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I am not saying that iMac Pro/2013 MP suits everybody. Look higher up in the thread. I just said that there are people who like iMac Pro/2013 MP and why should they accept a cheese grater type of MP if they do not need the expansion? As I said before, do not trash the 2013 MP/Imac Pro just because you need a mac with internal expansion. What is the point? There are room for everyone. I advocate two computer. However, it may not make any business sense. I don't know because I have not seen the sale number etc so I want to keep neutral about success and failure of Apple product. Not easy as I have a preference (as everybody else).

I use Modo to create teaching material and short animations. I like Modo's render engine and it is fast despite being purely CPU based. Quality is OK for what I am doing. The 8-core 2013 MP was significantly faster than any iMac 4 years ago and still beats any iMac when it comes to silence. With coffeelake around the corner i might switch to iMac but that depend on the cooling system of the iMac. I have a funny feeling Apple will make a thinner iMac with 65W max processors. If so the iMac Pro is probably better choice for me and ah, that dark design, it does not hurt does it? Hope it passes the "wife" test as it going to be placed in our library.

No I am not an Apple share holder but have worked with installation of PC some decades ago. I struck me that PC where design by engineer for engineers. Lots of expansion possibilities that where never used and hence money out of the window. That changed with AIO and laptops.


Ah. Ok. Modo will have an inbuilt GPU renderer soon, though it's in pretty early stages - AMD pro renderer (already part of Cinema4D ). And once you go GPU rendering it's hard to go back to CPU and even the traditional bottlenecks - Out of core, Idle CPUs will be a thing of the past the way renders are moving, harnessing all the power of the system - GPU+CPU.

Based on what you are doing, I think an iMac pro seems to be a good choice. For now.
 
You and many other are doing as always:forcing a format of a computer (user upgradable, big, lots of ports)to others that may not need it. Tell me, why should I pay for something I will not use?

You know, I never understood the logic of this argument. It's like insisting that you can only draw venn diagrams with two circles, and neither of them can touch / overlap each other. And it is about as annoying as the 'well it works fine for me' response that seems to sit at the top of every forum thread asking for troubleshooting assistance.
 
You and many other are doing as always:forcing a format of a computer (user upgradable, big, lots of ports)to others that may not need it. Tell me, why should I pay for something I will not use?

Then IMHO, you are not a candidate for a Mac Pro. An iMac Pro would suit you just fine. But, for those of us who want a machine we can keep for awhile and keep relevant, an expandable machine with good architecture is just the ticket.

We are not forcing anything on you. Apple makes plenty of machines NOW, that would suit you just fine. No current Macintosh suits me however.

AND note - I have been using Macintosh since 1986.

Lou
 
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You and many other are doing as always:forcing a format of a computer (user upgradable, big, lots of ports)to others that may not need it. Tell me, why should I pay for something I will not use? I thought the "Amigos" said the 2013 MP was in a thermal corner. The iMac Pro is in the same thermal corner. 2013 a bad workstation? Do you have numbers supporting this claim? If so, can you really tell if the format of the 2013 MP is the reason or if other factors are affecting the workstation market such as software support?

Unfortunately, losing all that expandability that you didn't use, didn't reduce the price of the machine, which is part of the unrest over the cylinder, and was at the core of the distaste for the G4 cube.

Ideally, you shouldn't have to pay for capacity you don't need - that's why so many of us find the iMac unpleasant, we don't want to have to buy a monitor to get a new computer (or in the case of the 2013, didn't want to buy dual or AMD video cards). Ideally, the Mac Pro would be like those modular wish-fulfilment designs we've seen, where the PCI section was a separate module from the processor and iO sections, linked by some sort of hyper-fast, super-wide connector (which Thunderbolt isn't).

BUT, in the scenario where Apple is going to not make a lego kit machine, what is better overall, that you personally have machine with some unused extra capacity that sits idle, or that people who need that flexibility leave the mac ecosystem entirely, and take with them part of the pool of potential Mac Pro customers, which further endangers your chances of getting new Mac Pros into the future?

As it stands, you're still going to get the only machine you were going to have an option to get - the iMac Pro was going to be the only Pro desktop in Apple's future, the sole replacement for the 2013. So realistically, the discussion is to speculate about what the philosophy behind the machine that Apple wasn't going to build will be.

What the amigos said about what was wrong with the 2013 was flavoured with PR - yes painting themselves into a thermal corner is bad, but what that really says is that they made a design that allowed them to be painted into a thermal corner. It was the philosophy of the design that was wrong, not the implementation, but saying that would raise questions about leadership direction etc which can effect stock prices, investor lawsuits etc.
 
I really stirred up the hornets nest this time. :). No a modular MP is not for me, but you know, I will not speak ill about it it just becuase of that. The discussion would be much nicer and much more informative if you accepted and accounted for different user cases. There is more than a tendancy here that the 2013 MP gets hate when in relity Apple should get hate for not having a ungradable MP in their product portfolio. Similarly, if the iMac Pro will be discontinued becuase of a mMP, I will be very irritated. In my opinion they are both ”Pro” but aimed at different user settings.
[doublepost=1510138262][/doublepost]
Ah. Ok. Modo will have an inbuilt GPU renderer soon, though it's in pretty early stages - AMD pro renderer (already part of Cinema4D ). And once you go GPU rendering it's hard to go back to CPU and even the traditional bottlenecks - Out of core, Idle CPUs will be a thing of the past the way renders are moving, harnessing all the power of the system - GPU+CPU.

Based on what you are doing, I think an iMac pro seems to be a good choice. For now.
Thanks for the rumour. I have not followed the updates at The foundary for awhile. Hope they also include Mac support for the GPU render.
 
if the iMac Pro will be discontinued becuase of a mMP, I will be very irritated. In my opinion they are both ”Pro” but aimed at different user settings.

Yes, as I stated above. The iMac Pro for YOU, The Trash Can - not for ME, however:eek:

Lou
 
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I struck me that PC where design by engineer for engineers. Lots of expansion possibilities that where never used and hence money out of the window.

Actually blame the marketing department for all those never used slot, as it was a major feature on the 80's, while actually was unusual somebody used more than three expansion slots, and this because one was populated by the video, and the audio, later with the Integrated peripherals popularity the expansion slots become a thing for gamers and very specialized users.
 
Actually, recalling my experiences with computers of the 80's and 90's. Sanyo MBC-555 only had like one slot on it, which pissed me off. My ZX-81 had one slot but you could piggyback. All the PS/2 systems I worked on were 1/2 slot on risers iirc. In fact it was the Apple IIe that was the ubiquitous expansion slot monster back in the day. As pros/hobbyists we had no problems filling up the slots on those 286+ generic PCs... because nothing was onboard.... Interesting that, you didn't get anything you didn't pay for, wasn't that the motivation of the post ? Ironic.
 
I still remain utterly confused as to why people still feel personally, emotionally attacked by the fact that Apple is making an iMac Pro. This nonsense has been going on for 5 months now and it seems like it's not stopping any time soon. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Period. The end. Over. Done. Finished. If it's not for you, it's not for you. They doubtless will sell many of them, which is good for them and good for the people that buy them. I don't see why we need to continue to whine about this machine as if somehow in any way it affects you as a person if you *are not buying one.*

Anyway.

The "all things to all people" line is pretty much the only thing that matters. It needs to be a workstation that can be used for any sort of heavy workload easily. Full-stop. And needs to be upgradable. And, again, given the harsh lesson they've learned, I'm quite sure it will be. I get why there's cynicism, but again, they didn't build the nMP just to make MacRumors forum members angry, as hard to believe as that may be for some of you. That's not really a viable business model, trolling your customers.
 
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Piggyback? Behold, the venerable TI home computer...

Ti994_long.jpg
 
The amount of work that is farmed out and not actually done by the people who claim to do it in the content world is huge - simple example, Weta farmed out huge amounts of the CG for the Lord of the Rings films, for which they were credited, to other firms, like Animal Logic who were then contractually prevented from ever acknowledging their contribution.
this is so standard it's not even funny.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_for_hire


i mean, when's the last time you saw a photographer credited with shooting an ad campaign?.. it's so rare to see something like that happen unless, maybe, the photographer is famous or that the ad was shot by a particular photographer is part of the spiel..

if i hire you to come shoot a project of mine, you get your credit alright.. the credit is in the form of my money in your hands.


(and i'm just using photographer as a single example)
 
If the base model of the iMac Pro is $4,999 what will be the price of the mMP's? Apple, we know you don't like to forecast these things but give us a hint. This can be done on a shoe string budget by placing a video on YouTube. Have an Apple employee stand in front of an Apple logo backdrop. The employee is holding a dandelion, looks into the camera and blows. This will signify the answer traveling around the world!
So again, if the mMP's are $5,999, $7,999 and $9,999... :p

View attachment 732694
Just about iphone x....lol.
 
i mean, when's the last time you saw a photographer credited with shooting an ad campaign?

I guess the main difference is that WETA were very much trading on the effects for LOTR being done in-house. It's one thing for an ad agency to hire a photographer and not credit them (although under Moral Rights law, which I don't believe America adheres to very strongly, work for hire doesn't generally extinguish the right to be credited), it's another altogether for them to publicly talk about how they shot it themselves with one of their inhouse employees, collect awards for "their" photography etc.

In the case of LOTR, artists at the subcontracted studios weren't allowed to ever claim credit for their work, use it in showreels etc. It's quite a sore point for the folks involved.
 
Back when the cheese grater mac pro was still available new I remember I priced one out just too see what it would cost here in New Zealand if one was maxed out. In New Zealand dollars at the time it was over $20,000
 
Perhaps, but it was never intended fo average consumer.

You're definitely right. However, some may wonder if professionals have enough money to buy the maxed out version, do they really need to work at all? :D
[doublepost=1510364456][/doublepost]Moving on... I believe almost everybody (including me) believes that eGPUs aren't a mMP issue. Nevertheless, I think it's worth noticing how the market is moving.

https://9to5mac.com/2017/11/10/sonnet-egfx-breakaway-box-550-external-gpu-87w-power-delivery/

Will TB4 avoid data flow saturation for the high-end cards?
 
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You're definitely right. However, some may wonder if professionals have enough money to buy the maxed out version, do they really need to work at all? :D
[doublepost=1510364456][/doublepost]Moving on... I believe almost everybody (including me) believes that eGPUs aren't a mMP issue. Nevertheless, I think it's worth noticing how the market is moving.

https://9to5mac.com/2017/11/10/sonnet-egfx-breakaway-box-550-external-gpu-87w-power-delivery/

Will TB4 avoid data flow saturation for the high-end cards?
:D Good ol' customizing classic mac pro.
 
Your too low according to 9-5mac the imac pro may max out at 17K. ouch! way too rich for my budget.
https://9to5mac.com/2017/06/13/maxed-out-imac-pro-cost/
Another 9to5mac article targeted as click bait to build traffic, and of course lack accuracy, just check the relative markups Apple billed on the tcMP6,1 three year ago.

I've done some numbers and I consider the loaded iMac wont rise beyond 9999$, and it is mostly due Intel hiking Xeon-W prices by about 25% compared with 2013 figures, while AMD GPUs are now cheaper, as SSD toos, memory quite stable sadly memory will be the most expensive upgrade.

PD. Before iMacs release, 9to5mac will publish the AWWWEEEESOME MIGHTY GOAL BY APPLE Selling the iMac Pro at 70% less than Analysts predicted (their analysts)...
 
You're definitely right. However, some may wonder if professionals have enough money to buy the maxed out version, do they really need to work at all? :D
[doublepost=1510364456][/doublepost]Moving on... I believe almost everybody (including me) believes that eGPUs aren't a mMP issue. Nevertheless, I think it's worth noticing how the market is moving.

https://9to5mac.com/2017/11/10/sonnet-egfx-breakaway-box-550-external-gpu-87w-power-delivery/

Will TB4 avoid data flow saturation for the high-end cards?
TB4 needs to have more pci-e lanes and maybe pci-e 4.0
 
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Unfortunately, losing all that expandability that you didn't use, didn't reduce the price of the machine, which is part of the unrest over the cylinder, and was at the core of the distaste for the G4 cube.

Ideally, you shouldn't have to pay for capacity you don't need - that's why so many of us find the iMac unpleasant, we don't want to have to buy a monitor to get a new computer (or in the case of the 2013, didn't want to buy dual or AMD video cards). Ideally, the Mac Pro would be like those modular wish-fulfilment designs we've seen, where the PCI section was a separate module from the processor and iO sections, linked by some sort of hyper-fast, super-wide connector (which Thunderbolt isn't).

BUT, in the scenario where Apple is going to not make a lego kit machine, what is better overall, that you personally have machine with some unused extra capacity that sits idle, or that people who need that flexibility leave the mac ecosystem entirely, and take with them part of the pool of potential Mac Pro customers, which further endangers your chances of getting new Mac Pros into the future?
Yeah, it's a tough spot. Right now I'd just like them to give us a decent EFI for nMP until 7,1 arrives (I think it should boot with 6 eGPUs attached, if not more - TB2 was supposed to be the bomb).

You're definitely right. However, some may wonder if professionals have enough money to buy the maxed out version, do they really need to work at all? :D
[doublepost=1510364456][/doublepost]Moving on... I believe almost everybody (including me) believes that eGPUs aren't a mMP issue. Nevertheless, I think it's worth noticing how the market is moving.

https://9to5mac.com/2017/11/10/sonnet-egfx-breakaway-box-550-external-gpu-87w-power-delivery/

Will TB4 avoid data flow saturation for the high-end cards?
Yes the 7,1 should have plenty of room for internal GPUs, but we should also be able to stack them in an eGPU enclosure if we wish. For a lot of strictly computational tasks, the TB2 penalty is fairly insignificant. Bit if your particular task is chatty and requires a lot of bandwidth... Yeah I think TB4 + PCIe 4 will begin to address that issue.
 
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That's what the world needs: a Mac Pro with 8 or 10 PCIe slots that would allow installation of that many video cards for Bitcoin mining.
A "Mac Pro Bitcoin Miner".
Or: install 4x GTX Titan X video cards, for live streaming 8k video content.
 
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Do you have any real numbers instead of "huge"? Can that community pay for the development of an mMP that suits them? I do not think so. Look at the pattern: everyone screams for user upgradable systems when in reality user want to avoid Apples upgrade costs. Part of Apple expensive BTO options may be to cover the whole platforms development costs. Using systems for >3-4 years (which make sense) also dilute the contribution to sustainable development.

(As good of a context as any to comment & continue)

On sales volume, I think it comes down to a couple of factors and considerations. Sure, we can try to wave over a crystal ball to guess at unit volumes, but the IMO simpler metric is simply to ask "what's the 3rd Party aftermarket like?". Point being that if Company XYZ is willing to design, fab & sell something like an SSD upgrade for a tcMP, then the tcMP market is presumably "big enough" that they see a viable business opportunity. And so on.

Problem with this approach is that these opportunities may be "too small" for the $0.9T Market Cap Apple to consider worth bothering to go after ... but this really also crosses this conversation into marketing, cross-product line revenues, and so forth. To this end, has not nearly every new Mac Pro (style) machine been rolled out with the marketing hype of "Most Powerful Mac EVER!"? The point here is that Halo products often exist for mindshare, not to be particularly profitable on their own.

And pulling a line from the above:

Look at the pattern: everyone screams for user upgradable systems when in reality user want to avoid Apples upgrade costs.

This is really getting into the underlying motivations of the customer, with the emphasis here being why they select 3rd Party rather than Genuine OEM Apple. The history here is functionally twofold: agility and cost. Specifically, the 3rd Parties are typically much faster to market than Apple and they're cheaper to boot.

Apple effectively has a conflict-of-interest against themselves here because the better they are in providing ongoing support (hardware upgrades) to their fleet of existing Mac Pros, the more that that customer can defer buying a new Mac (hardware replacement lifecycle) which reduces sales. However, this point also merits some consideration of the interplay between short term and long term interests .. the cliché is how the sum of replacement parts for an automobile can cost more than a new car. Again, even if it isn't particularly profitable for Apple to provide such ongoing hardware upgrades, there's also that marketing/prestige factor, as well as being a strategy to build customer loyalty. For example, Mike Valentine (of radar detector fame) sells the V-1 and part of his marketing is that any customer can return their existing one to have it upgraded to the latest version ... which results in recurring sales and a customer that's less likely to defect to the competition.

Moving on ...

On who's the right/wrong/?? customer for the Mac Pro.

First, a lot is going to depend on what Apple decides to do, which ultimately boils down to features & price. If they make the minimum buy-in too high, they're going to drive candidates to other solutions.

Second, there is a valid point in the observation of "buying something that I'm not going to use", as a value paradigm. To this end, the externalities of the cheesegrater cMP was essentially that the 'cost' was primarily a physically big & heavy box. And this can be seen with the parallels to the G4 PowerMac vs Cube: in a nutshell, the customer base wasn't willing to sacrifice expandability potential for a smaller size when it was at the ~same MSRP: the perennial question here would have been "how much cheaper would the Cube needed to have been in order to sell?".

Overall, I see the potential for this same pitfall in the iMac Pro versus future mMP: the iMac Pro at $5K offers a nice display at the cost of expandability potential, whereas the mMP deletes the display but (presumably) will do well in the expandability department ... so just what will the market (ie, customer) determine as the correct price point for it? Naturally, the more divergent that Apple chooses to make the configurations (especially the minimum configs), the harder it will be for customers to decide between the two.

Finally, let's not completely forget another aspect of Apple's history, which is of special edition "Anniversary" Macs. These have usually ended up being beautiful but ultimately underpowered & overpriced pieces of art ...

-hh
 
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