Warning: Bugs in Sierra which affect all MacBook Pro 2010 models

Discussion in 'macOS Sierra (10.12)' started by SteveJobzniak, Sep 23, 2016.

  1. SteveJobzniak, Sep 23, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2017

    SteveJobzniak macrumors 6502

    SteveJobzniak

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    #1
    EDIT: GREAT NEWS 2017-01-26, APPLE HAS RELEASED A BUGFIX IN 10.12.3: http://forums.macrumors.com/threads...-pro-2010-models.2000559/page-3#post-24237506


    Old post (most of this is still relevant too):
    --------------


    Siri stupidly requires the dedicated GPU in the MacBook Pro 2010. If you use Siri even once, the dedicated GPU will stay active and drain the battery and cause heat and fan noise all the time until you reboot. Come on Apple, what the hell is so hard about not using the dedicated GPU? I don't get how Apple is still too stupid to figure that out. The Siri interface is hardly super advanced, and the basic OpenGL functions can be handled by the Intel GPU just fine. Apple have just proven repeatedly that they are morons, and it's getting tiring and inexcusable. ;)

    Furthermore, Sierra has modified some graphics framework which now causes the MacBook Pro 2010 to enable the dedicated GPU in a few more apps than in the past. But luckily it still seems to be a very specific, isolated thing... because heavy apps like Apple Pages and Zengobi Curio do NOT trigger the dGPU for me.


    Currently these apps require the dedicated GPU for me:

    - gfxCardStatus 2.3 (yes this app itself has a bug caused by Sierra and the developer isn't active anymore; read all about it here https://github.com/codykrieger/gfxCardStatus/issues/240).
    - SiriNCService (Siri requires the dedicated GPU and it stays like this all the time except if I disable Siri; hopefully Apple fixes that later, after lots of MBP 2010 users complain to them about the fans running all the time and the battery life sucking).
    - BetterTouchTool 1.86 (and I also tried the previous 1.83 version and saw the same issue. the app already has "NSSupportsAutomaticGraphicsSwitching" in Info.plist, so that's not it. this shows that Sierra has changed some frameworks and how graphics switching works, and that this app and gfxCardStatus, and very likely other ones too, will now trigger the dGPU whereas in the past they didn't).

    Temporary workaround: Disable Siri, Quit gfxCardStatus and BetterTouchTool.

    ---

    Bonus: Meh, decided to check all my apps to see which ones trigger the dedicated GPU on the MBP 2010:

    • 1Password 6: No
    • Affinity Designer: YES, but it did that on El Capitan too. (Note: The app has an option to "use only integrated GPU" but it doesn't work in Sierra, not sure if it worked on El Capitan. May never have worked on MacBook Pro 2010s, since Apple's frameworks require MBP 2011 or later for certain integrated GPU capabilities)
    • Affinity Photo: YES, but it did that on El Capitan too. (Note: The app has an option to "use only integrated GPU" but it doesn't work in Sierra, not sure if it worked on El Capitan. May never have worked on MacBook Pro 2010s, since Apple's frameworks require MBP 2011 or later for certain integrated GPU capabilities)
    • Airflow: No
    • Alfred 3: No (but the Preferences for the app does)
    • Alfred Preferences: YES, but I don't remember if it did that on El Capitan too. I've reported the issue to them.
    • Anki: No
    • Apple's built-in apps: No (except Apple Photos, which strangely requires the dGPU!)
    • Apple's iWork apps: No (except iMovie, but that's logical to require the dGPU since it's heavy)
    • Arq: No
    • Audio Hijack 3: No
    • BetterTouchTool: YES, and it DIDN'T do that on El Capitan!
    • BetterZip 3: No
    • Caffeine: No
    • Curio 10: No
    • DEVONthink Pro Office 2: No
    • Disk Sensei: No
    • Dropbox: No (but be sure you're running the latest 10.4.26 beta or later, because the latest public release requires the GPU (even on El Cap), and they fixed that in the next Dropbox beta)
    • Fantastical 2: No
    • Gemini 2: No
    • gfxCardStatus 2.3: YES, and it DIDN'T do that on El Capitan!
    • Google Chrome: YES, but it did that on El Capitan too.
    • Helium: No
    • Logic Pro X: YES, as soon as you open a project it requires the dGPU, but it did that on El Capitan too.
    • OmniFocus 2: No
    • Skype 7: No
    • Transmission: No
    • Typinator 6: No
    • Vitamin-R: No
    • VLC: YES, but I don't remember if it did that on El Capitan. Can anyone with a MacBook Pro 2010 and El Capitan check?
    • Xee: YES, but it did that on El Capitan too. (Note: The app has an option to uncheck "use discrete GPU if available" but it doesn't work in Sierra, not sure if it worked on El Capitan. May never have worked on MacBook Pro 2010s, since Apple's frameworks require MBP 2011 or later for certain integrated GPU capabilities)

    ---

    EDIT October 23rd, 2016:

    I finally had time to install El Capitan 10.11.6 on a different hard disk, to check how the apps above behaved back in El Capitan, since nobody else stepped up.

    Here are the EL CAPITAN answers to the Sierra questions above:
    • Affinity Designer/Photo: Requires the dGPU on both Sierra and El Capitan. But on El Capitan you can disable "Use hardware OpenGL" and enable "Use only integrated GPU" (you must do both on 2010 MacBook Pros since only 2011+ can do hardware OpenGL on the iGPU) to use the integrated GPU. That combination doesn't work on Sierra, which uses the dGPU anyway. But whatever, you definitely want to run these apps in dGPU mode, because they're sluggish as hell otherwise.
    • Alfred Preferences: Requires the dGPU on both Sierra and El Capitan.
    • Apple Photos, iMovie and Aperture: All three require the dGPU on both Sierra and El Capitan. (as noted here: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT202053)
    • BetterTouchTool: NO dGPU on El Capitan, YES dGPU on Sierra. This app will probably never be fixed, because the problem is too deep. He tried recompiling it with an SDK target of 10.12 and it still required the dGPU, so there's more to it. The author would have to find the problem deep within the application, and it's not worth the hunt for 6 year old hardware. [[[ As a replacement, I suggest everyone switches to https://www.jitouch.com which KICKS ASS and works with the integrated GPU and is incredibly polished, much faster, super accurate, and with perfectly responsive gestures (you can even do them at odd angles). ]]]
    • gfxCardStatus: NO dGPU on El Capitan, YES dGPU on Sierra. Fixable on Sierra by downloading the new 2.4.2i or newer by Steve Schow. I posted a link to it somewhere in the pages of this thread.
    • Google Chrome: Requires the dGPU on both Sierra and El Capitan.
    • Logic Pro X: Requires the dGPU on both Sierra and El Capitan.
    • VLC: Requires the dGPU on both Sierra and El Capitan.
    • Xee: Requires the dGPU on both Sierra and El Capitan. Unchecking "Use discrete GPU if available" has no effect on El Capitan or Sierra, which means it's probably a limitation of the MacBook Pro 2010, and the option probably only works on MacBook Pro 2011+ (they're the laptops that are capable of doing more stuff on the integrated GPU).
     
  2. WeemanWise macrumors 6502

    WeemanWise

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    #2
    Well that's annoying. Apple needs to hurry up and update the MBPs so I can upgrade from my 2010 MBP.
     
  3. SteveJobzniak thread starter macrumors 6502

    SteveJobzniak

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    #3
    Can anyone with a MacBook Pro 2010 and El Capitan check if VLC requires the discrete GPU?

    Check both when opening VLC without any videos. (Just open the app). And when playing a video.

    On Sierra it instantly requires the discrete GPU, without even playing videos.
     
  4. redpandadev macrumors member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2014
    #4
    This same bug partially affects my Late 2011 MBP.

    The latest BetterTouchTool version fixed that one for me. Otherwise, your list is accurate on my machine as well.
     
  5. SteveJobzniak, Sep 29, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2016

    SteveJobzniak thread starter macrumors 6502

    SteveJobzniak

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    #5
    Unfortunately Apple decided that the MBP 2010 needs to enable the discrete GPU a lot more often than 2011 and newer models. So it is harder for app creators to avoid the discrete GPU on the MBP 2010. For the 2011, all that BetterTouchTool had to do was add the "supports GPU switching" flag to the application bundle. Which he did recently.

    But for the 2010, he will most likely need to drop or update some frameworks or graphics features that are triggering the GPU switch. He can definitely achieve it if he truly wants to, because every other app on my system manages fine without the discrete GPU. Not sure how many people still use MBP 2010, but this matters since BTT is meant to run all the time, and right now the dGPU is on all the time if BTT is running, thus killing the battery life.

    I have the latest BTT version (there is no newer alpha either), and the attached screenshot is the result on my MBP 2010 on Sierra.

    From my research into gfxCardStatus, it seems both issues are related to Sierra disliking apps that are compiled for old versions of certain frameworks. The current official gfxCardStatus version uses old OS X frameworks, and whenever you open the popup menu then gfxCardStatus itself starts requiring the discrete GPU. When gfxCardStatus was recompiled (by someone else) with more modern frameworks, it automatically stopped requiring the discrete GPU, with no code changes needed. I am now anxiously awaiting the official author's promised recompile, so that we get an official gfxCardStatus that works on Sierra.

    This shows that Sierra has some sort of "if an app was built for an old version of a framework, the app must use the discrete GPU", or alternatively it may have "if an app was compiled years ago, the app must use the discrete GPU".

    So, to bring it back to BetterTouchTool... if Sierra's new GPU requirements are based on framework versions, then this may be totally solved when BTT drops support for old OS X versions this fall: https://www.boastr.net/dropping-support-for-os-x-10-7-10-9-this-autumn/
     

    Attached Files:

  6. lambertjohn macrumors 6502

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    Jun 17, 2012
    #6
    Just don't upgrade to Sierra. Problem solved. Keeping my 2010 Macbook Pro running on El Capitan.
     
  7. Nothingfaced macrumors member

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    Aug 15, 2014
    #7
    Why?

    I'd even update my 2008 MacBook if it had not gotten the axe.
     
  8. SteveJobzniak thread starter macrumors 6502

    SteveJobzniak

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    Dec 24, 2015
    #8
    gfxCardStatus, BetterTouchTool and Siri requiring the discrete GPU is literally the only issue I have discovered. I love Sierra. It is incredibly fun to watch YouTube while working, in Picture in Picture mode.

    (Of course, old OS versions can achieve something similar with my bookmarklet (what I used before Sierra) or an app: http://forums.macrumors.com/threads...icture-on-older-macos-versions-kinda.2001406/)
     
  9. Dewdman42 macrumors member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2008
    #9
    Is that really true? where did you get that information? seems brain dead to me unless there is some reason the 2010 integrated chip is unable to handle Siri while the 2011 integrated chip can, or something like that... But yea for me on my 2010 MBP that will be reason to stay off sierra. El cap is working fine.
     
  10. SteveJobzniak, Sep 30, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2016

    SteveJobzniak thread starter macrumors 6502

    SteveJobzniak

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    #10
    @Dewdman42 Yes it's been in the developer guidelines since 2013. And they made it even stricter in Sierra.

    This guy spoke to Apple and was told that being able to use OpenGL on the integrated GPU is only for MBP 2011 and later. And lots of macOS "Core Animation" etc features use OpenGL. So any app that uses Apple's modern animations frameworks automatically fxcks over MBP 2010 users: https://discussions.apple.com/message/21515501#message21515501 (Links to: https://developer.apple.com/library/content/qa/qa1734/_index.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/DTS40010791)

    With Sierra, the behavior is the same as above (OpenGL triggers discrete GPU) but there's additionally some new requirements which seem to look at which SDK (macOS version) the application was compiled for and if it was compiled a long time ago it now requires the discrete GPU under Sierra. That's what hit gfxCardStatus and BetterTouchTool. They can both be fixed.

    Unfortunately I doubt Apple themselves are ever going to fix Siri. I bet it uses some slick "Core Animation" garbage for its animated waveform, which is what triggers OpenGL and the discrete GPU.

    You wanna know the worst thing? Before 10.8.3 was released, the MBP 2010 was allowed to do OpenGL on the integrated GPU. Then Apple said "NOPE", and said that it had been a "bug" that it was previously allowed to use the power-saving mode. Since then, only MBP 2011 and newer (with their newer Intel HD 3000 iGPU) is allowed to use the Intel GPU for animations. Seems pretty suspicious. Maybe they found that the 2010's old-generation integrated GPU was weak and couldn't be fluid enough in its animations but so what? The battery life is more important!!! Sigh. This graphics switching bullsh-t is the only aspect I hate about my MBP 2010 laptop...
     
  11. SteveJobzniak, Oct 4, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2016

    SteveJobzniak thread starter macrumors 6502

    SteveJobzniak

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    Dec 24, 2015
    #11
    Status of the MBP 2010 bugs in Sierra:

    gfxCardStatus: Was fixed by recompiling with newer frameworks. Here's such a recompile for MBP 2010 users: https://github.com/steveschow/gfxCardStatus/releases/tag/v2.4.2i

    BetterTouchTool: Still broken. Will probably be fixed when the author drops all old macOS SDKs and modernizes the app this autumn.

    Siri: Still broken. Hopefully they'll edit their "SiriNCService" ("Siri Notification Center Service", I guess?) daemon to stop using OpenGL permanently even when Siri isn't on screen. I hope 10.12.1 will fix this, but given Apple's lack of care about old machines, I doubt they'll fix it unless enough people notice this bug and scream at them...
     
  12. Dewdman42 macrumors member

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    Jul 25, 2008
    #12
    apple is doing what it has always done, deprecating slightly older hardware way before it's time, even when that hardware is otherwise perfectly useable. My 2010 MBP is loaded up with max memory, the fastest CPU I could get at the time, an SSD too. I even special ordered it with a matte screen because I can't stand the glossy screens. Can't even get those any more.

    The problem with 2010 MBP not having a powerful enough integrated GPU to handle open gl could be solved a lot better it doesn't need to be as course as it is. A lot of open gl works fine on it but obviously a few specific features must not. But Apple decided it would be too costly and complicated to build logic into their frameworks to handle that situation it's just a lot easier for them to force 2010 macs to discrete I guess.

    I am one of the people on a 2010 MBP that is also getting kernel panics with the discrete GPU. I am not at all convinced this is due to faulty hardware though it might be a ****** hardware design hard to say. It could also come from sloppy programming and the sheer number of people having that issue to me implies that is likely the case. But who knows.

    I am willing to bet they will solve this problem by deprecating all macs older then 2011 on the next release of OSX. That is more economical for them plus they know some of us will run out and buy a new Mac at that point. This is what they have always done. I am buying a windows tablet next time frankly. But I will run El cap as long as I can because I enjoy OS X and with gfxcardststus it seems to run all my stuff fine. But once it gets to the point I can't run my software on El cap any more then I'm switching to a windows tablet and that's it. Apple really lost my trust with this 2010 MBP
     
  13. SteveJobzniak thread starter macrumors 6502

    SteveJobzniak

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    Dec 24, 2015
    #13
    @Dewdman42 Agreed. Apple's laptops are awful... 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013... all of those models have discrete GPU issues. And since 2012 or 2013, all models have soldered RAM, soldered SSDs, etc... so that they cannot be user-upgraded.

    I also have a Mac Pro 2009, which was arbitrarily cut off from Sierra until I installed the Mac Pro 2010 firmware which made macOS think I had a newer machine. Why the hell cut off a machine whose hardware is fully supported by the OS?!

    Conclusions:
    - I will never again buy any official Apple computers.
    - I am selling my Mac Pro 2009.
    - I am going to stubbornly use my MacBook Pro 2010 until the day it dies, and enjoy the $3150 or so it (and all its upgrades) cost me over the years. It's nice to have a portable computer, and it is fast enough for basic tasks. If the next macOS version doesn't support it, then I will use the patch tool released on this forum which lets you install macOS on older computers. I can probably get another 5-10 years out of this MBP 2010.
    - And the next powerful desktop in my life? I'll wait 2-3 years and then build Hackintosh, so that I can upgrade the RAM, GPU, CPU and disks as much as I want over the years. Better yet, I am going to build it from other people's 2nd hand parts, since PC parts lose their value so freaking fast. I should be able to build a superb machine for $1000.

    Apple has screwed me over for the last time.
     
  14. Dewdman42 macrumors member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2008
    #14
    I just bought a refurbished 2010 mac Pro, because I felt like it was pretty much the last 12 core machine with PCI slots. i do music stuff and would have to change a lot of other hardware if I changed to the new mac pro, not to mention the good price for this machine. But when I heard that apple dropped support on the 2009 macpro, I definitely felt my heart break. Its only a matter of time before this one is deprecated also. Its very ridiculous. My 2010 mac Pro is faster then any current iMac out there and your 2009 is very similar to it, there is absolutely no reason for this hardware to be deprecated other then lousy engineering by Apple. But we should have known this, they have done this kind of thing for years. I still remember years ago my sister bought one of the post-toaster models, I can't remember which one...and a few years later...literally just a few years later, it was deprecated and not included on the OS update list. They used it for a while using gradually out dated software until they literally threw it in the trash as useless.

    The 2010 MBP's started having severe problems with the discrete GPU literally within 3 years of its release. some people were able to use applecare to get new logic boards, I didn't discover the issue until just after applecare. But regardless, a top of the line laptop should useable without headaches for 10 years. Some will argue with that, but I don't care. Apple released garbage with these units and/or continues to engineer OS updates with very poor regard for backwards compatibility. They've been doing that for years. I thought it would be different when they moved to Intel, but obviously..its not.
     
  15. Decimotox macrumors 6502a

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    #15
    This is a very elaborate revenge plot against Apple that they won't even suspect. Best of luck to you, sir.
     
  16. SteveJobzniak thread starter macrumors 6502

    SteveJobzniak

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    #16
    Thanks. I will never again support a company that keeps coming out with broken graphics cards, unupgradeable hardware (soldered RAM and SSDs), and keeps killing off modern machines like the Mac Pro 2009. The best Macs truly are Hackintoshes.
     
  17. Dewdman42 macrumors member

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    Jul 25, 2008
    #17
    Have you ever tried putting a hackintosh together? I have and let me tell you they call it a hack-intosh for a reason. It's a lot easier now then it was ten years ago for sure but there are still a lot of headaches involved and some hacking. You seem to have plenty of aptitude for it, but honestly the 2010 12 core macpro I bought for $2k is way more computer then any hackintosh I could put together for the same money. Of course when Apple deprecates it I will be crying in my coffee. But then again I still have a hackintosh that is basically stuck on mavericks because of weird stuff on the newer os's I don't have time to figure out. It's functioning as a glorified time machine server now. Going hackintosh is not the end all be all. If you're truly sick of apple's bs I reccomend you consider ms windows.
     
  18. SteveJobzniak thread starter macrumors 6502

    SteveJobzniak

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    #18
    @Dewdman42

    Definitely, I've been trying to hack macOS before Hackintoshes...

    The first fake Mac I built was using the PearPC emulator (powerpc emulator) back in like 2004. It was ultra-slow.

    Then I built a real Intel Hackintosh in 2007 and used it for about 2 years (the name iATKOS will be familiar to early users). Back then it was really fiddly. I had to compile the mach kernel myself for the CPU I was using...

    And then I bought two real Macs in 2010 because I didn't want to fiddle anymore.

    But for a few years now, Hackintoshes have advanced to the point where you only need a special bootloader (Clover or Chameleon). It keeps the system clean and stable, and even system updates usually work without breaking anything.

    And if you follow hardware selection guides you can find the parts that have built-in drivers in macOS, which keeps any fiddliness to a minimum. Definitely check out some video guides on YouTube from 2016. The process nowadays is super easy as long as you pick compatible hardware.

    As for Windows, I want to kill myself every time I use that OS. It is so slow and fiddly and messy and full of viruses.

    So yeah, next desktop workstation (and all my Macs from now on) will be Hackintoshes. They've finally matured enough. Apple has dropped the ball on worthwhile Mac hardware.
     
  19. Dewdman42 macrumors member

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    Jul 25, 2008
    #19
    Well there's the dilemma. No perfect solution. Even with clover or chameleon there can still be som fiddling to do. You sound like you enjoy that so why not.

    The fact that Apple keeps changing things will effect hackintoshes too though.

    I actually love my 12 core macpro but check back when Apple deprecates it out from under me I will be spitting fire.
     
  20. Cougarcat macrumors 604

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2003
    #20
    Concerning the title: Not all 2010's, because not all of them had discrete GPUs

    --

    I'm considergoing the opposite direction. I'm sick of maintaining my Hackintosh. I've found that it's harder to maintain over the years, not easier. Granted, part of this is my fault (I used to have a natively supported graphics card, now I have a 970) but Clover is just a pain to use. I hate it. If the new rMBPs have slightly less overpriced SSDs, I'm considering switching to a 13" and sharing dual displays with my hackintosh, now a gaming PC. This will also free me up in regards to hardware, and I will no longer have to worry if nVidia will ever introduce 10xx support. It's looking increasingly less likely as the official Macs that can use them continue to age.
     
  21. SteveJobzniak thread starter macrumors 6502

    SteveJobzniak

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    #21
    @Cougarcat The PC graphics card situation is even worse on official Mac Pro classics. You get no screen whatsoever if the latest nVidia Web driver isn't installed. At least with Clover hackintoshes you can set "nv_disable=1" at bootup and you get a laggy non-accelerated screen until you install nVidia drivers. With my real Mac Pro I had to pick up the old nVidia GT120 and plug it into the machine to get it to boot (could be avoided in some cases, see my guide in my signature). That's one of many reasons a Hackintosh is better. You always get a screen!

    I will keep waiting a few more years to see how Thunderbolt 3 and USB 3 plays out on the Hackintosh side.

    PS: It's worrying that nVidia has no incentive to make more Web drivers now that only the discontinued Mac Pro classics can install PC graphics cards. It's only a matter of time before they discontinue the nVidia drivers for Mac altogether.
     
  22. Decimotox macrumors 6502a

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    #22
    So yeah...I'm confused on which 2010 MBP you're talking about. Is it the 2.4 ghz C2D 13 inch? Or one of the i5 15-17 inches?

    I don't think the C2D 13 inch has discrete graphics (the 2010 MBP I have). Still on El Cap since I saw some other threads like this which scared me away from upgrading to Sierra.
     
  23. Cougarcat macrumors 604

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    #23
    Yes, that's why I mentioned above that the title is inaccurate. Only applies to the 15". The 13" is integrated.
     
  24. Dewdman42 macrumors member

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    #24
    I personally think Apple is barely in the computer business anymore. They really ought to focus on selling phones, iPads and watches, maybe car technology, etc; and open up their OS X to all intel hardware, beat Microsoft out of the tablet game, and make sure iOS integrates tightly with OS X running on any hardware. They should have done that 20 years ago when they almost went belly up and Steve jobs came back to save them. I like their hardware and I'd probably still buy it over an HP as long as I knew I could use it indefinitely into the future as long as it runs fast enough to keep up. We are at the point now where people don't need faster computers really. Maybe more storage and memory access, ok but most people use their computer to email, Facebook and shop at amazon. There is no technical reason why current personal computer hardware should be useful for as long as a tv.....until the electronics wear out, and mostly should be easily repairable. The industry is just trying to find ways to sell more stuff by constantly changing the specs out from under us. Apple should stop trying to force us to upgrade our computer, most people don't need to. What people want are more convenient access, perhaps tablets, watches, car devices, kitchen and home automation, etc. personally I think we have reached as much computing power as the vast majority of consumers are interested in having. So please Apple, stop deprecating stuff! Make it all work together. Bring us new ways to use more devices in a connected way without deprecating anything. I have no desire to invest money in stuff that will be rendered useless so easily.

    @SteveJobs if Apple stops supporting PCI video cards, rendering the once expensive macpro outdated, then all the hackintoshes will be up the creek without a paddle also. Then you will have to wait until someone builds a thunderbolt capable PCI card or something and hope someone makes a driver for it. Apple is basically going to try to make some critical aspect of their hardware so proprietary in nature that hackintoshes will be left behind for good. Me personally I will switch to windows on that day, but that seems to be the direction Apple wants to go. They think their stuff is so good that everyone will switch to their hardware and total integration solution but I personally think they are having the opposite effect and alienating a lot of people. Especially with the kind of hardware issues these MBP's have had. There is no point buying a more expensive laptop just because it's in an expensive aluminum body when it's doomed to have that kind of problem or be outdated by their very own OS in five years time.
     
  25. Decimotox macrumors 6502a

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    #25
    @Dewdman42 I don't think Apple is forcing anyone to upgrade to anything. Their computers last several years most of the time. Each cycle, they sell new computers to folks who bought Macs 3, 4, 5 years prior and they're beginning to age and slow down because of the technology and software evolution. It's not like the iPhone where it's totally justified to get the latest and greatest every year. New features that really apply to many peoples' daily lives. For a Mac, a 2012 or '13 Mac still does most of the same, if not all, the things as the 2015 models.

    And of course from a business standpoint, they deprecate things as time goes on because the computers themselves depreciate. 2008/2009 technology is so old, even 8 years ago. If you have a computer that old, you should be upgrading. Even if it's to a 2011 or 2012 model only. You can certainly run all the older software, but unless you heavily upgrade an old Mac, there's no point in NOT upgrading. Upgrading an older Mac with the best specs it can handle could be pretty expensive, so it's better to just buy a new computer when you get to that point. In 3 years, the 2010 models will be obsolete, especially the C2D models. It's just the nature of the beast. I don't think we'll ever get to a point where a computer will last 15 years and still be updated and fast.

    Here's a good real-world example: going into college (summer of 2008), I bought my first laptop with grad party money I received. Went out and got a Gateway T-series (not sure the exact model). Loved it and it was fast and great for my needs at the time. Literally in 2 years, it was dead. Hard drive had failed 3 times in those 2 years and then finally the whole computer was just slow. Pretty sure it was running Vista. Was laptop-less for a whole year of college since hey, I was a poor college student. Finally got a laptop in Sept. 2011 going into my senior year. Needed it for all those final papers and stuff. It was an HP Pavilion-g7 series. Pretty good specs - 1.8 Ghz quad core AMD Phenom II with 4 GB ram and 500 GB HDD. 17 inch screen. 5 years later it still works, but for the last 2 years it's been SO sluggish. And it's not because of the HDD. The hardware and software combo Apple issues lasts way longer for their computers than for PCs. I don't think anyone can complain. 5 years is long enough for one computer. It's time for another one after that, haha.
     

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