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Walmart and Best Buy Opt Out of 'Apple Pay' as Apple Leverages Required Point-of-Sale Upgrades

gotluck said:
of course apple is making it mainstream

I just feel like you are downplaying the significance that vendors really have no choice other than to oblige with upgrading to emv terminals, most of which support nfc. Forget apple and google, vendors would have to upgrade even if paywave with a credit card was the only way to use nfc.

Apple is mighty, Im not questioning that - I don't know if they are mighty enough to get all of corporate retail to upgrade their POS units though
Click to expand...

I'm not downplaying it, I feel you're downplaying apples role lol. Above someone said the emv deadline is Oct 2015. So yes, apple may have timed it right, but their influence is obvious.

You see, for years people have been saying apples contributions are no big deal because the tech would have logically progressed there.

With nfc, countless people have said only apple can make it popular. I think we're seeing that right now. Credit should be given where due.

Numbers were posted by kdarling which showed the snail pace that nfc payment usage is growing. It was, and I use was intentionally, projected to get big by 2017. You will see it get big far before that now. That's because apple adopted the tech.
 
Pinching Square

I wonder most of all what Square's reaction to the EMV deadline is going to be. I deal with a bunch of sole proprieterships and small businesses every week that use square and the mag stripe reader.

Can the NFC chip be used to emulate an NFC station? That is, is NFC a peer-to-peer hardware system like Firewire or a master/slave system like USB?

Even if the NFC chip in the iPhone could be used to be an NFC station, would Apple allow it for apps like Square?

If not, then is Square going to make a DFI lightning attached NFC terminal? Perhaps in the form of an iPad Mini or iPod Touch wrapper or something?
 
kilcher said:
Yeah, but from what I understand this won't stop any of that. If someone has your card # or a fake card they can still use it as they could before. All the fingerprint sensor does is stop them from using your PHONE as a credit card and really who would do that?

Ex. I had three charges to my debit card last week, 2 in Mexico and 1 in Texas (I'm in Illinois). Even if I had my debit card linked to Apple Pay that would not have stopped that person from obtaining and using my information (unless they somehow got the information directly from my card and not elsewhere, which is possible).

The only way I could see this really working 100% (or close to) is if you could somehow only authorize transactions from your phone and deny any transactions that use your card or card #.

I could be way off though.
Click to expand...

It's a one time use number. So Apple Pay would allow them to steal a set of useless numbers that'll just decline after that use.
 
dontwalkhand said:
Targets new Verifone terminals do support NFC, AND chip cards. They are waiting on new register software in early 2015.

Walmart's new ones do too, but older stores need upgrading.

Even Arizona grocery store chain Basha's now have NFC, ITS HAPPENING PEOPLE
Click to expand...

Target has NEVER said they'll enable NFC support, to the best of my knowledge, only the chip card support.

Walmart said in a webinar on EMV migration yesterday that they WON'T enable NFC.
 
Lindsford said:
Was thinking the same thing I don't go to a Walmart unless it's the only thing nearby or open.

Best Buy is terrible too. I went to go look at tvs when I first moved and stopped in since it was right next to where I had dinner, I found a floor model tv I wanted to purchase and both employees refused to plug it up to an actual feed to make sure everything was ok. They just plugged the tv into the wall and said "See, it works" -_-.

Good riddance to both. Wish we had a Frys Electronics or a Microcenter in Tampa
Click to expand...

I don't care for walmarts practices at all and refuse to support them, even if they don't notice, I know.

Best buy I used to be very faithful to. Until I had a $100 price match owed to me via their policy, but they refused to issue it over some convoluted bs. Never shopped there again.

We have a Microcenter near here it's nice but always a madhouse. I've never been to a Fry's but have heard good things.
 
nsayer said:
I wonder most of all what Square's reaction to the EMV deadline is going to be. I deal with a bunch of sole proprieterships and small businesses every week that use square and the mag stripe reader.

Can the NFC chip be used to emulate an NFC station? That is, is NFC a peer-to-peer hardware system like Firewire or a master/slave system like USB?

Even if the NFC chip in the iPhone could be used to be an NFC station, would Apple allow it for apps like Square?

If not, then is Square going to make a DFI lightning attached NFC terminal? Perhaps in the form of an iPad Mini or iPod Touch wrapper or something?
Click to expand...
Square has an emv Chip card solution In the works, even says they're working on a contact less reader.

I'm more worried about the other guys, Intuit GoPayment etc. they haven't announced any EMV support.
 
As much as people are bashing walmart and best buy there are a lot more retailers that are under Merchant customer exchange that we wont be seeing under apple pay.

Here some list of retailers

Walmart
Best Buy
Target
Lowes
Dillards
Kohls
Bed bath beyond
Kmart
Micheals
meijer
Sears
Gap
Old navy
Banana republic
Shell gas
76
exxonmobil
circle k
7-11
Rite aid
CVS

And a lot more.

Interesting that the rumor of CVS was going to be under apple pay but they are still listed under merchant customer exchange and not in the apple site part of apple pay. As much as people are excited about apple pay I dont see it gaining much traction. Merchant customer exchange has been around for a long time and has plenty of retailers under their belt. So far the list for apple isnt great the only place I go to on their list is petco just to buy my dog food.
 
gixxerfool said:
I don't care for walmarts practices at all and refuse to support them, even if they don't notice, I know.

Best buy I used to be very faithful to. Until I had a $100 price match owed to me via their policy, but they refused to issue it over some convoluted bs. Never shopped there again.

We have a Microcenter near here it's nice but always a madhouse. I've never been to a Fry's but have heard good things.
Click to expand...

Fry's still runs on DOS, AND DOES NOT even have customer facing PIN pads, good luck getting them to get NFC.

As for Walmart, I worked for them, and I didn't mind it. Don't believe everything the mass media says. I have many friends who do still work there and don't mind it at all.
 
Trapezoid said:
I'm not downplaying it, I feel you're downplaying apples role lol. Above someone said the emv deadline is Oct 2015. So yes, apple may have timed it right, but their influence is obvious.

You see, for years people have been saying apples contributions are no big deal because the tech would have logically progressed there.

With nfc, countless people have said only apple can make it popular. I think we're seeing that right now. Credit should be given where due.

Numbers were posted by kdarling which showed the snail pace that nfc payment usage is growing. It was, and I use was intentionally, projected to get big by 2017. You will see it get big far before that now. That's because apple adopted the tech.
Click to expand...

kind of a useless argument though, because we will never know, because of the existence of the emv deadline

good day sir :)

even I could project that nfc would increase in popularity after the emv deadline, even without apple's support :p
 
MauriceMoss said:
Here's my .02:

MCX, their partners, and other "industry insiders" are predicting a fail for :apple: pay because 1) new equipment and 2) lack of "rewards or incentives" for using the service on the part of the customer.

Apparently, their studies have shown that people are more likely to use a mobile payment system if the customer receives some sort of points or rewards from the merchant.

I don't care. Seriously. I don't care about loyalty points or rewards for things that I'm already going to buy anyway. I care about convenience. And MCX and their currentC app are NOT convenient.

Get out phone, unlock phone, go to app, select whatever needs selecting, generate qr code, use pin to authenticate, scan code (maybe more than once, because we all know how well that can work) pay. Done.

With :apple: Pay, I' just pull out my phone, tap, and use touchID to verify. done. No opening the app or unlocking the phone... it's much more simple. There's no app to update and manage and find. It just works automatically. I don't have to worry about looking at points balances and reward incentives...

I can't speak for everyone about rewards and loyalty and points, but for me, I'd be a more loyal customer the faster and easier I can get in, get what I need, and get out.
Click to expand...
Don't you have to go into Passbook and select which card you're using?
 
anek007 said:
As much as people are bashing walmart and best buy there are a lot more retailers that are under Merchant customer exchange that we wont be seeing under apple pay.

Here some list of retailers

Walmart
Best Buy
Target
Lowes
Dillards
Kohls
Bed bath beyond
Kmart
Micheals
meijer
Sears
Gap
Old navy
Banana republic
Shell gas
76
exxonmobil
circle k
7-11
Rite aid
CVS

And a lot more.

Interesting that the rumor of CVS was going to be under apple pay but they are still listed under merchant customer exchange and not in the apple site part of apple pay. As much as people are excited about apple pay I dont see it gaining much traction. Merchant customer exchange has been around for a long time and has plenty of retailers under their belt.
Click to expand...
Merchants will bend to the will of the consumer who has money to spend or else...and they will also bend to the will of the banks and CC companies who will force them or charge them additional fees for not doing it. Itll be a few years but debit cards werent accepted right off the bat either.
 
hudson1 said:
Apple's solution is akin to them asking retailers to install a new credit card device (granted, much more secure) and then saying it will only accept one credit card. The best way for Apple to make money on this is to open the protocol so all smartphones with NFC can take advantage. THAT will get the attention of retailers. Let's remember, Apple only has a 15 - 20% market share of smartphones. Retailers know that quite well.
Click to expand...

Arghhh. It IS an open protocol. The NFC terminals work with Google Wallet, Apple Pay, etc.

And, as has been pointed out before, because of the liability shift just over a year from now, these retailers are going to be wanting/needing to update their credit card terminals ANYWAY. So it is very little cost to make the upgrade an NFC capable terminal.
 
dontwalkhand said:
It's a one time use number. So Apple Pay would allow them to steal a set of useless numbers that'll just decline after that use.
Click to expand...

Right but my point is, they could still steal your credit card or debit card number. Apple Pay doesn't change that. It eliminates the possibility it may be stolen right there but it's still not completely solving the problem people could get ahold of the number and still use it. Presumably that would become less likely the more you're able to use Apple Pay (less exposure).
 
markie said:
Target has NEVER said they'll enable NFC support, to the best of my knowledge, only the chip card support.

Walmart said in a webinar on EMV migration yesterday that they WON'T enable NFC.
Click to expand...

And reasoning for that is because if you read up on MCX, merchants are prohibited from supporting competitor's system. WHEN MCX fails, they already have the terminals in place. Nobody is going to want a second or third app on their phone.
 
gotluck said:
kind of a useless argument though, because we will never know, because of the existence of the emv deadline

good day sir :)

even I could project that nfc would increase in popularity after the emv deadline, even without apple's support :p
Click to expand...

That's not the point. I'm not saying it wouldn't have increased without apple. I'm saying it was projected to increase at a snails pace. You will see it increase far far quicker now.

This is not a coincidence. I don't see how anyone can argue that it is. In one year you will see the previous projections were completely wrong. You can bookmark this post and laugh at me if that's not the case lol :D
 
anek007 said:
As much as people are bashing walmart and best buy there are a lot more retailers that are under Merchant customer exchange that we wont be seeing under apple pay.

Here some list of retailers

Walmart
Best Buy
Target
Lowes
Dillards
Kohls
Bed bath beyond
Kmart
Micheals
meijer
Sears
Gap
Old navy
Banana republic
Shell gas
76
exxonmobil
circle k
7-11
Rite aid
CVS

And a lot more.

Interesting that the rumor of CVS was going to be under apple pay but they are still listed under merchant customer exchange and not in the apple site part of apple pay. As much as people are excited about apple pay I dont see it gaining much traction. Merchant customer exchange has been around for a long time and has plenty of retailers under their belt. So far the list for apple isnt great the only place I go to on their list is petco just to buy my dog food.
Click to expand...



CVS, rite aid, circle K and more companies off of that list already has NFC today and now. No issues there.
 
kilcher said:
Yeah, but from what I understand this won't stop any of that. If someone has your card # or a fake card they can still use it as they could before. All the fingerprint sensor does is stop them from using your PHONE as a credit card and really who would do that?

Ex. I had three charges to my debit card last week, 2 in Mexico and 1 in Texas (I'm in Illinois). Even if I had my debit card linked to Apple Pay that would not have stopped that person from obtaining and using my information (unless they somehow got the information directly from my card and not elsewhere, which is possible).

The only way I could see this really working 100% (or close to) is if you could somehow only authorize transactions from your phone and deny any transactions that use your card or card #.

I could be way off though.
Click to expand...

No, it does much more. Yes it proves who you are by your thumb but it ALSO gives the merchant a fake credit card number that only works when combined with a random one-time use token.

If someone infiltrates the reader or the merchant's system, what they will get will be fake credit card numbers and a bunch one-time use tokens. NOTHING that will allow them to get the ACTUAL credit card number or other details.

It is a big security win. It would have prevented the Target and Home Depot debacles because all the thieves would have got were fake numbers and tokens that couldn't be used. Essentially a bunch of static.
 
Trapezoid said:
That's not the point. I'm not saying it wouldn't have increased without apple. I'm saying it was projected to increase at a snails pace. You will see it increase far far quicker now.

This is not a coincidence. I don't see how anyone can argue that it is. In one year you will see the previous projections were completely wrong. You can bookmark this post and laugh at me if that's not the case lol :D
Click to expand...

in one year the emv deadline would be iminent! How can I evaluate the situation a year from now to reconcile this 'far quicker' rate? There is no way I could prove you wrong.. How could I get the rate of increase for the next year without the effect of apple pay?

we're uselessly arguing :)
 
nsayer said:
I wonder most of all what Square's reaction to the EMV deadline is going to be. I deal with a bunch of sole proprieterships and small businesses every week that use square and the mag stripe reader.

Can the NFC chip be used to emulate an NFC station? That is, is NFC a peer-to-peer hardware system like Firewire or a master/slave system like USB?

Even if the NFC chip in the iPhone could be used to be an NFC station, would Apple allow it for apps like Square?

If not, then is Square going to make a DFI lightning attached NFC terminal? Perhaps in the form of an iPad Mini or iPod Touch wrapper or something?
Click to expand...

This is a question I have too. Can an NFC enabled phone also act as a terminal...sure would make a service like square quite convenient for those customers that have NFC phones.
 
"Apple Pay is simply more secure for merchants and payment networks, and more private for consumers. Better user experience, better security, and better privacy, all backed with a business model that makes sense for nearly everyone involved (except merchants and carriers who want to track your behavior): I think we can see where this is headed."

So THATS why walmart won't jump on board yet. They loose all their tracking data.

http://www.macworld.com/article/260...mobile-payment-system-youll-actually-use.html
 
nsayer said:
I wonder most of all what Square's reaction to the EMV deadline is going to be. I deal with a bunch of sole proprieterships and small businesses every week that use square and the mag stripe reader.

Can the NFC chip be used to emulate an NFC station? That is, is NFC a peer-to-peer hardware system like Firewire or a master/slave system like USB?

Even if the NFC chip in the iPhone could be used to be an NFC station, would Apple allow it for apps like Square?

If not, then is Square going to make a DFI lightning attached NFC terminal? Perhaps in the form of an iPad Mini or iPod Touch wrapper or something?
Click to expand...

Square has already announced and demoed their EMV reader. It is chip-and-signature only so it only completely complies with the liability shift for Visa. For MC/Discover/Amex there are still portions that apply (a lost PIN card used without the PIN, the merchant is liable - except with Visa)
 
nsayer said:
Really?

Did you see the video? It wasn't hyperbole. It was a reasonably fair representation of the plastic purchase procedure. While we have only the video's word for it that Pay is as easy as described, I can't reasonably conceive of a situation that makes it less easy to simply pull out your phone and touch the ID button (remember, this is NFC - the phone's proximity to the NFC terminal should prompt it to engage in the payment process - no unlocking the phone or launching an app).
Click to expand...

Not quite. "Your phone" should be "your iPhone 6 (or later)". There are none out there now and in the next year I doubt it will amount to more than 5% of all smartphones worldwide. I can't blame retailers for not jumping in on a solution that so few people can use for at least a couple years or more.
 
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