Noticed the long standing and former very active 'Waiting for Broadwell' thread has ground to a halt. Since the arrival of the meager 'update' and the 5th gen's continued absence has the expectation of a Broadwell laptop faded in favor of a future Skylake MBP instead?
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Waiting for Skylake MBP thread
- Thread starter adildacoolset
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That seems to be general consensus, most likely Intel basically told Apple that Broadwell-U wasn't coming...
Broadwell-U is already out in rMBP 13 & MBA
I think you meant "Broadwell-H wasn't coming...". It looks doubtful now, especially if Skylake-H does launch in September-November 2015 as expected.
I think you meant "Broadwell-H wasn't coming...". It looks doubtful now, especially if Skylake-H does launch in September-November 2015 as expected.
Not that Intel actually meets roadmap goals these days :/
And not that they have enough competition to motivate them to...
According to most 'official' Intel roadmaps, 'supposedly' the Skylake chips will be out Sep/Oct 2015.
I'm hoping Apples WWDC announcement in a couple weeks will finally end the speculation as to when the actual Skylake MBP will be out.
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So I'm guessing we are looking at an early 2016 Skylake Retina MacBook Pro 15 inch at this rate? If average upgrade cycle is about 214 days, we are looking at Mid December 2015 for the announcement with a January 2016 release? Seems a little odd. Wouldn't it be closer to March for an update?
Yes, there is no way that Apple would announce a product in December and then ship it in January. March is realistic.
Yes, why is everyone saying that a late Oct/early Nov release of new MBP is unlikely? I think thats when it will come out.
Because Apple has never released a Macbook update in less than 200 days from last update, so around 7 months gap is minimum. Besides the Skylake processors suitable for Macbook Pro will not be available before November and even that is assuming Intel will have no delays.
I also can't imagine Apple will just put the new processors and start the mass production, because it is a very big technology leap and all other components have to be tested, optimized (motherboard, dedicated GPU etc.).
Got it. Well I hope so as i just bought the Early 2015, could not wait.
Having said that I see we had:
Early 2013 and Late 2013
Early and Late 2011
Early and Mid 2009
so I would not be surprised if they release a Late 2015. The 13" was released in March+7 months = oct/nov
I also lean towards buying now, although waiting is tempting
I believe Apple will want to sync back the Macbook Pro 13 and 15 inch 'date-wise'. So most likely the 13-inch will have to wait for the next update until all the components for 15-inch are ready. This spring it was a bit odd when at some point the 13-inch was more advanced than 15-inch (faster SSD + new trackpad). Obviously Apple tried to wait for Broadwell but finally gave up.I also lean towards buying now, although waiting is tempting
I needed one now so waiting was not an option. I bought it with 12% discount so will not lose much if I want to sell and upgrade to Skylake. Ebay is great. I bought my first Mac in Dec last year, a Mini, for £505 new. I sold it in April for £504 to buy the MBP.
This is just wrong.
Late 2008 (October 14) and Early 2009 (Jan 6) - 84 days
Early 2009 (March 3) and Mid 2009 (June 8) - 97 days
Late 2012 (October 23) and Early 2013 (February 13) - 113 days
Most notably, these updates were related to updates where they split the updates between the sizes like they did here in 2015 with the 13" in March and the 15" in May.
If they released in October, they'd be over 130 days which isn't even in the running for the shortest release cycle. Furthermore, I think that getting hung up on the days between releases as a barometer of Apple's intention is ridiculous. Apple doesn't have a counter on their wall that says "we can't release another product for X number of days". The days between releases is directly correlated to when the technology became available. Nothing more. If anything, the Mid-2015 update of the 15" is an outlier which should be ignored anyway if you insist on getting hung up on the "number of days" concept.
The 5257U proc in 13" came out in Q1 2015. The 13" update came out in Q1 2015.
The 4278U proc in the Mid 2014 (July 29) 13" came out in Q3 2014.
The 4258U and 4750HQ in the Late 2013 13" and 15" (Oct 22) came out in Q3 2014.
Clearly, Apple will be releasing the Skylake update within a month of the Skylake procs becoming available. Both their historical release cycle and basic logic would support this. Customers are finicky and Apple can't simply rely on people buying their products because of the logo. They'll keep up with the rest of the pack in that respect, with no concern to the number of days since the last update.... if you can even call the Mid-2015 15" update an update.
Everything really depends on Intel. The speculation should be limited to (a) when will Intel be shipping the Skylake chips, and (b) which of those chips will Apple be selecting for the 13" and 15" models. The current roadmap shows the majority of mobile "H" i7's being released in September and one in Oct-Nov, while only showing two "H" i5's, one each with the September or Oct-Nov release date.
If Intel meets their goals and if Apple chooses the i5-6300HQ and i7-6820HQ for the 13" and 15" respectfully, we'll probably see an update in September or October depending on how early in the month Intel gets the goods out.
Agreed 100%. I also think their annual iPad event would be a strong candidate for an announcement time.
It might be true, but nobody knows. On the other hand - Macbooks have often been a bit behind in technology (latest cpu, gpu) compared to most current PCs. The thing is that many people want a Macbook just because it's very nicely designed, has great OS etc. How many people will not buy a Macbook just because it doesnt have the most current CPU? If you want a mac - there is not alternative. If you want a Windows PC - most people will not change their mind depending on the cpu in the macbook.
This whole thing is most important for a very low percent of people who currently own a rMBP from 2013-2014 and would like to upgrade to newest, fastest tech.
Do you think there will be a redesign (new butterfly keys, thinner, lighter, etc.) for the 13" & 15" during this annoucement?
To me, that question is far more interesting than Skylake. I happen to like the current 13" rMBP physical design quite a bit, and I've tried (for two weeks) the new keyboard and really did not do well with it. I don't see any compelling reason for Apple to put the new keyboard into the whole notebook lineup, but it could happen and it would be a big issue for me personally. YMMV, obviously.
Thinner/lighter (and possibly fewer ports) is less of a concern for me (and I say that as a user very firmly planted in the ports & wires camp rather than the wireless/cloud camp) but going down that path would send MR into fits.
Been a long time lurker and I figured I'd post. Given the communities I've been a part of a number of years I think everyone is being very unrealistic with Skylake to be honest.
Back when Intel went from Penryn to Nehalem yes you're right there was a sizable jump, similar to the rumors I've seen on places like XS from initial benchmarks. HOWEVER, the heat load distribution was terrible on these chips, absolutely terrible. Now if you were on desktop given the leaky transisters they used it was a godsent and you could blast the hell out of it and run circles on the old C2Ds of the day but keeping it cool was a hell of a problem.
The heat density of the new then "core i5/i7" processors was astronomical, the wattage amount does not directly reflect the heat density of the chip. If you look at the leaks from Skylake it is almost exactly the same. Not only is the heat density much worse when you compare Broadwell to Skylake but the 14nm process has been very difficult for Intel.
Skylake won't launch anytime soon for the following 3 reasons:
#1 The "first" round of Skylake chips like before are going to be duds that either failed TDP qualifications or ones that have defective units in them, ie "i5s". The ones that DO meet are going to be incredibly difficult to source, just like Broadwell is. My wife waited almost 8 weeks to recieve her RMB 12" because of this. If Intel cant get a die shrink on 14nm working right what makes you think Skylake will be any easier? Delays alone are going to make this chip difficult to find before 2016 for mass production because everyone wants them, Apple included.
#2 Of the ones that can be found their battery life will be either equal to or worse than the currently available parts because of the high number of defects on them relative to total population. You want a snazzy 4.4ghz turbo boosted i7? Ha good luck with that, you'll get one but it'll be a loooooong time before you see one in public. At best you'd get the low end of the frequency spectrum because of defects affecting overall TDP.
#3 Current chassis cannot support wireless charging nor does it have the cooling to handle a true-blue Skylake i7. Until we start seeing new aluminum shells with the induction pads I'm calling BS on an October launch. The moment we start seeing them you can start the 6 month countdown but no sooner.
That said I'm just gonna come out and say this up front; I bought the Mid 2015 yesterday. I'm not trying to justify my purchase I just want to make sure people are making an informed one. At best Apple will be updating to Skylake, if they do at all by mid 2016 and no earlier and It'll be on a redesigned chassis at that.
If you're going to wait, wait for Cannonlake once Intel's got yields and their heat load under control. Buying Skylake for the purposes of 99.9% of the people on here, ie battery + portability/performance is going to be a huge mistake. People are going off the false promise that new arch + new fab means it is a better chip.
If that were true companies like Toyota or anyone who does 6 sigma would be toast. The reason why these companies are so well thought of is because they only apply proven technology to a mass production. They use older, reliable designs that have been beaten to death and proven to work and work well. Most of the equipment we launch in the data center I work at is ancient, not because we don't have the funds to buy the latest and greatest but because we normally do a multi-month burn in before we put our equipment into production to prevent outages and other "bugs" not caught during the qualification process.
Just because the die is smaller doesn't mean it will be a cooler chip, that's been proven false time and time again. Also just because it's a new arch doesn't guarantee it'll be faster either.
Speed
Reliabilty
Battery Life
Pick 2
If Intel's 14nm fab was so kick ass where are the high speed Broadwell parts? There aren't any. Most likely what's happened is Intel has reallocated stock to Skylake to get even a launch worthy group of chips and later "fix" them with Cannonlake.
Back when Intel went from Penryn to Nehalem yes you're right there was a sizable jump, similar to the rumors I've seen on places like XS from initial benchmarks. HOWEVER, the heat load distribution was terrible on these chips, absolutely terrible. Now if you were on desktop given the leaky transisters they used it was a godsent and you could blast the hell out of it and run circles on the old C2Ds of the day but keeping it cool was a hell of a problem.
The heat density of the new then "core i5/i7" processors was astronomical, the wattage amount does not directly reflect the heat density of the chip. If you look at the leaks from Skylake it is almost exactly the same. Not only is the heat density much worse when you compare Broadwell to Skylake but the 14nm process has been very difficult for Intel.
Skylake won't launch anytime soon for the following 3 reasons:
#1 The "first" round of Skylake chips like before are going to be duds that either failed TDP qualifications or ones that have defective units in them, ie "i5s". The ones that DO meet are going to be incredibly difficult to source, just like Broadwell is. My wife waited almost 8 weeks to recieve her RMB 12" because of this. If Intel cant get a die shrink on 14nm working right what makes you think Skylake will be any easier? Delays alone are going to make this chip difficult to find before 2016 for mass production because everyone wants them, Apple included.
#2 Of the ones that can be found their battery life will be either equal to or worse than the currently available parts because of the high number of defects on them relative to total population. You want a snazzy 4.4ghz turbo boosted i7? Ha good luck with that, you'll get one but it'll be a loooooong time before you see one in public. At best you'd get the low end of the frequency spectrum because of defects affecting overall TDP.
#3 Current chassis cannot support wireless charging nor does it have the cooling to handle a true-blue Skylake i7. Until we start seeing new aluminum shells with the induction pads I'm calling BS on an October launch. The moment we start seeing them you can start the 6 month countdown but no sooner.
That said I'm just gonna come out and say this up front; I bought the Mid 2015 yesterday. I'm not trying to justify my purchase I just want to make sure people are making an informed one. At best Apple will be updating to Skylake, if they do at all by mid 2016 and no earlier and It'll be on a redesigned chassis at that.
If you're going to wait, wait for Cannonlake once Intel's got yields and their heat load under control. Buying Skylake for the purposes of 99.9% of the people on here, ie battery + portability/performance is going to be a huge mistake. People are going off the false promise that new arch + new fab means it is a better chip.
If that were true companies like Toyota or anyone who does 6 sigma would be toast. The reason why these companies are so well thought of is because they only apply proven technology to a mass production. They use older, reliable designs that have been beaten to death and proven to work and work well. Most of the equipment we launch in the data center I work at is ancient, not because we don't have the funds to buy the latest and greatest but because we normally do a multi-month burn in before we put our equipment into production to prevent outages and other "bugs" not caught during the qualification process.
Just because the die is smaller doesn't mean it will be a cooler chip, that's been proven false time and time again. Also just because it's a new arch doesn't guarantee it'll be faster either.
Speed
Reliabilty
Battery Life
Pick 2
If Intel's 14nm fab was so kick ass where are the high speed Broadwell parts? There aren't any. Most likely what's happened is Intel has reallocated stock to Skylake to get even a launch worthy group of chips and later "fix" them with Cannonlake.
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Not everyone buys a Mac for OSX, and suggesting that is the case on the large scale is short sighted at best. Apple doesn't think like that. What about attracting new buyers? Apple openly acknowledges that they have a minority and contracting market share. Just read the risk factors in any of their 10Q filings.
http://investor.apple.com/secfiling...-153166&CIK=320193#D892246D10Q_HTM_TX892246_8
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The story from Intel is that they've worked out the bugs in the 14nm die shrink and thus Skylake (also 14nm) won't be affected by the same problems. They've been very open about the Broadwell delays. Do you have some reason to suspect they're not being truthful?
Again, Intel is the key. If they deliver, we'll see a Skylake MBP. If not, it'll be delayed.
What makes you think Apple didn't start on shell redesign 6 months or even 24 months ago? You think they're waiting for the new chips to come out before they start on that? You do know that Intel had agreements with a number of major manufacturers to use wireless charging in Skylake laptops like 2-3 years ago, right?
[qupte]
If you're going to wait, wait for Cannonlake once Intel's got yields and their heat load under control. Buying Skylake for the purposes of 99.9% of the people on here, ie battery + portability/performance is going to be a huge mistake. People are going off the false promise that new arch + new fab means it is a better chip.[/quote]
So you start off suggesting skipping Skylake because of issues with the die shrink from Broadwell and end with suggesting people wait for the next die shrink to 10nm? How does that logic work? If anything, it's an argument for buying the 'tock', not the 'tick'.
Intel was pretty open about the problems they had with the 14nm die shrink and they're putting their efforts into the Skylake deadline rather than fulling building out Broadwell. That's why there aren't high end Broadwell chips out. They're basically said they're skipping Broadwell on the higher end to keep the Skylake timeline up.
My reasoning for waiting on Cannonlake is because it is a known architecture and normally cost and power reduction come on the die shrink. This time has been a little different but did happen once before going to 45nm down from 65nm. Example (sorry first I could find on google)
http://www.fudzilla.com/news/processors/12336-intel-has-more-45nm-problems-than-admitted
Broadwell should have been the chip to buy and frankly I would take Broadwell over Skylake. Most of the truly new and innovative changes for Skylake are reserved for the Xeons like the low power DDR4 and the update to SSE and AVX
http://www.fudzilla.com/news/processors/37844-intel-leaks-purley-details
All of this should make it to Cannonlake plus most likely PCI-E 4.0. None of this is on Skylake. Each time there's a new die shrink its been harder and harder to get decent yields this time is no different.
Intel hasn't proven they've got a grip on the current node much less a new arch on it. I just don't think it's wise for Skylake to be put on this kind of pedestal. Given what I've seen and what I've heard I think people are probably going to be disappointed and wish they bought something earlier.
If the new MacBooks with Skylake come this year and it's only 5% better and you lose an hour of battery life what then?
Is 5% worth missing out on the current back to school sales only to wait unti August of the following year to get a discount? Hell I just walked out of bestbuy and got them to match the student discount of $2299 plus an additional 10% movers coupon AND the $50 off coupon. Not to mention plus $5 in Ibotta plus a good $60 in reward points plus my 2% cash back.
If you buy in either at the iPad launch this year or in Feb of next odds are you're gonna pay the full $2500 and for what?
http://www.fudzilla.com/news/processors/12336-intel-has-more-45nm-problems-than-admitted
Broadwell should have been the chip to buy and frankly I would take Broadwell over Skylake. Most of the truly new and innovative changes for Skylake are reserved for the Xeons like the low power DDR4 and the update to SSE and AVX
http://www.fudzilla.com/news/processors/37844-intel-leaks-purley-details
All of this should make it to Cannonlake plus most likely PCI-E 4.0. None of this is on Skylake. Each time there's a new die shrink its been harder and harder to get decent yields this time is no different.
Intel hasn't proven they've got a grip on the current node much less a new arch on it. I just don't think it's wise for Skylake to be put on this kind of pedestal. Given what I've seen and what I've heard I think people are probably going to be disappointed and wish they bought something earlier.
If the new MacBooks with Skylake come this year and it's only 5% better and you lose an hour of battery life what then?
Is 5% worth missing out on the current back to school sales only to wait unti August of the following year to get a discount? Hell I just walked out of bestbuy and got them to match the student discount of $2299 plus an additional 10% movers coupon AND the $50 off coupon. Not to mention plus $5 in Ibotta plus a good $60 in reward points plus my 2% cash back.
If you buy in either at the iPad launch this year or in Feb of next odds are you're gonna pay the full $2500 and for what?
There is no chance of that
BTW the main improvement Intel taughts for Skylake is reduced platform power. Reducing the power consumption of everything around the plain CPU cores. That should be show through most in real battery life (not advertised) for the quad cores which still aren't true SoCs as of Haswell.
Performance improvements should be minor at best.
Essentially Skylake is the improved bug reduced version of Broadwell. 2nd Gen 14nm.
You go on about first gen problems but that is Broadwell. Skylake should be like Haswell. And Intel was so delayed with the 14nm launch that some Broadwells got so delayed that they just put the already finished skylake into the production line. That is why it is very possible that they deliver them by the end of the year. They replace what would have been Broadwell quad cores in the production line.
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