Walmart Pay 'Close to Surpassing' Apple Pay in U.S. Mobile Payments Usage

Discussion in 'MacRumors.com News Discussion' started by MacRumors, Nov 7, 2017.

  1. Davrosuk macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    #326
    Holds no water? Apart from the fact that I regularly buy lunch with Apple Pay? Actually try finding a restaurant in the UK that *doesn't* take it.

    And you hand your card to a waiter? You're doing in wrong. You never, ever hand a card to a third party even for a second. Basic security 101.
     
  2. MattTheCarpenter macrumors newbie

    MattTheCarpenter

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    #327
    Here’s the thing about Walmart pay vs Apple Pay. Walmart pay security is a joke compared to Apple Pay. There is a piece of hardware in the iPhone called the Secure Enclave which is completely outside of the operating system. When you add a card to Apple Pay, the information is sent to the bank for approval and if approved, the bank grants you a transaction ID. That transaction ID is saved on the Secure Enclave, NOT your card information. When you use Apple Pay at a merchant, the merchant pulls the transaction ID which already has approval from the bank, it generates a randomly generated one time use security code (CVV), and the bank approves the transaction. That transaction ID doesn’t have your card information linked to it, it essentially replaces the card information as the form of payment. What this all means is that ** YOUR CARD INFORMATION IS NEVER ON YOUR PHONE NOR IN THE MERCHANTS SYSTEM**. If a data breech like Target’s occurred, the information is bogus and cannot be traced back to the person. ID theft is IMPOSSIBLE with Apple Pay. Plus, it can be removed or suspended using any device, including a PC, either through Find My iPhone or the settings on an Apple Device that has the same Apple ID. If you put the device in Lost mode on Find My iPhone, it suspends the ability to use Apple Pay, which can’t be used anyway without knowing the passcode or having a registered fingerprint/Face on the device. It can also be used at online check out.

    Walmart Pay on the other hand functions like Android Pay, Samsung Pay, etc... which all transaction essentially the same as using the chip on a card. Identity theft happens with online check out and in store purchases using a card with a chip all the time.

    The security and protection difference between the two systems is huge. Apple Pay wins every single time and there’s no way around that. The FBI even confirms that it is the safest way to pay for anything aside from cash AND it still transacts on your bank statement as normal so you also have a digital paper trail for your own records.
     
  3. kdarling, Nov 8, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017

    kdarling macrumors demi-god

    kdarling

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    #328
    Correct, except for the names. It's called a token account number (aka Device Account Number), and it's stored in the Secure Element (which is used for NFC). Not the Secure Enclave, which is part of the main CPU.

    Android and Samsung Pay also use token accounts.

    Walmart Pay also does not store any card info on the device. However, they likely act as their own token vault, so even though no personal or account info passes through their retail terminals, your real credit card is stored on a Walmart (owned or contracted) server somewhere.

    Of course, that's true for Apple, Android and Samsung Pay as well. Our real account numbers are stored somewhere on credit-card/third-party token vault servers, which we all hope are secure.
     
  4. Davrosuk macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    #329

    Worth mentioning that Google Pay does permit Google to collect information on your transaction though which I think is a real negative in terms of privacy - the below is from the T's&C's:
    • Information Google May Collect
    In order for Google to provide and improve Android Pay services, you permit Google to collect transaction, account, and other personal information from third parties, including merchants and your card’s issuer.
    Samsung Pay has similar conditions I believe.
     
  5. kdarling macrumors demi-god

    kdarling

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    #330
    Depends on when and where. Some of these things are necessary at times, and others help improve the service.

    E.g. to register a card in Apple Pay, Apple has to first collect the information on the front of the card, then send that information along with personal Apple account information, address, credit, etc, to the bank. (The extra personal info helps the bank determine if the person registering the card is also likely the card owner.)

    During a contactless transaction, Apple also may anonymously collect the time, location (and they used to collect the transaction amount, not sure about now). This is to improve their store location information, figure out where everyone is purchasing stuff, and also likely to help them audit what the banks kick back to Apple in fees.

    During an online Apple Pay transaction, Apple also sends helpful information that Apple knows to merchants, such as our most recently used contact info, plus billing and shipping addresses.

    That's only in the Terms for non-US users. It's not in the Terms for users in the United States.
     
  6. Davrosuk macrumors newbie

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    #331
    Interesting. A friend of mine refuses to use it because of this specific item in the conditions. Clearly only a non-US issue. First world problems huh? :)
     
  7. Scottsoapbox macrumors 6502

    Scottsoapbox

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2014
    #332
    Yawn, nope I only read the MacRumors article which is what I commented on. So you can direct all your angst at them.

    > Walmart Pay is "close to surpassing" Apple Pay in terms of mobile payments usage in the United States
    --- Post Merged, Nov 8, 2017 ---
    Congrats on not seeing any of my already 7 responses about this.
     
  8. dontwalkhand macrumors 601

    dontwalkhand

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    Phoenix, AZ
    #333
    Our parking meters in Phoenix take cards and Apple Pay! Whoo Hoo!

    And so many people don’t realize a LOT of local mom and pop places take Apple Pay, I’m actually eating lunch at a small airport cafe right now as I’m typing this and they have Apple Pay!
    --- Post Merged, Nov 8, 2017 ---
    P’Shaw, I just bring a license with me and my phone.
    --- Post Merged, Nov 8, 2017 ---
    In the US the newer chip terminals are programmed to *BYPASS* the PIN on a PIN card at restaurants !

    The receipt even says PIN Bypassed on it!! and prints a tip and signature line.

    Thankfully not the case in a regular store. Those work like every other country where *you the customer* puts the card in and punch in your PIN.
    --- Post Merged, Nov 8, 2017 ---
    Are the Canadian walmart chip readers as slow as the US ones? Walmart and CVS here have the slowest Chip readers ever!
     
  9. I7guy macrumors G5

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    #334
    Would rather have my cc info on apples servers any day of the week rather than Walmart or target.
     
  10. tmiw macrumors 68000

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    San Diego, CA
    #335
    A lot of major merchants don't ask for the PIN if the amount's small enough. Examples of ones that don't ask include Walgreens, Target (unless you're using a REDcard) and 7-Eleven.
     
  11. kdarling macrumors demi-god

    kdarling

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    #336
    Interestingly, I've used the ParkMobile app in both a small town in New Jersey, and in St. Louis. I have it set to take money from PayPal.

    You enter the parking lot and space code, and how long you're staying. Then if you're running late, you can remotely increase the time. Beats having to run back and tap the meter again in person!

    Yeah, CVS is bad.

    Our local Stop & Shop grocery now takes NFC payment. When they updated, they also changed the software so you can pull out your chip card right away. Was actually confusing at first!
     
  12. Crispyboar macrumors newbie

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  13. Rocwurst macrumors newbie

    Rocwurst

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    #338
     
  14. AppleScruff1 macrumors G3

    AppleScruff1

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    #339
    Imagine how Amazon Pay will bury Apple Pay!
     
  15. Rocwurst macrumors newbie

    Rocwurst

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    #340
    There are over 1 billion active Apple iOS devices around the world owned by the the most lucrative demographic on the planet - more than enough to maintain Apple's stranglehold worldwide on mobile payments.

    And by stranglehold, I mean stranglehold. Apple Pay now accounts for a gob-smacking 90 percent of all mobile contactless transactions globally. 90 percent!! In contrast Walmart Pay is only available at Walmart. It is just not even remotely possible for it to overtake Apple Pay - even in the USA.

    Walmart doesn't have a hope with it's awful convoluted mobile payment model. Seriously, unlocking your phone, launching the payments app and then finally lining up the camera and photographing a QR code is hopelessly flawed compared to just holding your iPhone to the NFC terminal with your finger on the TouchID button, let alone FaceID or just tapping the Apple Watch on your wrist on the terminal.
     
  16. dontwalkhand macrumors 601

    dontwalkhand

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    #341
    It feels like a lot of steps but it really isn’t that hard. I know NFC is 1000 times better but Walmart Pay is not bad at all. It’s certainly better than what Target has right now- which is absolutely no way to pay with a phone at all.
     
  17. kdarling, Nov 8, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017

    kdarling macrumors demi-god

    kdarling

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    #342
    It's 90% of such transactions by count in the markets where Apple Pay is "available". Not clear if that means the 20 markets where it is supported by banks, or anywhere there's NFC.

    On the contrary, inside Walmart, Walmart Pay is the only contactless hope (except for Samsung Pay of course)... and that's all Walmart cares about.

    It's not intended to be used anywhere else.
     
  18. D582 macrumors newbie

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    Nov 16, 2015
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    Toronto/San Francisco
    #343
    Contactless payment IS standardised. Apple Pay is simply an implementation of the contactless EMV for each of its supported card networks. So is Android Pay. It is not fundamentally different than using a contactless card (yes, I realise these are a foreign concept in the US). If a terminal accepts contactless, it accepts Apple Pay, Android Pay etc.

    Also, any fees paid to Apple are paid by the card issuer (i.e. your bank) from the interchange it receives from the transaction. There is no difference to the merchant. US banks are paying Apple the highest cut in the world. In other countries, Apple is receiving anywhere from nothing to a fraction of what it receives in the US depending on the card type.

    EMV cards do share your card number. But regardless of that, the issue of being able to track and link purchases made with a physical card and with tokenised payment methods was a problem. This is why the EMV tokenisation specs were updated to add a new field: Payment Account Reference (PAR). This is a 25 character number that is consistent across the use of a physical card and tokenised payments on all devices. It will always remain the same even if you get a new physical card number. PAR is not fully baked yet but within the next 12-15 months, should be able to be leveraged by merchants for this purpose.
     
  19. Alan Wynn macrumors member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2017
    #344
    Sorry, you do not get to blame them for your incorrect statements. The macrumors article says:

    You said:

    Again, you are wrong on two counts - first, they have not even surpassed Apple (as the quote you include above shows) in the metric they choose to use ("use by shoppers in stores where they're accepted") and second that does not mean that they do more daily transactions than Apple Pay. It just means that eventually, it may (or may not), surpass them in percentage of users who can use them that do. To help you understand, that means that even if 100% of Walmart's transactions in its 4,672 U.S. locations, there is no guarantee that it would ever surpass Apple Pay's transaction or dollar volume.

    Your post also fails to respond to the original comment's main issue without the methodology (something that a peer reviewed would evaluate) and more data (how many transactions and what their dollar volume is), the statement made by Mr. Eckert (the Walmart executive quoted), we have no idea if it is correct or meaningful.
     
  20. Cmdrx3 macrumors member

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    Apr 5, 2013
    #345
    I guess Apple Pay in the US is having a tough time... in the UK I have found very few places where I shop that don't accept it. Generally it's the small family run shops that don't
     
  21. Alan Wynn macrumors member

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    #346
    Were it a county, its net sales (maybe an analog for GDP? :-D) would make it number 41, between Switzerland and Kazakstan according to IMF estimates.

    There are two differences and ultimately they will determine how successful Walmart Pay is overall (especially if they try to make expand it to other merchants). First, I do not need to use the Apple Store App to check out at the Apple Store - I can do so if I want to use self-service checkout, where as to use Walmart Pay, I always need to bring up the app. Activating Apple Pay (and from what I understand Android and Samsung Pay, although I have never used them), is a much more seamless process than Walmart Pay and is likely to always be so given Walmart Pay's lack of device OS integration. For regular Walmart shoppers, Walmart may have generated enough value to overcome the hassle of downloading the app, registering, adding cards, and needing to find it before I make my purchase.

    As NFC pay becomes more common, the ease of using Apple/Android/Samsung Pay will grow, while Walmart Pay will need to find other incentives to get non-regular shoppers to use it.

    The theoretical consumer value in CurrentC was that by including many merchants at which a customer shops regularly, it would be more likely to get people to register and use it. The merchant value was that it was supposed to be funded directly from customers' bank accounts to avoid interchange fees. Given that Walmart Pay does not even allow that, I am not clear they did just build a loyalty program that works with NFC, QR Code and/or phone number, rather than requiring this clumsier system. From what I can tell, it would be easy to generate all the same data, would be easier for consumers (and would mean that a family could link its transactions without needing to give every member access to the payment card). Maybe their long term goal is to add direct account debit and to offer incentives to get users to switch to that, otherwise, I do not see the benefit of this vs. just a loyalty program.
     
  22. kdarling macrumors demi-god

    kdarling

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    #347
    Wow. Thanks for looking that up. I had read it was even higher than that, with 1/3 of Americans shopping there each week, and 1/4 of all US groceries are bought there.

    True. Perhaps they don't care about non-regular shoppers?

    For now a major benefit of Walmart Pay is that it does not require a phone with NFC. That's the same reason why airlines still use QR codes for boarding passes: much more widespread availability.

    As for store specific apps, I think that most Starbucks purchases are done via their own app as well. Plus Taco Bell and CVS apps are reportedly rising quickly in popularity.

    It looks like people are quite okay with store specific apps that offer tangible benefits to the regular user.
     
  23. I7guy macrumors G5

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    #348
    Some people, I’m not. No store specific apps for me.
     
  24. tmiw macrumors 68000

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    San Diego, CA
    #349
    Yep. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if some QR based system eventually wins out in the US (as it has in other countries with not so good banking systems), but that's hugely different from suggesting that people would be okay with downloading an app for every single store they visit on an even somewhat frequent basis.
     
  25. lordofthereef macrumors G5

    lordofthereef

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    #350
    We are already asked todo this for streaming video content... and it's owrking sadly.
     

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