Waiting for Skylake MBP thread

[ixxx69]

Why do the defenders of discrete GPUs seem like devout defenders of a religious doctrine?

While I wouldn't put it that way, some of us need high-performance laptops for things like 3D modeling/CAD/video editing. If Intel can offer the same GPU performance in their integrated GPU as what would otherwise be a discrete GPU, then I'm all for it. But they can't yet, and we're still at the very least several years away.

I get that most of the computer market doesn't need such things, but there seems to be a lot of clamoring to get to the lowest common denominator as fast as possible. Here's a warning to all you want-to-be Apple executives out there: even small niches can have a large impact. Sometimes you think you're only abandoning a small market, but that market can be very influential on the larger market. We hear a lot about "halo" products, but there are also "halo" markets. While there's no way to prove it, anecdotally, I'm quite sure Apple wouldn't be nearly as successful as it is if the the computer "hardware geeks" hadn't gotten on board and started recommending Apple products to all their friends and family (which largely started with the switch to Intel CPUs btw). My friends and family don't buy a computer without my input. As long as Apple has a place for me (fastest CPUs, high-end GPUs, Boot Camp), I'll keep recommending Apple - I've made about a dozen Apple computer "sales" over the last few years. If I sour on Apple, those friends and family might follow. Computer history is littered with former industry giants that got too caught up in "markets" and forgot what it was all about in the first place.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[apolloa]

While I wouldn't put it that way, some of us need high-performance laptops for things like 3D modeling/CAD/video editing. If Intel can offer the same GPU performance in their integrated GPU as what would otherwise be a discrete GPU, then I'm all for it. But they can't yet, and we're still at the very least several years away.

I get that most of the computer market doesn't need such things, but there seems to be a lot of clamoring to get to the lowest common denominator as fast as possible. Here's a warning to all you want-to-be Apple executives out there: even small niches can have a large impact. Sometimes you think you're only abandoning a small market, but that market can be very influential on the larger market. We hear a lot about "halo" products, but there are also "halo" markets. While there's no way to prove it, anecdotally, I'm quite sure Apple wouldn't be nearly as successful as it is if the the computer "hardware geeks" hadn't gotten on board and started recommending Apple products to all their friends and family (which largely started with the switch to Intel CPUs btw). My friends and family don't buy a computer without my input. As long as Apple has a place for me (fastest CPUs, high-end GPUs, Boot Camp), I'll keep recommending Apple - I've made about a dozen Apple computer "sales" over the last few years. If I sour on Apple, those friends and family might follow. Computer history is littered with former industry giants that got too caught up in "markets" and forgot what it was all about in the first place.

Just my 2 cents.

Absolutely, as it stands now with integrated GPU's, I wouldn't touch a MacBook Pro with only that option! It's like the people that WANT an ARM based Mac, well kiss goodbye to ever running Windows on it then... One of the main reasons the Mac has got some half decent support now is because it runs Intel CPU's.

 

[catan]

Well, if Apple drops dGPUs from their Macbooks by the next update, the resale value of the current 750m rMBPs will be very good down the road

 

[ABC5S]

Well, if Apple drops dGPUs from their Macbooks by the next update, the resale value of the current 750m rMBPs will be very good down the road

Except many are experiencing issues with the 750m if you do a search of it. I wouldn't touch that GPU. Newer integrated video are getting better and the next version will also be better. I'm waiting for Skylake myself, and that should even be better with a newer integrated video...

 

[Hieveryone]

I wouldn't wait unless release is imminent. These computers are too good to even miss out a day of use. Pure joy is all I have to say.

 

[mcarling]

I'm not confused, discrete GPUs are the ones that have their own VRAM and are separate chips on the motherboard, an integrated GPU shares it's VRAM and is integrated into other chips like the CPU or the chipset.

Discrete GPUs are separate chips that may have their own VRAM or may share the DRAM with the CPU. Integrated GPUs are on the same die (or at least on the same chip) as the CPU and typically share the DRAM but could have dedicated VRAM. The Nvidia chips you mentioned were discrete GPUs which shared DRAM rather than having dedicated VRAM.

 

[Pentad]

Absolutely, as it stands now with integrated GPU's, I wouldn't touch a MacBook Pro with only that option! It's like the people that WANT an ARM based Mac, well kiss goodbye to ever running Windows on it then... One of the main reasons the Mac has got some half decent support now is because it runs Intel CPU's.

I could not agree more!

 

[dusk007]

Discrete GPUs are separate chips that may have their own VRAM or may share the DRAM with the CPU. Integrated GPUs are on the same die (or at least on the same chip) as the CPU and typically share the DRAM but could have dedicated VRAM. The Nvidia chips you mentioned were discrete GPUs which shared DRAM rather than having dedicated VRAM.

That is not the difference 99% of tech people make. The main difference is whether GPUs have their own VRAM. Therefore usually there are dedicated GPUs (dedicated VRAM) and integrated.
That the Nvidia 9400M and 320M are not integrated within the CPU package makes no difference. They were in the Northbridge where back then the memory controller was situated. So it was wherever the memory access was and that is the same with other integrated GPUs like todays Intel Iris or AMDs APUs.

 

[mcarling]

That is not the difference 99% of tech people make. The main difference is whether GPUs have their own VRAM. Therefore usually there are dedicated GPUs (dedicated VRAM) and integrated.
That the Nvidia 9400M and 320M are not integrated within the CPU package makes no difference. They were in the Northbridge where back then the memory controller was situated. So it was wherever the memory access was and that is the same with other integrated GPUs like todays Intel Iris or AMDs APUs.

Many people are confusing dedicated VRAM with discrete GPUs. VRAM is either dedicated or shared (DRAM). GPUs are either discrete or integrated. Whether the GPU is integrated with CPU makes a big difference to Apple and Intel. For Apple, it is the vector of progress. For Intel, it is a strategic imperative. The main consequences are cost and reliability, which should be of interest to most consumers also.

Look at the history of the discrete FPU market. It is being repeated with the GPU.

 

[Jayayess1190]

Dell skips Broadwell with some laptops, plans for Skylake | PCWorld

Wire-free computing could be around the corner, with Dell planning to release laptops based on Intel’s Skylake chips in the second half of the year.

Intel believes that Skylake, the latest in its Core series, is the most significant processor it has released in the last decade. It’s based on a new circuit design and promises significant increases in performance, battery life and power efficiency.

Dell appears to agree that Skylake has compelling features, and will release new and upgraded laptops with the chip in the second half of the year, said Frank Azor, Dell’s general manager for XPS and Alienware products.

So, Skylake laptops will definitely be out later this year.

 

[mcarling]

So, Skylake laptops will definitely be out later this year.

I expect 15W Skylake parts to ship in quantity in time for the peak holiday shoplifting season, so we might see a Skylake MacBook Air in perhaps October. I'm much less confident that higher TDP CPUs suitable for the MacBook Pro will ship in quantity this year.

 

[puma1552]

so presumably with skylake we will be able to drive a 4k/5k external apple thunderbolt display which presumably apple will be producing by then?

 

[mcarling]

so presumably with skylake we will be able to drive a 4k/5k external apple thunderbolt display which presumably apple will be producing by then?

The current MacBook Pro can drive a 4K external display. Possibly with Broadwell and certainly with Skylake, a future MacBook Pro will be able to drive a 5K external display over Thunderbolt 3 and Displayport 1.3. It is not clear whether or not Apple will remain in the external display business.

 

[puma1552]

The current MacBook Pro can drive a 4K external display. Possibly with Broadwell and certainly with Skylake, a future MacBook Pro will be able to drive a 5K external display over Thunderbolt 3 and Displayport 1.3. It is not clear whether or not Apple will remain in the external display business.

cool...really hoping Apple makes a 27" external 5K in a nice form factor like the imac. still using my 2008 24" ACD. dont really want a new laptop til apple is selling a nice 5k external to go with

 

[Dreamer2go]

Still rocking my mid 2012 Retina Macbook Pro...
Never really trusted "integrated" graphics anyways

 

[t0mat0]

http://seekingalpha.com/article/282...h-on-q4-2014-results-earnings-call-transcript

Ross Seymore - Deutsche Bank
And I guess as my follow-on in somewhat similar. We talked a little bit about this at CES, to see want to get your view. Broadwell is launching in the fourth quarter and then starting to ramp now. Skylake, it sounds like you want to continue to have that be on time and I guess the early part of the second half of this year. To the extent of the Broadwell, duration is shorter than normal. What sort of business implications, whether it’d be on the revenue, the COGS, etcetera line should we think of to hit the financials throughout the year?

Brian Krzanich - Chief Executive Officer
Well, this is Brian. Let me first kind of answer how we are looking at this and we are not going to slow Skylake down. We said it will be a second half of this year. I don’t want to slow it down because it brings a lot of innovation, a lot of new capability to this market. We think we’ve managed between the SKUs of what SKUs we are bringing out on Broadwell to really refresh the 2-in-1 devices, the Chrome books. We wanted to bring Core M out which I think in the first part of this year with changed New Year, the back-to-school season having the super-thin and light devices is going to be critical.

So missing that by doing something else with Broadwell would have been in the stake [sic]. And I think getting that volume is a good thing. We think we managed the transition on the number of SKUs as Broadwell will have and how we'll transition the market to Skylake now moving forward from a margin or COGS standpoint. But remember they are on the same technology, the same piece of silicon, it’s the same factory. All we do is change the piece of glass in the scanner to get a different product. So there is not a change or revamp of our factories that needs to occur for this.

Stacy Smith - Chief Financial Officer
Yeah. That last point is important both for 14-nanometer products for us. So it doesn’t change our factory profile. And just generally the faster we bring out new features and cool stuff to the market, the better off we are. So we are not planning to slow down Skylake if that was at the heart of your question.

If they're going to be making both Skylake and Broadwell simultaneously from the same plants - doesn't it make sense for them to prioritise getting Skylake higher end CPU's out? They'll make better margin from higher end Skylake (they have a finite capacity for making Broadwell/Skylake (and a mothballed fab, go Intel.) I'd imagine Apple would want to get 1st pick of the top bins for Broadwell and Skylake MBPs?

I guess we see - if Broadwell Macbook Air, then Broadwell MacBook Pro bump come out asap, it might be more hopeful for 8-10 month down the line a MBP Skylake (with maybe a refresh of the design?)

They did seem to generally go along with the "Broadwell is going to be shorter in length being around" concept through the Q & A.

 

[bluush]

Waiting for Skylake is going to be painful as I'd love to grab a notebook now, but the potential with Skylake is going to be worth it.

 

[exizeo]

Skylake discussion

Do you think Apple will release Skylake MBPs as soon as suitable processors are out there, or wait for a bit instead? DDR4, USB-C, and much more are already coming, but will Apple jump on the train immediately or take a while?

Intel already said they won't delay Skylake as a result of the Broadwell delays.

Also, do you think Apple will make aesthetic changes to the new model? The rMBP was introduced in June 2012...so it's already been ~3 years, which is about the Unibody->rMBP.

 

[koyoot]

While I wouldn't put it that way, some of us need high-performance laptops for things like 3D modeling/CAD/video editing. If Intel can offer the same GPU performance in their integrated GPU as what would otherwise be a discrete GPU, then I'm all for it. But they can't yet, and we're still at the very least several years away.

Mantle in future will be a something like CUDA, DirectX12, OpenCL, OpenGl in one simple platform.

Every single developer that is known here got support for Mantle. Everyone but Nvidia. Even Intel got it, and will be working on optimizing their GPUs for it.

Guess why? AMD makes a gigantic platform that unifies every single API that helps in development/gaming/mathematics/whatever it is, you have to do on GPU.

Mantle is gigantic threat for CUDA. So far its only low level API, that helps reduce the overhead of CPU. In future it will be single solution for everything. Thats why Nvidia is not investing in it - cause they have CUDA, and think it will last for... years.

Truth be told, in the end You will need only Integrated GPUs from Intel, or highest end GPUs from AMD. There will be nothing in between. Cause it will not give benefit to put it in lets say, a Macbook Pro.

And yes, 3D modelling, Autocad, whatever it is you will have will benefit from that platform, way more, than it was ever before. Apple already uses it in their software - iOS. Time for OSX to get Mantle/Metal.

Besides, if you will get same power with Integrated GPU than with dGPU and use less power, what will you choose?

My choice is Intel HD7200, cause if everything will go exactly like Intel wants - it will be hell of a GPU.

 

[bluush]

Do you think Apple will release Skylake MBPs as soon as suitable processors are out there, or wait for a bit instead? DDR4, USB-C, and much more are already coming, but will Apple jump on the train immediately or take a while?

Intel already said they won't delay Skylake as a result of the Broadwell delays.

Also, do you think Apple will make aesthetic changes to the new model? The rMBP was introduced in June 2012...so it's already been ~3 years, which is about the Unibody->rMBP.

I don't think Skylake rmbp will pop up immediately after the chip release.. probably a few month wait but that's pure speculation. I doubt we will see Broadwell rmbp.. probably will go straight to Skylake.

I do think there will be a significant visual aesthetic change to the chassis. A thinner notebook borrowing some design elements from the new retina MBA, smaller bezels (or even edge-to-edge) to accommodate 14" and 16" replacements for 13" and 15" so that the lineup is 12" retina mba, 14" and 16" rmbp.

 

[BiscottiGelato]

What do you guys think about getting a refurb mid 2014 13" rMBP for now to tie over until Skylake comes out? I'm hoping for finger print reader and dual 5k support from Skylake. Is that a massive waste of money over depreciation? I'm out of RAM and SSD space everyday on my MBA to the point it's not worth the time to clean anymore (almost every piece of movable data is on my 3TB Synology NAS already...)

 

[seanoo]

Where does everybody see SSDs values going with the upcoming Broadwell/Skylake refreshes? Has there been enough of a component cost decrease that Apple will move from 128/256/512 to 256/512/1TB, for example? Will market forces/competition/consumer expectations impel them?

Would be great to get a 'free' upgrade—I'm in no huge rush to replace my 2009 MBP17, and internal space is a concern. Never really understood how 128 could cut it for anyone.

 

[thundersteele]

What do you guys think about getting a refurb mid 2014 13" rMBP for now to tie over until Skylake comes out? I'm hoping for finger print reader and dual 5k support from Skylake. Is that a massive waste of money over depreciation? I'm out of RAM and SSD space everyday on my MBA to the point it's not worth the time to clean anymore (almost every piece of movable data is on my 3TB Synology NAS already...)

Seems like a good idea to me!

 

[t0mat0]

Next gen chipsets with more PCIe lanes:
http://www.maximumpc.com/intel_skylake_chipsets_may_receive_significant_pcie_upgrade_2015

Is it likely a Skylake MBP will have a decent increase in lanes, enough for USB3(.1) TB3 etc?

 

[exizeo]

Next gen chipsets with more PCIe lanes:
http://www.maximumpc.com/intel_skylake_chipsets_may_receive_significant_pcie_upgrade_2015

Is it likely a Skylake MBP will have a decent increase in lanes, enough for USB3(.1) TB3 etc?

While that may be true, I doubt we'll get any more expansion slots, and we might even lose a few.