Waiting for Haswell MBP Mega Thread

[Vanilla35]

I've got a question for anyone that might care to answer. Everyone knows the debate for this upcoming rMBP is whether it's going to get a spec bump for the dGPU or whether they're actually going to ditch the dGPU and only support Iris Pro integrated. With all its limitations, and most likely, (even if they get special order form) highly disappointing results. If not the two options above, then they may choose the route of ???? (doubt they would do anything we aren't expecting at this point). Although I'm sure we can all agree that computers are heading the route of losing their dedicated graphics, because that's the trend, and it makes me sense in the long run. But is it really going to happen yet? Maybe next fall, or the fall after, but this fall? The rMBP just went through a redesign where it got smaller and lighter, so what is the true benefit of taking out the dGPU this fall? Haswell alone should boost battery life to ~10-11 hours. I doubt they'd take the dGPU out just to make that ~12-13, and if so that's relatively pointless to an overall effect. The MBP has been known to many for its capability in not only 3D rendering but also brute force processing. Although performance would not go down in all categories, it would in some. And I'm wondering if it is even logical, even in apple's case, given the state integrated gpu's (Intel's at least) are in right now, that they would switch up the GPU setup this fall.

 

[john123]

I've got a question for anyone that might care to answer. Everyone knows the debate for this upcoming rMBP is whether it's going to get a spec bump for the dGPU or whether they're actually going to ditch the dGPU and only support Iris Pro integrated. With all its limitations, and most likely, (even if they get special order form) highly disappointing results. If not the two options above, then they may choose the route of ???? (doubt they would do anything we aren't expecting at this point). Although I'm sure we can all agree that computers are heading the route of losing their dedicated graphics, because that's the trend, and it makes me sense in the long run. But is it really going to happen yet? Maybe next fall, or the fall after, but this fall? The rMBP just went through a redesign where it got smaller and lighter, so what is the true benefit of taking out the dGPU this fall? Haswell alone should boost battery life to ~10-11 hours. I doubt they'd take the dGPU out just to make that ~12-13, and if so that's relatively pointless to an overall effect. The MBP has been known to many for its capability in not only 3D rendering but also brute force processing. Although performance would not go down in all categories, it would in some. And I'm wondering if it is even logical, even in apple's case, given the state integrated gpu's (Intel's at least) are in right now, that they would switch up the GPU setup this fall.

Holy run on paragraph, Batman!

Yes, it's logical, and yes, it makes sense this fall. You're ignoring the power of marketing. The Iris 5200 is good enough for most pro uses, and they'll be able to show plenty of marketing benchmarks demonstrating improvement from the 650M. That, combined with the extra battery life (and yes, it does matter), will probably be more than enough to tip the scales.

 

[ValSalva]

When will the iMacs rock up then?

That's a different thread I'd guess, if you believe Tim Cook about the army of new products to come that it will be some time this fall.

 

[Vanilla35]

Holy run on paragraph, Batman!

Yes, it's logical, and yes, it makes sense this fall. You're ignoring the power of marketing. The Iris 5200 is good enough for most pro uses, and they'll be able to show plenty of marketing benchmarks demonstrating improvement from the 650M. That, combined with the extra battery life (and yes, it does matter), will probably be more than enough to tip the scales.

Ehhh I mean I understand that. I just feel like they're wrong. But that's alright lol, this way the MBP will be more of a confined machine instead of trying to meet all users means, as the current one's facade tries to achieve. I suppose it will do just fine to maintain the current high end processing needs of those primary MBP users. I still kind of think they're going to need to pull some miracle to get the Iris 5200's power up past the 650M which currently performs more like a 660M, but we'll see what happens.

 

[john123]

Ehhh I mean I understand that. I just feel like they're wrong. But that's alright lol, this way the MBP will be more of a confined machine instead of trying to meet all users means, as the current one's facade tries to achieve. I suppose it will do just fine to maintain the current high end processing needs of those primary MBP users. I still kind of think they're going to need to pull some miracle to get the Iris 5200's power up past the 650M which currently performs more like a 660M, but we'll see what happens.

This won't be the first time we've had a regression in graphics from one MBP model to the next. Generally speaking, it's not a deal breaker for the vast majority of users. And, most users simply aren't going to be sophisticated enough to pore through the numbers and know that the Iris wins on A, B, and C while the 650M would have won on X, Y, and Z.

 

[brandonx76]

And for those graphic/game enthusiasts....maybe Apple will come up with something form factor...

https://www.macrumors.com/2013/07/3...graphics-card-with-complex-thunderbolt-setup/

 

[Ironsyde]

And for those graphic/game enthusiasts....maybe Apple will come up with something form factor...

https://www.macrumors.com/2013/07/3...graphics-card-with-complex-thunderbolt-setup/

If Apple could put together a well-designed eGPU with a decent Nvidia card in it, that would be so awesome.

 

[Jakouf]

I believe there will be two MBPr. One without a dGPU and one with dGPU.

But I have also one question. Why shouldn't be there a Iris Pro and a dGPU in the same chassis. I mean, when the MB is switching to the dGPU why should that take more power, if Intel can power down the Iris Pro as long as the dGPU is in use and when the dGPU is no longer needed, the dGPU can power off and the iGPU can power on. I think that should be possible, but I can be wrong. I'm no Apple Engineer.

 

[john123]

I believe there will be two MBPr. One without a dGPU and one with dGPU.

I believe you're wrong. You and I might like this idea, but from a marketing perspective, it's a catastrophe. The whole idea behind the Iris 5200 is that Intel's closed a lot of the gap with NVIDIA. The fact that Apple and Intel can release cherry-picked benchmarks showing the Iris 5200 kicking NVIDIA's butt on certain tasks means, pretty much, that's what they'll do. Complicating the picture is something you learn in Marketing 101 not to do, and if Apple is good at one thing, it's marketing.

But I have also one question. Why shouldn't be there a Iris Pro and a dGPU in the same chassis. I mean, when the MB is switching to the dGPU why should that take more power, if Intel can power down the Iris Pro as long as the dGPU is in use and when the dGPU is no longer needed, the dGPU can power off and the iGPU can power on. I think that should be possible, but I can be wrong. I'm no Apple Engineer.

As for why there wouldn't be both, the answer is both cost and that it's non-sensical. The 2.4Ghz Haswell with the Iris that we saw in the Geekbench benchmark costs a staggering $657. Plus, the whole idea of GPU switching is to use a low-power chip for everyday tasks and to switch over when the need arises. Given that HD 4000 does fine for everyday tasks today, and the HD 4600 is a significantly better chip, putting an Iris 5200 + dGPU in would make no sense. There's a 0.00% chance of this happening.

Also, is your name really Jakouf?

 

[Jakouf]

I believe you're wrong. You and I might like this idea, but from a marketing perspective, it's a catastrophe. The whole idea behind the Iris 5200 is that Intel's closed a lot of the gap with NVIDIA. The fact that Apple and Intel can release cherry-picked benchmarks showing the Iris 5200 kicking NVIDIA's butt on certain tasks means, pretty much, that's what they'll do. Complicating the picture is something you learn in Marketing 101 not to do, and if Apple is good at one thing, it's marketing.


As for why there wouldn't be both, the answer is both cost and that it's non-sensical. The 2.4Ghz Haswell with the Iris that we saw in the Geekbench benchmark costs a staggering $657. Plus, the whole idea of GPU switching is to use a low-power chip for everyday tasks and to switch over when the need arises. Given that HD 4000 does fine for everyday tasks today, and the HD 4600 is a significantly better chip, putting an Iris 5200 + dGPU in would make no sense. There's a 0.00% chance of this happening.

Also, is your name really Jakouf?

But are they really trying to get a slower GPU to market? What about a non Iris Pro CPU with high clock and a GPU? I mean the problem I have is: Is the iGPU (esp. the bandwidth) fast enough to push not only a retina but also a 2 monitor system?

Yeah. a lot of my friends call me like that

 

[nandopr]

aaaaaaand I got a new 15" rMBP 2.7 i7...


I'm pretty happy w/ it. http://instagram.com/p/caHsbzBglj/

Great! I hope you will enjoy it! I know the feeling. Will get one very soon.

 

[Vanilla35]

I believe you're wrong. You and I might like this idea, but from a marketing perspective, it's a catastrophe. The whole idea behind the Iris 5200 is that Intel's closed a lot of the gap with NVIDIA. The fact that Apple and Intel can release cherry-picked benchmarks showing the Iris 5200 kicking NVIDIA's butt on certain tasks means, pretty much, that's what they'll do. Complicating the picture is something you learn in Marketing 101 not to do, and if Apple is good at one thing, it's marketing.


As for why there wouldn't be both, the answer is both cost and that it's non-sensical. The 2.4Ghz Haswell with the Iris that we saw in the Geekbench benchmark costs a staggering $657. Plus, the whole idea of GPU switching is to use a low-power chip for everyday tasks and to switch over when the need arises. Given that HD 4000 does fine for everyday tasks today, and the HD 4600 is a significantly better chip, putting an Iris 5200 + dGPU in would make no sense. There's a 0.00% chance of this happening.

Also, is your name really Jakouf?

But are they really trying to get a slower GPU to market? What about a non Iris Pro CPU with high clock and a GPU? I mean the problem I have is: Is the iGPU (esp. the bandwidth) fast enough to push not only a retina but also a 2 monitor system?

Yeah. a lot of my friends call me like that

Yeah I'm seriously worried. Because I KNOW that the Retina display already has problems with a laggy interface. Scrolling through Safari with a non-retina MBP you get ~40-60 fps, but with the rMBP you get ~23-30. I've seen it in a few artcles/videos, and I also noticed it myself in the Apple store. I'm concerned to be honest. I'm wondering if they will be able to fix that, or if it's simply too much for the processor. Because to be honest, Even with the 5200's power (dGPU point aside) I doubt it's going to be buttery smooth like the non-retina MBP is.

 

[B...]

Yeah I'm seriously worried. Because I KNOW that the Retina display already has problems with a laggy interface. Scrolling through Safari with a non-retina MBP you get ~40-60 fps, but with the rMBP you get ~23-30. I've seen it in a few artcles/videos, and I also noticed it myself in the Apple store. I'm concerned to be honest. I'm wondering if they will be able to fix that, or if it's simply too much for the processor. Because to be honest, Even with the 5200's power (dGPU point aside) I doubt it's going to be buttery smooth like the non-retina MBP is.

If it's a hardware issue, why does Webkit fix it?

 

[Vanilla35]

If it's a hardware issue, why does Webkit fix it?

Ah I was unaware that it might be a software. That seems logical, Although I heard it was across more than just Safari, it was the example I was shown. Some of the things I reviewed were from 10-6 months ago though, so those issues could have already been resolved.

 

[jxie0755]

I've got a question for anyone that might care to answer. Everyone knows the debate for this upcoming rMBP is whether it's going to get a spec bump for the dGPU or whether they're actually going to ditch the dGPU and only support Iris Pro integrated. With all its limitations, and most likely, (even if they get special order form) highly disappointing results. If not the two options above, then they may choose the route of ???? (doubt they would do anything we aren't expecting at this point). Although I'm sure we can all agree that computers are heading the route of losing their dedicated graphics, because that's the trend, and it makes me sense in the long run. But is it really going to happen yet? Maybe next fall, or the fall after, but this fall? The rMBP just went through a redesign where it got smaller and lighter, so what is the true benefit of taking out the dGPU this fall? Haswell alone should boost battery life to ~10-11 hours. I doubt they'd take the dGPU out just to make that ~12-13, and if so that's relatively pointless to an overall effect. The MBP has been known to many for its capability in not only 3D rendering but also brute force processing. Although performance would not go down in all categories, it would in some. And I'm wondering if it is even logical, even in apple's case, given the state integrated gpu's (Intel's at least) are in right now, that they would switch up the GPU setup this fall.

Basically what you said is:
You know iGPU is the trend, but you are asking if it is happening.
And you want to delay the trend, so that you can have dGPU cause it is faster

Well, look how much did you write for this.

 

[Vanilla35]

Basically what you said is:
You know iGPU is the trend, but you are asking if it is happening.
And you want to delay the trend, so that you can have dGPU cause it is faster

Well, look how much did you write for this.

Lol I like to go in depth when describing something. I realize not splitting it into paragraphs doesn't help, but oh well. Also, the point can be displayed in that way, but the integrity of the post cannot

 

[john123]

But are they really trying to get a slower GPU to market? What about a non Iris Pro CPU with high clock and a GPU? I mean the problem I have is: Is the iGPU (esp. the bandwidth) fast enough to push not only a retina but also a 2 monitor system?

The Iris Pro 5200 slower in some things and, allegedly, faster than the 650M in others, like compute tasks. You can obviously expect that they'll focus on the positives in the marketing collateral and ignore the drawbacks. It certainly can handle the tasks you described.

As for the non-Iris Pro (i.e., the HD4600) plus a dGPU, that was what everyone expected. But the existence of the leaked benchmark with the Iris Pro 5200 is what has everyone believing that's where Apple is headed. It's not totally out of the realm of possibility that there are multiple prototypes floating around, but it's also not likely either.

------

Even with the 5200's power (dGPU point aside) I doubt it's going to be buttery smooth like the non-retina MBP is.

Yeah, probably not. But remember how big the jump was going from Lion to Mountain Lion? You'll probably see some (albeit fewer) improvements with Mavericks. My own experience on the 650M+Mavericks is that things are smooth enough for everyday use.

 

[macuserx86]

dGPU might be out of the equation, but I'm hoping Apple gets to work on making the software much more efficient to compensate. Obviously bootcamp performance will be terrible.

 

[thundersteele]

Does the rMBP perform much better with the dGPU activated? I'm not talking gaming performance but things like scrolling in Safari and general screen lag. I'm trying to understand if the problem comes from a lack of raw graphics computing power or if it is also due to a lack of optimization etc.

 

[john123]

Does the rMBP perform much better with the dGPU activated? I'm not talking gaming performance but things like scrolling in Safari and general screen lag. I'm trying to understand if the problem comes from a lack of raw graphics computing power or if it is also due to a lack of optimization etc.

It's not a big difference. You can download gfxCardStatus and force it to use the dGPU to see.

 

[Tomerco]

today i took a visit into one of apple stores, i tried the 13" retina pro and it was so laggy in safari!!! it was actually a deal breaker for me.
i thought i might grab one, now when he prices are down, but laggy scrolling on a 1500$ machine is just ridiculous...
Apple seems to make alot of mistakes lately
- the iphone 4 antenna problem.
- retina 15" IR
- retina 13" laggy UI
- Iphone 5 battery life

apple should start taking us the customers seriously...

 

[jxie0755]

Lol I like to go in depth when describing something. I realize not splitting it into paragraphs doesn't help, but oh well. Also, the point can be displayed in that way, but the integrity of the post cannot

Well, let me tell you my opinion:

Yes I think iGPU is the trend, and it is happening.
Maybe not as fast as dGPU at this moment, but iGPU does have other benefits comparing to dGPU.

On the one hand we should trust Apple would not give us an upgraded model that is worse than it's predecessor. On the other hand, we should not apply the macbook into some area that it is not designed for, example like extensive 3D gaming, then ask nothing but a dGPU and neglect all the other factors that are important to regular customers.

As for you, I know what you want. You want a super fast dGPU on the new model, then you buy it and use for a couple of years, by the time you are buying the next one, the iGPU is already faster than dGPU, so that you don't have to worry about.

 

[sofianito]

today i took a visit into one of apple stores, i tried the 13" retina pro and it was so laggy in safari!!! it was actually a deal breaker for me.
i thought i might grab one, now when he prices are down, but laggy scrolling on a 1500$ machine is just ridiculous...
Apple seems to make alot of mistakes lately
- the iphone 4 antenna problem.
- retina 15" IR
- retina 13" laggy UI
- Iphone 5 battery life

apple should start taking us the customers seriously...

How can they take customers seriously if they keep voting them with their money...

 

[Vanilla35]

Well, let me tell you my opinion:

Yes I think iGPU is the trend, and it is happening.
Maybe not as fast as dGPU at this moment, but iGPU does have other benefits comparing to dGPU.

On the one hand we should trust Apple would not give us an upgraded model that is worse than it's predecessor. On the other hand, we should not apply the macbook into some area that it is not designed for, example like extensive 3D gaming, then ask nothing but a dGPU and neglect all the other factors that are important to regular customers.

As for you, I know what you want. You want a super fast dGPU on the new model, then you buy it and use for a couple of years, by the time you are buying the next one, the iGPU is already faster than dGPU, so that you don't have to worry about.

Sorry I just realized I totally quoted you by accident...

Either way, yeah I know what you're saying. I guess I'm just a little bummed because I was looking at getting the new retina once it refreshes, but I'm trying too hard to convince myself to buy a computer that isn't going to be as good for me as a window's alternative would be. I would like to game to a certain proficiency, and I suppose I'll be looking at 1.2-1.6K computers with the same specs (but better GPU), but running windows

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrr I may just say the hell with it, and end up buying the new retina when it comes out. That or if it's seriously not up to snuff I'll buy the February 2013, for the dGPU. That might seriously be a valid option for me. Far cry 2 runs at 40-50 frames with the 650M, but if it's only 25-30 with the iris pro then screw that I'm buying the old version

How can they take customers seriously if they keep voting them with their money...

So much irony to it, but very true statement

 

[twingo]

I need a 17 Retina Haswell Macbook Pro with a small bezel, no dGPU and 10 hours battery life. Together with my iPad as a second screen, this would be a great workstation on the go as well as at home.