I was under the impression that 10Gb was likely going to be on the middle to high end X299 Mobos: http://www.anandtech.com/show/11478/asrock-announces-x299-professional-gaming-i9-with-10gig-ethernet
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MP 7,1 Waiting for Mac Pro 7,1 A1991 (no more)
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I was under the impression that 10Gb was likely going to be on the middle to high end X299 Mobos: http://www.anandtech.com/show/11478/asrock-announces-x299-professional-gaming-i9-with-10gig-ethernet
Well, its the top model with a 6 core and the 16GB RAM BTO. The problem is the socket changes if you want a 6 core, so you have ECC support that I suppose you could either use or not, but you really might as well use the Xeons since they are typically almost identical in both spec and price to the Core -X versions. Not sure why having a non-Vega GPU would be a problem in that machine either....
Agreed. Not all pro users need a Xeon processor - and the Skylake X is targeted directly at those people - it's still a "pro chip". Apple ignored EVERY version of the i7 6 and 8 core chips for the iMac for the burgeoning pro iMac users.
A friend and I have been talking about this over the past few years, and started it up again when Apple first announced they're making an iMac Pro. We believed Apple's biggest mistake would be to use Xeon chips in this particular system, especially when they're going to be using the Xeons in the Modular system. That's a massive point of differentiation.
It seems Apple doesn't want to acknowledge, much less believe, such pro users exist.
To me, that's the crux of the backlash against this iMac Pro. Yes, I know some people are loving it. I know a LOT of people are pjssed because it's overkill.
I would have been fantastically excited had Apple skipped the Xeons, ECC memory, and Vega GPU (maybe make that upgrade option), and started with a 6-core, 16GB RAM, Radeon Pro 580, and dropped the price by $1,800. Then I could have talked myself into wanting that 5K display, even though I don't technically need it.
Look at the ram pricing difference between Apple and OWC.
https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/memory/imac-2017-27-inch
https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/imac?product=MNED2LL/A&step=config#
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No - not really. I still come up with around $3,855 - depending on the price of video card. I was looking across a bunch of different numbers. LOL
CPU - $600
Mobo - $300
RAM - $500
SSD - $480
GPU - $500
PSU - $125
Case - $150
Perifs - $200
Display - $1000
I went to a PC on an x99 chipset for this reason. I could get a 6-core CPU for a bit over the price of a standard high-end i7 and upgrade to a Xeon if I needed to later. More importantly I could get 128GB RAM cost-effectively for my VM lab. I can swap out storage and my GPU as I need to. I prefer Mac OS, but Windows 10 will have to do because I get the hardware I want. I honestly don't get why Apple can't see that these kind of users exist, especially as they came from an enthusiast background - they've only to ask their own engineers (rather than the design team) what type of machine they would like and the could come up with something better than they already have.
I think however all the enthusiasts have left Apple (at least the ones with any influence) and have been replaced by fashion designers.
A few more cores for multi tasking. The Skylake X chip is barely more expensive than the current 7700k. Plus, you can upgrade the 8, 10, 12 or 18 core SL X without changing the socket. So there are options. Just don't need the $2,000 pricing for the 8 core Xeon.
If you only need 4 cores, then stick with the regular iMac.
Didn't need ECC support for the iMac Pro - leave that to the mMP.
No idea how much the Vega is going to be priced at - I can't imagine the initial pricing won't be high. If it comes in at $500 - great. Use it.
Really - there is middle ground here that Apple is missing...
There is also a mention of Aquantia AQtion in the kext files for Hight Sierra.
TBC
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I agree the guy in your link does great work, my comment never said you need the best stuff to do the best work. That has never been a fact.
No you do not need an iMac pro high end thing to do pro work but what I was saying was that there is a market for the high end stuff.
What I was getting at regarding expensive is the fact that there are people out there at a level where they have spent tens of thousands of dollars on cameras where the cost makes apple pricing look like chump change. Examples being Hasselblad and phase one medium format cameras for photographers, and Red and Arri cinema cameras for videographers.
Now yes that is a high level niche market that not many people work at but the market exists and that I think is who apple is marketing towards with the iMac pro.
My brother sells high end barbecues and he showed me one that was $20,000. Now most would think wow thats crazy nobody would buy that, but he told me that the high end stuff he sells in the market they cater to sell more often then people would think.
For the average joe like myself and others it can be hard to relate, but I see this world quite regularly so am used to it but there is a whole bunch of people out there who operate at a level way beyond most of us.
The reason I don't get price shock regarding costs anymore is that I am slowly trying to work towards that high level. I want to get to a point where I can buy the high end stuff.
I think that your post is nonsense.
If you had said "I want to get to a point where I need to buy the high end" instead of "I want to get to a point where I can buy the high end" it would have been defensible.
I'm of two minds on what the iMac Pro means for the Mac Pro eventuality.
On one hand, it's clear that at one point, this was going to be the pro computer. So either they're designing the Mac Pro to hit the same niche but headless, or they're going to aim for something a bit different.
Really, unless you're Aiden level here, the iMac Pro seems like it covers most high-perf needs, assuming the thermals hold. So what that leaves is upgrade potential and expandability. If they're leaning on the latter, then the Mac Pro could actually come in (at a base level) quite a bit cheaper, and it'll be a matter of how you BTO which boosts price—skimping on processor to boost graphics, or the other way around. It certainly won't have a $1K display in it, so I doubt it's going to start at a $5K price. Especially if they kill off the mini it might be smart for it to straddle a bit more of the lower end and ramp up as needs (and price consciousness) dictate.
On the plus side, I think the iMac Pro does give us two big indicators for what will be on the Mac Pro—legacy USB-A ports alongside TB3, and 10gE. Which are both very nice to have.
EDIT: One other possible plus for the Mac Pro I didn't think about initially—even if it doesn't ship with them, the ability to use Nvidia GPUs (even if only through an eGPU solution alongside their other Macs, which would likely be a bigger deal.)
On one hand, it's clear that at one point, this was going to be the pro computer. So either they're designing the Mac Pro to hit the same niche but headless, or they're going to aim for something a bit different.
Really, unless you're Aiden level here, the iMac Pro seems like it covers most high-perf needs, assuming the thermals hold. So what that leaves is upgrade potential and expandability. If they're leaning on the latter, then the Mac Pro could actually come in (at a base level) quite a bit cheaper, and it'll be a matter of how you BTO which boosts price—skimping on processor to boost graphics, or the other way around. It certainly won't have a $1K display in it, so I doubt it's going to start at a $5K price. Especially if they kill off the mini it might be smart for it to straddle a bit more of the lower end and ramp up as needs (and price consciousness) dictate.
On the plus side, I think the iMac Pro does give us two big indicators for what will be on the Mac Pro—legacy USB-A ports alongside TB3, and 10gE. Which are both very nice to have.
EDIT: One other possible plus for the Mac Pro I didn't think about initially—even if it doesn't ship with them, the ability to use Nvidia GPUs (even if only through an eGPU solution alongside their other Macs, which would likely be a bigger deal.)
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heh, i spend more on internet and phone service than i do computers.
computers = approx $1750 / year
• 2@$3500 for 4yrs each
internet = approx $2350/ year
basically - 3 @ $65/month average.
(granted- one of these services is to my apt.. one is to my phone.. though they're both being used for work as well as posting on macrumors.. tbh, i even use my shop wifi to post here on occasion
)-----
also-- you ever try to lease shop space in NYC? that alone makes computer prices laughable
but point being-- it doesn't take a $40,000 camera for computer costs to be dwarfed by other business expenses or tools.
it's not niche_y for a computer's cost to look like chump change when compared to the other expenses.. pretty standard actually.
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however
for a one-person shop doing something like graphics design out of their home then yeah, $5k minimum on a computer is probably real expensive.. also for a computer enthusiast, $5k is potentially really expensive.
and in those two cases, apple is pretty much pricing them out of the computers these people might really want and have been able to buy in the past.
i don't really have much to say about that other than i do see that it's happening.
There's really little point in making a headless iMac Xeon.
Dual socket, 1 TiB RAM, dual 10 GbE, support for quad x16 PCIe graphics - or just give up. Admit that the Z-series is the future.
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I live a few kilometers from the new Apple Doughnut campus. $5K/month is reasonable rent.
But it's true. If I only brought what I needed then my budget wouldn't need to be as high.
Once a persons or at least my needs are satisfied anything over that becomes a want.
Also I like high end things that tend to be very expensive. I do like luxurious stuff. I must admit I used to be rather self conscious about it as I'm a working class guy. But I like what I like and don't apologise about it anymore.
I don't have much money, I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination. I just like nice things. I'm just not frugal. I tried to be and it never worked.
personally, i think goals like that are sweet.
if your livelihood is based around your computer then you're going to have to earn back 50x its cost with it.
but if you support yourself by other means, a cool little goal when buying a computer would be to earn back 1x its price.. if that type of goal can be met then yeah, buy any computer you want.. regardless of if you need it.. you learned or created some stuff and the computer is free.
win win
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also, if you want a certain computer and you can come up with the dough to pay for it ..and that's it.
then hey, have at it..
for one, it's not really any of my business what or how you buy.. for two, i don't really even care anyway
like, i'm not trying to be judgy about any of this.. just talking. but i hope it's not coming off the wrong way.
personally, i think goals like that are sweet.
if your livelihood is based around your computer then you're going to have to earn back 50x its cost with it.
but if you support yourself by other means, a cool little goal when buying a computer would be to earn back 1x its price.. if that type of goal can be met then yeah, buy any computer you want.. regardless of if you need it.. you learned or created some stuff and the computer is free.
win win
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also, if you want a certain computer and you can come up with the dough to pay for it ..and that's it.
then hey, have at it..
for one, it's not really any of my business what or how you buy.. for two, i don't really even care anyway
like, i'm not trying to be judgy about any of this.. just talking. but i hope it's not coming off the wrong way.
No worries I know what you mean, look my wallet is no magic money well. I have been there done that when it comes to having no money and not being able to afford anything. I come from lower means, I am 29 and am single with no children. I have just decided that I will not go into debt for it (have enough of that already) but if I see something I want and I have the money in my bank to afford it then I will buy it. If I don't have the money but really want it then I will raise the funds to buy it whether by saving up or by working more or whatever, but I don't bother trying to find a cheaper alternative as I've found when I've done that I have never been happy as it always felt like a compromise and I hate compromising.
I honestly just got so sick of having to justify my purchases to people that I honestly now every time I get asked why I brought something I just say because I wanted it. I am not hurting anybody. It is all on me at the end of the day.
I want to buy new furniture for myself but the stuff I like costs thousands. Beats me how I'm going to pay for it but I will figure it out.
Depends, but big enterprises who have outsourced their IT most probably avoid all extra work on-site and just switch the broken machine. There's no time to do diagnose it at the customer. IT service provider have some ready-to-go machines in stock and if something breaks, they'll just switch the broken with a spare one. Then the broken one is sent to the manufacturer for warranty repair.
[doublepost=1496914917][/doublepost]What comes to iMac Pro, I'm sure it will have some popularity among Autocad users, 3D -designers etc. I suppose Apple will release Final Cut Pro VR edition with iMac Pro next December. If Apple has managed to keep the computer as quiet as tcMP, it is a good replacement for it. Waiting for the Apple's vision of a true workstation a la mMP.
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I'm sure a large part of the 2013 rationale was that user directories would be on a server, and the ssd would only ever be for the OS, apps and maybe caches, and if / when it broke, you'd just unplug & drop in one of the spares.
buuut there's a lot of creative pro work done by one person shops, subcontracting from larger places, folks who can't afford a whole machine in reserve.
True. That is part of the risks the entrepreneur has to take, and I suppose there are insurances sold against the risk as well. Similarly as a private taxi driver is in trouble if the car breaks and there's little the driver can do to fix it. A big company can have a quota of cars, but the small company can't.
This is not a speech to defend Apple, I've always built and tuned my PCs myself. But then again, even Windows users today have accepted that laptops are not user serviceable any more... not even the so called workstation laptops. This is where the industry is going, to earn some extra money.
There are still some options to vote with a wallet... I hope Apple is interested in that money in the form of modular MP.
Update: new iMac 21.5" is using so-dimms, but needs a service provider to open the case... that's an improvement.
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And Apple's Time Machine is part of that scenario to have backups of the local files in case their sealed system breaks.
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Speaking of modular - where you can even update an "external ports" module...
This would make for a fascinating modular Mac Pro. If you want 4 TH3 ports and 4 USB-C ports, a pair of 10Gb Ethernet ports...etc, or you could add a module with 4 TB3 and 4 USB 3 ports, yadda yadda yadda...
Make it easy to swap the processor, ram and video card, and wow. Total user friendly upgradability.
Imagine the pricing for the connectivity module.
This would make for a fascinating modular Mac Pro. If you want 4 TH3 ports and 4 USB-C ports, a pair of 10Gb Ethernet ports...etc, or you could add a module with 4 TB3 and 4 USB 3 ports, yadda yadda yadda...
Make it easy to swap the processor, ram and video card, and wow. Total user friendly upgradability.
Imagine the pricing for the connectivity module.
I think you are absolutely clueless about high end photo and video equipment and workflow.
So, I suppose you mean to say that workstation/server grade parts are useless? You do realize that many manufacturers make these types of machines, right? You realize that Apple isn't the only company using Xeon CPUs, workstation GPUs, ECC RAM and extremely high-speed NVMe SSDs right?
The point isn't just raw horsepower. It's about stable, repeatable, dependable performance with fault tolerance. If you don't need that, by all means, go build yourself a consumer-grade Hackintosh and be happy with it. But don't pretend that some, in fact many, don't need these things. Almost anyone who earns a paycheck using their computer would at least *like* to have them.
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Couldn't agree more. I own a 5,1 with a pretty beefy spec because I could afford it and I do a lot of screwing around with audio, video, and am trying to get into some ML stuff. But at this point in time it earns me no money (apart from when I use it to run Think or Swim to manage my portfolio) and I certainly don't delude myself into thinking I'm who it was originally targeted at. It seems many are unable to also think this way.
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No where did I say that no one needed the server grade hardware - of course some do. Apple has a Mac Pro coming-out sometime in the next year or so - so there you go.
I'm simply saying there are a LOT of pro users out there who don't need that high level of a machine, nor do they use it. Some use the regular iMac very dependably and successfully. Others, like me, want a bit more (more cores?) for their work - but not to the point of the $5,000 iMac Pro - which would have been the perfect vehicle for the "next step" - not that "giant leap".
What's so difficult in understanding there's zero reason to believe there couldn't be a middle ground between the 5K iMac and iMac Pro without the $5,000 starting price tag? And for that $5,000 price tag, (so far) it's an entirely closed system - with no user upgradable parts. If you want to future proof your purchase and add 64GB of RAM, you'll likely be spending $6,400 on the iMac Pro. If you want to add a second PCIe flash drive, (which it seems like very probable) it'll likely cost you another $600 for a 500GB flash drive. ...and what could possibly go wrong with an entirely enclosed proprietary system?
As for stable, repeatable, dependable performance with fault tolerance, ask the 2013 Mac Pro users how they feel about their system and their GPU problems.
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mac-pro-late-2013-gpu-driver-issues.1860297/
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So in other words, you'd want to have a Vega GPU with Core i7, right? I'm sure there will be a regular iMac 2018 with Vega GPU. Why would Apple promote it now? iMac Pro is coming almost next year as well.
Adding 32GB Ram, 1TB SSD and Core i7 makes the iMac 2017 pretty expensive middle ground machine. And maybe with high Sierra and eGPU it can have any GPU existing for Mac.
Apple set iMac Pro's price so high, that regular iMac buyers wouldn't post pone their buying decision to next December to see if they'd buy that instead. Now they just lol at home who's gonna be so crazy simple minded Apple freak to buy a $4999 aio machine.
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