Waiting for the 2018 MBP

[Falhófnir]

I wish for a MBP 17 inch..

Well, if they decide they need to offer a laptop formfactor equivalent of the iMac pro/ Mac Pro they could quite possibly come to the conclusion that a larger machine is the only way they can do it - perhaps they would go for a 16.x” rather than 17.3” but either way it’s more screen space than anything portable currently offers.

That’s why I said I’m guessing. It stands to reason if they want to crank up the CPU within 15W they need to limit something else.

I’m wondering if Apple might use this to further differentiate the ntb and tb models - they could go fanless 15W (like surface pro/ book) in the ntb and 28W actively cooled tb. Maybe they could even rebrand the ntb to just a 13” MacBook to even out the product lines a bit.

How sell 3 year old machine for $1999

Currently it’s a little over 2.5 years old, but yeah definitely should have had a price cut by this point.

 

[argentum47]

Currently it’s a little over 2.5 years old, but yeah definitely should have had a price cut by this point.

2015 15" was hardly a proper update and their CPUs were actually exactly the same models as the 2014 15" CPUs (4770HQ, etc.), so it's more like 3.5 years
The price also being exactly the same as back then is pretty much unethical at this point.

 

[Ener Ji]

I agree. However with some additional research I see all of the 8th gen U chips use the UHD620. Which is inferior to the 650. That would be a large step backwards for graphics. Surely that can't be right.. Someone please tell me they have a 8th gen 15w-28w U chip with 650 iGPU.

The full lineup of 8th generation processors has not been announced yet. Some have been announced and some others have leaked, but it's likely that there are still some additional CPUs yet to be announced/leaked, including chips of the type you mentioned.

Hopefully they arrive soon enough for Apple to refresh the Macbook Pro line in the first half of the year.

 

[haydn!]

2015 15" was hardly a proper update and their CPUs were actually exactly the same models as the 2014 15" CPUs (4770HQ, etc.), so it's more like 3.5 years
The price also being exactly the same as back then is pretty much unethical at this point.

Try living in the UK, where it’s £250 more expensive today than it was in 2015!

 

[cyberone]

Honestly I don't care about that - I'd gladly give up battery life for CPU power at this point. I've never needed 12 hrs battery life in any case.

I'd gladly buy a MBP with limited battery power, hardly ever need it.

 

[fokmik]

People who doesn’t need battery life i think they are waiting for a mac mini update

 

[cyberone]

People who doesn’t need battery life i think they are waiting for a mac mini update

Not at all, I need a portable machine with screen and keyboard.

 

[helloapple]

I am waiting for the MBP 13 2018. Guess when will apple upgrade it, March or WWDC in June.

 

[richinaus]

People who doesn’t need battery life i think they are waiting for a mac mini update

A very incisive and considered remark indeed.

I think I will wait for the [never coming] Mac mini and when it eventually arrives have a separate monitor at home and a screen in my office and ferry it to and fro, every day. Sounds awesome.

No problems when I travel. Just buy a new monitor in the place I am staying or take it on hand luggage if they will let me. Its all good, who needs a laptop.......

 

[Falhófnir]

2015 15" was hardly a proper update and their CPUs were actually exactly the same models as the 2014 15" CPUs (4770HQ, etc.), so it's more like 3.5 years
The price also being exactly the same as back then is pretty much unethical at this point.

I just find it baffling that they didn’t bump it to broadwell either in January 2016 (8 months after may 2015, 9 months before October 2016) or even alongside the 2016 models (like they did for the 2012 unibody design) if they were going to continue selling it this long. The iris pro 6200 was a really decent upgrade over the 5200, and I’d imagine going to 14nm would have probably meant an extra hour of light usage battery life. I can only assume Apple realised that would have meant nobody would have bought the half-baked new models

 

[leman]

Might be relevant:

https://www.notebookcheck.net/No-Coffee-Lake-H-means-no-new-gaming-laptop-designs.277738.0.html
[doublepost=1516622635][/doublepost]

I just find it baffling that they didn’t bump it to broadwell either in January 2016 (8 months after may 2015, 9 months before October 2016) or even alongside the 2016 models (like they did for the 2012 unibody design) if they were going to continue selling it this long. The iris pro 6200 was a really decent upgrade over the 5200, and I’d imagine going to 14nm would have probably meant an extra hour of light usage battery life. I can only assume Apple realised that would have meant nobody would have bought the half-baked new models

Its just speculation, but I very much suspect that Broadwells and Skylakes with Iris Pro could never reach the production volumes to satisfy Apple's demands. Thats the only rational explanation I can muster. In the end Intel abandoned Iris Pro alltogher and Apple had to implement plan "B" — switching back to the all-dGPU design.

 

[Falhófnir]

Might be relevant:

https://www.notebookcheck.net/No-Coffee-Lake-H-means-no-new-gaming-laptop-designs.277738.0.html
[doublepost=1516622635][/doublepost]

Its just speculation, but I very much suspect that Broadwells and Skylakes with Iris Pro could never reach the production volumes to satisfy Apple's demands. Thats the only rational explanation I can muster. In the end Intel abandoned Iris Pro alltogher and Apple had to implement plan "B" — switching back to the all-dGPU design.

I don’t think iris pro was ever part of the plan for skylake as Apple was the only real customer and it was an expensive programme for Intel which never quite delivered the sort of competitive performance they wanted it to. Broadwell parts were literally available for a month or two, but I’m sure if Apple had switched to those chips, Intel would have obliged them? Apple have backed themselves into a bit of a pricing corner eliminating the iGPU option, I don’t see them getting the dGPU models down to $1,999 and the Intel-AMD combi-chips look to be higher cost than would suit such a machine. The only option I see when the 2015 15” is finally untenable is to go with a 28W part with iris plus, like a scaled up TB 13”...

 

[zedsdead]

I am only waiting because of the battery life situation. I tested two separate models of the 2016 13" Touch Bar and the battery life was worse than my 2013 rMBP. Hopefully they sorted out the battery space inside the machine....even an extra hour or so would be a huge help...because it is a far cry from the stated battery life under most usage.

The quad-core chipsets and upgraded graphics will be a welcome, but if they don't improve the battery life then I am waiting another year.

 

[leman]

I don’t think iris pro was ever part of the plan for skylake as Apple was the only real customer and it was an expensive programme for Intel which never quite delivered the sort of competitive performance they wanted it to.

It was! i7-6x70HQ CPUs, announced Q1 2016. I do not think they ever really shipped though.

Apple have backed themselves into a bit of a pricing corner eliminating the iGPU option, I don’t see them getting the dGPU models down to $1,999 and the Intel-AMD combi-chips look to be higher cost than would suit such a machine. The only option I see when the 2015 15” is finally untenable is to go with a 28W part with iris plus, like a scaled up TB 13”...

Yep, Apple is in a really awkward position now. I am curious to see how Cook & friends will solve this. There is really no way out without (badly) stepping on some toes: they could update the machines soon with components available now (and downgrade the GPU), they could wait until components will be available (which might be months and months), or they could do something novel and fresh (like using Kaby Lake G in the 13"), which would mean a hit to the margins.

 

[Poki]

Yep, Apple is in a really awkward position now. I am curious to see how Cook & friends will solve this. There is really no way out without (badly) stepping on some toes: they could update the machines soon with components available now (and downgrade the GPU), they could wait until components will be available (which might be months and months), or they could do something novel and fresh (like using Kaby Lake G in the 13"), which would mean a hit to the margins.

Kaby Lake G is not a solution. The performance is too poor to be used in the 15" MacBook Pro, and the TDP is far too high to use it in the 13" MacBook Pro. Also, Apple probably will want to use (and up-sell, of course) the new i9 H-series CPU that leaked recently (with a cTDP starting at 45W, that's perfect for the MBP).

So, for the 15", all the parts are nearly here. Intel is expected to ship H-series parts in Q2, which might point towards an April MBP update.

For the 13", I expect Intel to announce 28W parts with GT3e iGPUs around the same time they announce the H-series CPUs. If they don't, Apple could still use AMD's Vega 12 parts which are sold separately according to AMD, which combined with a 15W 8th gen Intel CPU would give a nice performance boost that would fit perfectly within the 28W TDP.

As for the low-end MacBook Pro, I expect Apple to just use a lower end AMD GPU for that one. Won't break the bank and avoids having to deal with Intel more than necessary.

 

[xSeaside]

I’m wondering if Apple might use this to further differentiate the ntb and tb models - they could go fanless 15W (like surface pro/ book) in the ntb and 28W actively cooled tb. Maybe they could even rebrand the ntb to just a 13” MacBook to even out the product lines a bit.

This makes sense from a product segmentation standpoint. However, if the touchbar remains a niche feature for higher end MBPs, it won't make much sense to develop applications for it.

 

[Falhófnir]

It was! i7-6x70HQ CPUs, announced Q1 2016. I do not think they ever really shipped though.



Yep, Apple is in a really awkward position now. I am curious to see how Cook & friends will solve this. There is really no way out without (badly) stepping on some toes: they could update the machines soon with components available now (and downgrade the GPU), they could wait until components will be available (which might be months and months), or they could do something novel and fresh (like using Kaby Lake G in the 13"), which would mean a hit to the margins.

Ok, I thought they went dGPU only because Intel had knocked iris pro on the head for H series chips and just consolidated back to iris plus on U series - I didn’t realise it was a volume issue (+ presumably pricing?)

I’d be happy for an effectively 13” touchbar Pro in the shell of a 15”, just not at the sort of price they’d be charging for it - maybe if they dropped the price of the 13” pro to $1,699 and started the 15” at $1,799 that’d be a stomachable price but $1,999 seems too much for that sort of machine.

This makes sense from a product segmentation standpoint. However, if the touchbar remains a niche feature for higher end MBPs, it won't make much sense to develop applications for it.

If they want to spread the touchbar to the Remaining models, they will have to rebrand the ntb to just macbook 13” or something as they can’t continue calling it a non touchbar Pro

 

[fokmik]

A very incisive and considered remark indeed.

I think I will wait for the [never coming] Mac mini and when it eventually arrives have a separate monitor at home and a screen in my office and ferry it to and fro, every day. Sounds awesome.

No problems when I travel. Just buy a new monitor in the place I am staying or take it on hand luggage if they will let me. Its all good, who needs a laptop.......

people who doesnt need battery life, they dock the macbooks...so they already have a monitor at their place
[doublepost=1516643870][/doublepost]

Not at all, I need a portable machine with screen and keyboard.

you are not one of those people who dont care about battery life, as i and you are.. you are not the target
people who doesnt need battery life, they dock the macbooks...so they already have a monitor,keyboard at their place
[doublepost=1516644042][/doublepost]

Kaby Lake G is not a solution. The performance is too poor to be used in the 15" MacBook Pro, and the TDP is far too high to use it in the 13" MacBook Pro. Also, Apple probably will want to use (and up-sell, of course) the new i9 H-series CPU that leaked recently (with a cTDP starting at 45W, that's perfect for the MBP).


For the 13", I expect Intel to announce 28W parts with GT3e iGPUs around the same time they announce the H-series CPUs. If they don't, Apple could still use AMD's Vega 12 parts which are sold separately according to AMD, which combined with a 15W 8th gen Intel CPU would give a nice performance boost that would fit perfectly within the 28W TDP.

As for the low-end MacBook Pro, I expect Apple to just use a lower end AMD GPU for that one. Won't break the bank and avoids having to deal with Intel more than necessary.

i dont think the low-end 13" MBP will get any of amd gpu

 

[Poki]

i dont think the low-end 13" MBP will get any of amd gpu

I was talking about the low end 15" MacBook Pro in that last paragraph, sorry for not being clearer. I still think an AMD Vega 12 would be a possibility in the Touch Bar 13" MacBook Pro, depending on whether AMD actually can ship that chip.

 

[fokmik]

I was talking about the low end 15" MacBook Pro in that last paragraph, sorry for not being clearer. I still think an AMD Vega 12 would be a possibility in the Touch Bar 13" MacBook Pro, depending on whether AMD actually can ship that chip.

we know what specs amd vega 12 have or might have? or any rumours?

 

[richinaus]

people who doesnt need battery life, they dock the macbooks...so they already have a monitor at their place
[doublepost=1516643870][/doublepost]
you are not one of those people who dont care about battery life, as i and you are.. you are not the target
people who doesnt need battery life, they dock the macbooks...so they already have a monitor,keyboard at their place
[doublepost=1516644042][/doublepost]
i dont think the low-end 13" MBP will get any of amd gpu

Wrong. I dock a laptop at a 'work desk' which I may use 3 days a week all other times I use the in built screen everywhere else.
Have you ever heard of working in different locations? Activity based working? Sort of modern methods based on the fact that you have a laptop.
However these are short bursts and dont require all day battery but 4-5 hours is more than fine.

There is no 'target market' - the MacBook Pro are compromised machines for many people which is why few on here are ever happy, as either want amazing battery life like you, or lots of power like me, but it delivers neither.

 

[leman]

There is no 'target market' - the MacBook Pro are compromised machines for many people which is why few on here are ever happy, as either want amazing battery life like you, or lots of power like me, but it delivers neither.

The MacBook Pro, just as a powerbook before it, has a very clear design goal: to be the most powerful mobile computer within particular given (rather high) portability constrains. Put differently, its a jack of all trades portable (focus on portable). As such, the compromises haven't changed since last twenty years...

One can argue of course whether this goal is still (or ever has been) reasonable, or whether Apple is missing a significant chunk of the target market (and that would certainly be a very interesting conversation!). But the thing is, the MBP today is exactly what it was 5 or 10 years ago — the thinnest and lightest laptop in its performance category, while also having the best battery of its performance category.

And finally, I think that yes, it definitely achieves its goals (speaking specifically about the 15" model here). It comes with fastest shipping CPUs right now in the mobile market (I don't really know how it is supposed to deliver more power at this point) and its battery life is better than any comparable computer, while being thinner and lighter. Unless you speak about GPU power of course, then yes, there are certainly better choices.

 

[fokmik]

The MacBook Pro, just as a powerbook before it, has a very clear design goal: to be the most powerful mobile computer within particular given (rather high) portability constrains. Put differently, its a jack of all trades portable (focus on portable). As such, the compromises haven't changed since last twenty years...

One can argue of course whether this goal is still (or ever has been) reasonable, or whether Apple is missing a significant chunk of the target market (and that would certainly be a very interesting conversation!). But the thing is, the MBP today is exactly what it was 5 or 10 years ago — the thinnest and lightest laptop in its performance category, while also having the best battery of its performance category.

And finally, I think that yes, it definitely achieves its goals (speaking specifically about the 15" model here). It comes with fastest shipping CPUs right now in the mobile market (I don't really know how it is supposed to deliver more power at this point) and its battery life is better than any comparable computer, while being thinner and lighter. Unless you speak about GPU power of course, then yes, there are certainly better choices.

you think that the upcoming 15" MBP will have a new amd gpu or it will keep the current amd 560?
i dont find any new vega mobile gpu

 

[richinaus]

The MacBook Pro, just as a powerbook before it, has a very clear design goal: to be the most powerful mobile computer within particular given (rather high) portability constrains. Put differently, its a jack of all trades portable (focus on portable). As such, the compromises haven't changed since last twenty years...

One can argue of course whether this goal is still (or ever has been) reasonable, or whether Apple is missing a significant chunk of the target market (and that would certainly be a very interesting conversation!). But the thing is, the MBP today is exactly what it was 5 or 10 years ago — the thinnest and lightest laptop in its performance category, while also having the best battery of its performance category.

And finally, I think that yes, it definitely achieves its goals (speaking specifically about the 15" model here). It comes with fastest shipping CPUs right now in the mobile market (I don't really know how it is supposed to deliver more power at this point) and its battery life is better than any comparable computer, while being thinner and lighter. Unless you speak about GPU power of course, then yes, there are certainly better choices.

I agree with all you say - you can get get faster cpu / better battery / better GPU but something is going to have to give in order to deliver Apples goals. Overall though I think the mbp is a great machine which is why I keep buying them, however people who expect something amazing in one category will always be disappointed. I have certainly realised to adjust my expectations accordingly.
[doublepost=1516656530][/doublepost]

you think that the upcoming 15" MBP will have a new amd gpu or it will keep the current amd 560?
i dont find any new vega mobile gpu

There are new Vega M GPU which should be suitable. I hear it is about the same as a 1060.

 

[fokmik]

There are new Vega M GPU which should be suitable. I hear it is about the same as a 1060.

Where i can find the spec for those vega m gpu that can fit into the 15”
The same as a 1060 should be fine. Since the current 560 is worse than even an 1050 Ti