Warming-up for the all-new redesigned retina 2014 (2015?) MacBook Air

[iRun26.2]

The fan is literally always on if the machine is on. It may not be audible but it is on and in fact providing cooling to the CPU.

Broadwell Y series SKUs will have the capability to be fanless but will come at roughly a 35% performace decrease (using current Haswell comparisions) to the U series counterpart:

4250U - 3479
4210Y - 2247

4650U - 4357
4610Y - 3514

Note that the Y series SKUs also use HD 4200 graphics, which are much worse than HD 5000. They are roughly equal to HD 4000 graphics from Ivy Bridge.

The Y series SKUs are also expected to see a roughly 30% power drop but at the same performance, there has not been any mention of Broadwell performance increases as of yet.

Also, Broadwell mobile so far does not have DDR4 support confirmed, only Broadwell desktop and Haswell E have been confirmed.

So if the machine does go Broadwell Y its looking like it will have better power consumption, much worse graphics, the power of the current i5 processor, the same RAM and undoubtedly worse performance when combined with a retina display...all for the same price!

------------------------

I've said this before, but when you look at the positioning of the MBA its too good right now. Performance wise its only about 8-10% away from the 13" rMBP and is cheaper with better battery life and portability.

Take into account the BOM cost of the MBA (estimated at $718 back in 2010 when a Core2 Duo was only $80 vs $300+ for a current i5) and the product line has reached an inflection point.

Personally I'm hoping Apple goes to a lower cost ARM route and, in effect, starts some profound changes in the mobile computing landscape.

DDR4 memory is so perfect for the rumored new ultra-thin, fan-less 12" MBA that I can't see Apple announcing it without it.

1) DDR4 can use much less power.
2) DDR4 is much faster.

Lower power is a key to making the laptop fan-less. Faster subsystems (like memory and SSD) are key to making up for the lower processing performance of a fan-less Broadwell part.

I don't see Apple releasing it without Broadwell that supports DDR4. I think it will have both.

It would be a joke if it had an ARM processor...

 

[holydude]

Afaik the US pricing has no tax included because it varies on different states. In Europe - at least in Germany - prices include 19% tax.

Buying something in the US requires to pay the 19% tax when entering the EU again as a EU citizen. Otherwise it would be really cheap to order online at B&H in NYC.

holydude, I'm sure you didn't violate law and paid all taxes at the airport back home.

Yeah **** EU . But even if you would convert USD to eur and add 19% tax it would still be cheaper than $ == Eur as they are selling it now.


And yeah well i feel pity for Brazil...

 

[GooberMan]

Blast! Was all set to get a MacBook Air, then saw the rumors of a new one in June that is lighter and with Retina.

I'm mad only because I have to wait.

 

[skaertus]

It will be interesting to see where they land with respect to pricing.

I would think they'd want to be pretty aggressive and essentially make this new 12" MBA the go-to laptop not just on OSX but also against PCs and Chromebooks.

Perhaps 128gb and 256gb models at $899 and $1099 respectively? (USD)

Sure it's no $400 PC laptop or $200 Chromebook but, these new MBA's would have decent CPU's and retina displays. While this would seriously undercut the current MBAs which I assume would be discountinued.

I am curious about the pricing as well. I do not think it will hit the US$ 899 and US$ 1099 marks, however. SSDs are still expensive, and retina IPS displays are certainly more expensive than the TN displays used in current Airs.

Apple could make the retina Airs the same price as the current models. In this case, the cheapest would cost about US$ 999 and the most expensive would cost about US$ 1,299. I remember, however, that Apple axed the prices of the Airs recently, probably because they are not on par with high-end competitors anymore. If Apple decides to raise the prices, I don't think the cheapest model will cost more than US$ 1,099, unless Apple chooses to keep the current form factor as a low-end alternative.

Apple always has alteratives for all price ranges. I don't think Apple will price the new Air for less than US$ 899, as it would enter iPad territory. Similarly, I don't think apple will price the new Air for more than US$ 1,099, otherwise the price range of US$ 1,000 would remain uncovered by Apple products.

 

[citivolus]

Fwiw, I too was very curious about the price of the rumored 12" Air so I created a poll:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1720833/

 

[skaertus]

Fwiw, I too was very curious about the price of the rumored 12" Air so I created a poll:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1720833/

Interesting thread. It is also interesting that people answering the poll is also divided. There seems to be no uniform opinion on which will be the price of the next MacBook Air.

 

[MyopicPaideia]

DDR4 memory is so perfect for the rumored new ultra-thin, fan-less 12" MBA that I can't see Apple announcing it without it.

1) DDR4 can use much less power.
2) DDR4 is much faster.

Lower power is a key to making the laptop fan-less. Faster subsystems (like memory and SSD) are key to making up for the lower processing performance of a fan-less Broadwell part.

I don't see Apple releasing it without Broadwell that supports DDR4. I think it will have both.

It would be a joke if it had an ARM processor...

I am not gonna say I hope you are wrong, and I also believe that this new MacBook will not be ARM, but the guy you are replying to does have a point.

ARM would not, in fact, be a joke. All Apple would have to do is require that all apps sold in the Mac App Store (MAS) contain both x86 and ARM versions. Poof, all your compatability issues gone. Yes even MS Office! For developers it is simply a matter of recompiling their app. It is literally only a couple of mouse clicks or command lines of effort, as none of the source code needs to even be touched. There are already several third party cross compilers out there, and if Apple was smart it would integrate its own into its development tools, making it literally a one click operation. It would be an easier transition for a developer than updating an app for a new iOS resolution.

The only things that would really leave me with questions as to performance with an ARM processor would be integrated graphics performance (Intel is still ahead here by far) and Thunderbolt compatibility. Virtual machine software to run Windows under wouldn't really be affected as there are already ARM VM solutions out there today that can have Windows as a guest OS. Sure you lose the ability to run Windows natively as an alternative boot up, but that is unnecessary unless you are playing games in any case. I get my Windows needs solved by running a VirtualBox Windows VM on my 2010 Mac mini at home and can access it anywhere with either my MBA, iPad, or iPhone if needed using Microsoft's excellent new version of their remote desktop app. Have fooled a lot of people into thinking my iPad mini was running Windows 8 natively, I can tell you that much

Depending on what Apple had up its sleeve in terms of next generation A-series ARM processors running full OSX, first imagine a completely unthrottled A7 sitting in a roomier chassis with an over-clock feature, access to 4GB or more of RAM, 4 cores, larger L2 and L3 caches, fast SSD's instead of slow NAND flash storage, etc. Now double that performance. You are now probably somewhere in the range of a current Y-series Haswell processor already, meaning that the performance should be roughly comparable to the 2011 MBA that I currently use, that runs all the latest productivity software I require MS Office included, as well as all of Apple's own software suites like butter.

Could you play Elder Scrolls Online with it? No - but that is not what this machine will be for either...

Anyway, it is a speculative argument, and probably irrelevant anyway, as I just don't see it happening this time around. It may never happen in the way either you or I imagine - but it does seem clear that Apple has bigger plans for its processors than to power its phones and tablets.

I don't personally see the y-series Broadwell processor having DDR4 memory compatibility. I think that seeing an ARM processor in there is more likely than that. I could be wrong, though! Anything is possible!

 

[bwat47]

On my 2013 11" i5, the fan hardly ever turns on. Most of the time the chassis is so cool to the touch it is practically fanless.

With the next iteration of Broadwell, it's entirely conceivable that the MBA could go fanless.

Yeah same here with my 13' 2013 air, I don't think I've ever heard the fan.

 

[iRun26.2]

I am not gonna say I hope you are wrong, and I also believe that this new MacBook will not be ARM, but the guy you are replying to does have a point.

ARM would not, in fact, be a joke. All Apple would have to do is require that all apps sold in the Mac App Store (MAS) contain both x86 and ARM versions. Poof, all your compatability issues gone. Yes even MS Office! For developers it is simply a matter of recompiling their app. It is literally only a couple of mouse clicks or command lines of effort, as none of the source code needs to even be touched. There are already several third party cross compilers out there, and if Apple was smart it would integrate its own into its development tools, making it literally a one click operation. It would be an easier transition for a developer than updating an app for a new iOS resolution.

The only things that would really leave me with questions as to performance with an ARM processor would be integrated graphics performance (Intel is still ahead here by far) and Thunderbolt compatibility. Virtual machine software to run Windows under wouldn't really be affected as there are already ARM VM solutions out there today that can have Windows as a guest OS. Sure you lose the ability to run Windows natively as an alternative boot up, but that is unnecessary unless you are playing games in any case. I get my Windows needs solved by running a VirtualBox Windows VM on my 2010 Mac mini at home and can access it anywhere with either my MBA, iPad, or iPhone if needed using Microsoft's excellent new version of their remote desktop app. Have fooled a lot of people into thinking my iPad mini was running Windows 8 natively, I can tell you that much

Depending on what Apple had up its sleeve in terms of next generation A-series ARM processors running full OSX, first imagine a completely unthrottled A7 sitting in a roomier chassis with an over-clock feature, access to 4GB or more of RAM, 4 cores, larger L2 and L3 caches, fast SSD's instead of slow NAND flash storage, etc. Now double that performance. You are now probably somewhere in the range of a current Y-series Haswell processor already, meaning that the performance should be roughly comparable to the 2011 MBA that I currently use, that runs all the latest productivity software I require MS Office included, as well as all of Apple's own software suites like butter.

Could you play Elder Scrolls Online with it? No - but that is not what this machine will be for either...

Anyway, it is a speculative argument, and probably irrelevant anyway, as I just don't see it happening this time around. It may never happen in the way either you or I imagine - but it does seem clear that Apple has bigger plans for its processors than to power its phones and tablets.

I don't personally see the y-series Broadwell processor having DDR4 memory compatibility. I think that seeing an ARM processor in there is more likely than that. I could be wrong, though! Anything is possible!

My saying that an ARM powered MBA 'would be a joke' was a little too strong. I just can't see Apple being happy to make a revolutionary computer (if it truly is as thin and light as rumors speculate) that only can run OSX. Sure you could run your VM software but how many Windows users are going to know how to do that? I think they'd like to advertise it knowing anyone using a PC or Mac could buy it.

 

[iRun26.2]

Yeah same here with my 13' 2013 air, I don't think I've ever heard the fan.

I use mine in bed almost every evening. My fan is not loud but I can hear it. I can't wait for a MBA without a fan!

Power savings and space savings to make it even thinner and lighter. It's a win / win situation going fan-less.

 

[thebrobrah]

Tradeoffs.

No fan during heavier CPU utilization ...can't be too great for an electronic device

Especially one as thin as the air

 

[iRun26.2]

Tradeoffs.

No fan during heavier CPU utilization ...can't be too great for an electronic device

Especially one as thin as the air

That's as poor of an argument as people who worry about Apple making the next iPhone thinner because it will become more brittle...

Certainly Apple's engineers will take that into account in their design!

If this was a real worry then we would still all be using desktops because 'a portable device can't possibly cool the CPU like a desktop'.

 

[thebrobrah]

Most people won't have that problem because all they do is web browsing and email

Nonetheless, this will be a problem that apple cannot do anything about ..it's Intel's problem

You know that, regards

 

[iRun26.2]

Most people won't have that problem because all they do is web browsing and email

Nonetheless, this will be a problem that apple cannot do anything about ..it's Intel's problem

You know that, regards

Intel has lots of experience in defining and controlling the amount of heat in fan-less systems.

It's not their first time doing a fan-less x86 design either. Haswell has a 7W fan-less part.

I do understand where you are coming from. Heat reduces the lifetime of electronic components. I just can't believe that Apple and Intel have both not done the proper testing.

I will confidently buy it if it released. I sure hope that the fan-less part of the rumor is true. That low level of heat will also be awesome.

I do lots more than email and web browsing (engineering design / scientific modeling) but a MBA can do it all. It may not be as zippy as a MBP but it so much more portable.

 

[vader1990]

To the comments above: I think it would be awesome if there were no fan, and I'm sure the Apple engineers will think it through, but I'm afraid I share the concern that if someone intends to use their Air for anything beyond basic email, browsing, etc. (e.g., coding, watching HD videos, etc.) then either the computer will start to heat up, or the performance will greatly suffer (the latter especially if they go the ARM route; no way that can compete with the i7 the Air currently has). I feel the current Air (i7 + 8GB) is actually a powerful machine for coding, but if they go fanless, I'm afraid that a price will have to be paid..but maybe you guys are on to something, and they don't want the coders buying Airs and this could be their strategy to have them bump up to a rMBP 13.

Hopefully this will not happen, and we will all be in for a wonderful surprise!

 

[thebrobrah]

As will I but the only way Intel will replace fan cooling under duress is to throttle or undervolt. There is no magic trick to offset this even with 14 nm

This results in performance loss

 

[iRun26.2]

As will I but the only way Intel will replace fan cooling under duress is to throttle or undervolt. There is no magic trick to offset this even with 14 nm

This results in performance loss

I currently use a 2010 MBA. If the performance of the fan-less MBA can meet that level of performance I'd be thrilled. I'd rather it be under two pounds (and thinner) than have it as fast as a MBP (with an annoying fan).

I may be crazy, but I have faith that Apple will do it right. The only thing that will stop me from buying it is an ARM processor that will not run my mandatory Windows software (some of which is close to 10 years old). .

 

[thebrobrah]

I believe the 14 air will be slightly worse performing than the 13 air but with retina and it will be a hit

I feel a push towards the mbp and I don't want to go

 

[vader1990]

I believe the 14 air will be slightly worse performing than the 13 air but with retina and it will be a hit

I feel a push towards the mbp and I don't want to go

I hope the 2014 Air is at least as good (performance wise) as the 2013. Honestly I'd be happy if they just put in a retina display and let you have 16GB of ram (and kept the current Haswell CPU). Here's hoping that they do at least that much!

Edit: I too feel that they are trying to separate the Air from the rMBP, but why can't we just have it all! >.<

 

[kwijbo]

My saying that an ARM powered MBA 'would be a joke' was a little too strong. I just can't see Apple being happy to make a revolutionary computer (if it truly is as thin and light as rumors speculate) that only can run OSX. Sure you could run your VM software but how many Windows users are going to know how to do that? I think they'd like to advertise it knowing anyone using a PC or Mac could buy it.

Bootcamp isn't a one step process...the difficulty of it vs. setting up a VM for the average user is probably about the same.

I currently use a 2010 MBA. If the performance of the fan-less MBA can meet that level of performance I'd be thrilled. I'd rather it be under two pounds (and thinner) than have it as fast as a MBP (with an annoying fan).

The 2010 MBA is already surpassed by the iPad Air in terms of computing capability - whether they go with an A8, Haswell-Y or Broadwell-Y it'll be a large increase no matter what.

I believe the 14 air will be slightly worse performing than the 13 air but with retina and it will be a hit

I feel a push towards the mbp and I don't want to go

I hope the 2014 Air is at least as good (performance wise) as the 2013. Honestly I'd be happy if they just put in a retina display and let you have 16GB of ram (and kept the current Haswell CPU). Here's hoping that they do at least that much!

Edit: I too feel that they are trying to separate the Air from the rMBP, but why can't we just have it all! >.<

For certain we won't see a performance increase with a fanless part and that plays right into the further segmentation of the MBA and MBP. If that's the case one would think the price of entry for the MBA would likewise decrease...

Personally I would like to see what vader1990 mentioned above but if I'm going to be pushed into MBP territory there needs to be a large performance gap - Iris Pro graphics and a much faster 28W CPU - considering an i7/8GB MBP is currently ~$450 more than an i7/8GB MBA. A slightly smaller footprint in the 13" MBP would be welcome as well.

What I'm curious about is when this new Air is going to be released. If in June at WWDC they'd surely have to put Haswell refresh parts in there - i5 4220Y was just announced however there is no refresh part for the i7 4610Y. An i5 only MBA would be odd as a 6 month stopgap until Broadwell. They could always get a custom i7 from Intel if that were the case.

If its not released until September as the analyst Ming has predicted then there would be no new notebooks available for back to school which seems like it would be a huge wasted opportunity. September could be late enough that Broadwell would be available though, and maybe Apple would have an event to refresh the entire Mac lineup?

 

[skaertus]

If these new rumors (https://www.macrumors.com/2014/04/24/updated-macbook-airs-next-week/) are true, then the release of the retina MacBook Air will only happen later in the year, perhaps October or November.

 

[MacRazySwe]

If these new rumors (https://www.macrumors.com/2014/04/24/updated-macbook-airs-next-week/) are true, then the release of the retina MacBook Air will only happen later in the year, perhaps October or November.

...And I might be forced to go with a 13" rMBP. Unless I keep my old Air of course. I can't go through the hassle of buying and selling computers during mid term. I had hoped to be able to see and possibly even purchase the new rMBA before school starts again in september.

 

[kwijbo]

If these new rumors (https://www.macrumors.com/2014/04/24/updated-macbook-airs-next-week/) are true, then the release of the retina MacBook Air will only happen later in the year, perhaps October or November.

Well that answers my question above. Could this be the final update for the current MBA before it is relegated to cMBP status?

The upgraded parts will give a couple percentage points boost in performance. It might be time to upgrade my 2012 MBA and hold off on any of the new stuff (rMBA and rMBP) until its been thoroughly tested/reviewed, which could be as late as October/November.

 

[satchmo]

If these new rumors (https://www.macrumors.com/2014/04/24/updated-macbook-airs-next-week/) are true, then the release of the retina MacBook Air will only happen later in the year, perhaps October or November.

Plausible, given the last MBA was just in June last year. Stretching it out for an extra 3-4 months is not unheard of and may spark a run on the 13" rMBP for those needing/wanting the higher resolution.

But does that mean no laptop announcements at WWD? It's almost become a given to unveil a new MB/MBA here.

 

[leonw]

What if this rumored retina 12" thing is a whole new product. A hybrid: ipad on OS X and iOS with usb3, A8 cpu, fanless, thin bluetooth keyboard as cover/stand. Something like this MS Surface but without the flaws.
That's why the current MBA's get this minor specbumb now and maybe another one with Broadwell next year before they are fased out when this hybrid gets more powerful and can replace todays mba? No new mba models anymore?