is still just about 2/3 the bandwidth of GDDR5 that the 650M has. And the 650M has 8 TIMES the capacity to deal with.

Seriously, Iris Pro inherently has memory problems. That's why it's not performing as it should. Benchmarks show it should be close to 650M because that's what the GPU is capable of. But in practice, Intel would have to make the processor far bigger and far more costly in order to fully utilize the GPU.

No amount of software "fix" can remedy that.
Click to expand...

I wonder if the special Apple version of Iris Pro will have more L4 or some other improvement to help with that.
 
bill-p said:
That calculation would make sense... if you're trying to display 1 frame at a time by loading graphics assets from elsewhere.

Assuming an app is fullscreen and it caches 4 layers of graphics. Which "app" does that? Try Mission Control.

That's 4 layers of 2880 x 1800 frames.

That's 4 * 15MBytes = 60MBytes

Suddenly you only have 38MB left for just ONE more app.

And not to mention the 128MB of L4 cache that Iris Pro has access to is still just about 2/3 the bandwidth of GDDR5 that the 650M has. And the 650M has 8 TIMES the capacity to deal with.

Seriously, Iris Pro inherently has memory problems. That's why it's not performing as it should. Benchmarks show it should be close to 650M because that's what the GPU is capable of. But in practice, Intel would have to make the processor far bigger and far more costly in order to fully utilize the GPU.

No amount of software "fix" can remedy that.
Click to expand...

*sigh*....
 
Oh, also, I only see three possible layers in Mission Control (gray screen, desktop background, apps/desktops). Which one is the fourth? And since Mission Control is full-screen anyway, that extra 30ish MB is probably not getting used.

In general though, the consensus does seem to be that gaming is going to be a downgrade if Apple does remove the dGPU. If gaming is important to you, I probably wouldn't wait and would just get a refurb rMBP.
 
sofianito said:
2880x1800 is 5 Million pixeles = 5MBytes * 3 (RGB) = 15MBytes.

So with 30MB, you could alternate between 2x15MB framebuffers to display the content on the screen. The remaining 128MB - 30 = 98MB could be used as temporary buffers for graphic calculations...
Click to expand...

Also, it looks like the L4 cache has a different purpose from the RAM on dedicated chips anyway - more like an extended L3 cache than shrunken DDR3/GDDR5 RAM. From Anandtech, "Intel didn’t see much benefit beyond a 32MB eDRAM however it wanted the design to be future proof. Intel doubled the size to deal with any increases in game complexity, and doubled it again just to be sure."
 
To all those saying the drivers will suck, based on old drivers : these will be CUSTOM iGPUs. Never has that happened before. So "good" drivers are still a possibility.

The only problem left is memory.
 
i heard that with Maveriks the drivers will be better for GPU

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i hope with this upgrade to include the 760M
 
I know when the new RMBPs are coming out!!!!!!!

Yes, when 99% of people in this forum got impatient and sick of wating, and choose to compromise for a deal on current models!! That's when the stocks are finally emptied, the right time to announce the new models!

So, Go ahead people. The BTS deal is good!!!
The Bestybuy/Macmall is providing great deals!!! The price is good!!!!

And let's be honest, the dGPU is gone, and Haswell doesn't improve much on speed, what's the point to wait???
The new semester is coming, you have to get yourself a macbook before it starts!!
Come on, you want to wait two more months?? Are you kidding me????

Well, I am among that 1%.
 
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jxie0755 said:
I know when the new RMBPs are coming out!!!!!!!

Yes, when 99% of people in this forum got impatient and sick of wating, and choose to compromise for a deal on current models!! That's when the stocks are finally emptied, the right time to announce the new models!

So, Go ahead people. The BTS deal is good!!!
The Bestybuy/Macmall is providing great deals!!! The price is good!!!!

And let's be honest, the dGPU is gone, and Haswell doesn't improve much on speed, what's the point to wait???
The new semester is coming, you have to get yourself a macbook before it starts!!
Come on, you want to wait two more months?? Are you kidding me????

Well, I am among that 1%.
Click to expand...

I have two words for you... ;)

STILL waiting!
 
ka-spot said:
I have two words for you... ;)

STILL waiting!
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Me too.

August is going to be a tough month. It's going to be slow in rumor-land.

Retina MacBook Pros may not come out until October, but after Labor Day in the US it's going to get exciting. There could be real news almost weekly starting in September :D
 
jxie0755 said:
I know when the new RMBPs are coming out!!!!!!!

Yes, when 99% of people in this forum got impatient and sick of wating, and choose to compromise for a deal on current models!! That's when the stocks are finally emptied, the right time to announce the new models!

So, Go ahead people. The BTS deal is good!!!
The Bestybuy/Macmall is providing great deals!!! The price is good!!!!

And let's be honest, the dGPU is gone, and Haswell doesn't improve much on speed, what's the point to wait???
The new semester is coming, you have to get yourself a macbook before it starts!!
Come on, you want to wait two more months?? Are you kidding me????

Well, I am among that 1%.
Click to expand...

Don't forget those that switched to Windows!
 
Totally out of context, I know, but after much research this morning, I've come to the conclusion that the current rMBPs are crap due to screen problems. It's very upsetting, because I *really* wanted to buy a current rMBP (despite the stupidity of buying "end of cycle").

It is terrifying to wait until Sept/Oct for the new crop of whatever it is that gets released, since my main machine is a veteran 2007 17" MBP, and it's no longer under AppleCare. Thank god my 2010 MBA is still under AppleCare through late October. I suppose if the MBP dies I can use my SuperDuper clone of it in Target Mode on the MBA.

But the bottom line for me has become "how can I get a rMBP with a good display?" I pray to the heavens that the display issues will be resolved in the Haswells.

The screen issue is, I think, a MUCH bigger concern than the whole graphics performance (iGPU vs dGPU) debate. It is very sad to see the lengthy threads and thousands of posts in Macrumors and Apple forums wherein so, so many customers are forced to deal with crap display problems for such expensive laptops (especially since Apple seems to have been often in denial about the issue even existing).

Build Quality AND Service going into the toilet...so, so, so sad.
 
tmiw said:
Oh, also, I only see three possible layers in Mission Control (gray screen, desktop background, apps/desktops). Which one is the fourth? And since Mission Control is full-screen anyway, that extra 30ish MB is probably not getting used.

In general though, the consensus does seem to be that gaming is going to be a downgrade if Apple does remove the dGPU. If gaming is important to you, I probably wouldn't wait and would just get a refurb rMBP.
Click to expand...

In a perfect world, you'd hope that Mission Control wouldn't truly take up 60MBytes.

But this isn't really a perfect world. Each desktop in Mission Control is a separate 2880 x 1800 "layer" or "frame". It's not just what's visible. It's also what is going on in the background. Windows in Mavericks are "live" (as in if you're playing a video, then the video keeps playing and you see its window changing), so they are still being updated at full resolution while you're in Mission Control.

And do note that the rMBP also has scaled resolutions of 3360 x 2100 and 3840 x 2400. Those blow up video memory usage even more than 2880 x 1800.

Mavericks DP4 increased HD 4000 to 1024MB on my rMBP. Up from 512MB in Mountain Lion. I'd think there's a correlation.

Granted, Iris Pro would still be faster than HD 4000 because it can share more from DDR3 and use L4 cache only for things that needs super fast access. But obviously 128MB L4 cache isn't fast enough for high resolutions because Iris Pro's performance falls off a cliff at anything higher than 1366 x 768.
 
bill-p said:
But obviously 128MB L4 cache isn't fast enough for high resolutions because Iris Pro's performance falls off a cliff at anything higher than 1366 x 768.
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That's a bunch of false fear mongering. Do you even have an inkling of proof to back yourself up for this?

Desktop screen draws are nothing like gaming screen draws. The only thing that drops off a cliff at higher resolution is gaming performance, and laptop dGPUs like the 750M will choke like mad anyways gaming at higher resolutions.
 
neteng101 said:
That's a bunch of false fear mongering. Do you even have an inkling of proof to back yourself up for this?
Click to expand...

Here's a technical writeup that sums it up:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2804

It's not "false fear mongering". It's the truth. There's a reason video memory requirements keep going up for OS X and not down.

Desktop screen draws are nothing like gaming screen draws. The only thing that drops off a cliff at higher resolution is gaming performance, and laptop dGPUs like the 750M will choke like mad anyways gaming at higher resolutions.
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Performance on desktop won't drop off, but video memory usage is indeed a problem.

And gaming is not the only thing that drops off a cliff. Use gfxCardStatus and force iGPU or dGPU, and then go into Photoshop, making sure GPU acceleration is enabled. Tell me then if there's not a noticeable difference.

Maya, AutoCAD, and such applications that make heavy use of OpenGL will also suffer.

And for gaming specifically, even if they choke at higher resolutions, the 650M and 750M are still far faster than Iris Pro.
 
Clovel19 said:
To all those saying the drivers will suck, based on old drivers : these will be CUSTOM iGPUs. Never has that happened before.
Click to expand...

You people need to stop stating this like it's fact. It's a RUMOR from a source that doesn't really have historical credibility.

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Serban said:
i heard that with Maveriks the drivers will be better for GPU
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And I heard, errr, noticed that you like to come into this thread and claim all kinds of stuff that you allegedly learned or heard. And that I seriously doubt any of it is true, and that you're just begging for attention or to stir up the pot.
 
Sandy Santra said:
Totally out of context, I know, but after much research this morning, I've come to the conclusion that the current rMBPs are crap due to screen problems.

...

But the bottom line for me has become "how can I get a rMBP with a good display?" I pray to the heavens that the display issues will be resolved in the Haswells.
Click to expand...
???

I purchased a current 15" rMBP last week (June 2013 build) and the display was perfect.

The answer to your "how?" question is: buy one.
 
mneblett said:
???

I purchased a current 15" rMBP last week (June 2013 build) and the display was perfect.

The answer to your "how?" question is: buy one.
Click to expand...

I see you know how it works... I want 13" retina. what's the answer for 13"? buy one or wait 3 months :)

One joker: my birthday is this week and I want retina 13" :rolleyes:

I can buy one for my birthday, and one when haswell's are released... :)
 
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