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WayTools' TextBlade Keyboard to Start Shipping to Test Group Users Next Week
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It's getting toward 01.00 am , maybe we should turn in?
R
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Not sure I did to be honest. Maybe in part, but he still won't answer my questions. It's like he is unable to express and opinon of his own, only a negation of others?
"Challenge" is not the word I used.
I think you may have some valid points buried in your 900+ posts, but your articulation definitely needs help. You may not think you're attacking. It's better to directly confront people and say what's on your mind, rather than sneakily use "oooh," or "you aren't good at this, are you?" which IMO are worse method of attacking, and much more insidious.
Many people have pointed out that what WT has implement is indeed a remote kill switch, but apparently you don't understand nor do you listen. It doesn't take much to implement a remote kill switch. Are you nitpicking that it's a deferred remote kill switch?
Also, you say it's all one code base. Then the non-test units have the same code as the test units, meaning that everyone will have that remote kill switch code built in. But how the hell do you even know there's one build, as opposed to two or three, etc? Have you seen it? Do you have proof you're so fond of readily supplying? No, you don't.
As one user mentioned, you have not used a textblade, touched it, worked on it, or even tested it, yet have written thousands upon thousands of words about, claiming things that even you must know are outlandish (or do you?).
Well, you might be waiting longer than I would hope, though we don't know for sure yet. A week ago the most likely shipping days were Thursday or Friday this week. Not a concrete statement, but Knighton did give those days to me as good possibilities. There was a very unlikely chance it could be earlier, he said, but he didn't expect it. There was also the possibility that their other testing may delay it longer. Later, and I don't remember who reported this (I hear from a number of people - some publicly and some privately), but something was said to the effect that they were still expecting this week, but it could be a "few more days". Which is a little less open-ended, but not definitely restrictive either.
So, Thursday is gone. I would have expected, if it was going out Friday, that they would have posted something tonight. Sometimes they do so VERY late - as late as 4:30 AM California time so still over an hour, but it usually is not that late.
Of course, they may not announce until they actually have sent some out the door so Friday is still a possibility, I guess. But I'm thinking we may be looking at Friday being less likely. I don't know if they even would be working and shipping on a Saturday but, if not, we are into next week.
The real question isn't that there may be another of those delays - though every time it worries me. But whether there will be delay after delay. My view is that that would hurt them more than the earlier delays - because, in spite of a lot of ranting, I think most people accept that problems do come up to prevent regular deliveries. But repeated delays of something that is still in a test phase anyway is going to be a heck of a lot harder for people to accept lasting months!
I also track visits by various WT accounts to their site. Four of them - all who have appeared there at least fairly recently. That hasn't been real encouraging either. Only one has shown up in the past 24 hours (about 6 hours ago), but it isn't the one that really matters. It is usually when "Waytools Team" shows up that something MIGHT get posted, but often not even then. Hasn't been there for 3 days!
Me, I'll be waiting for awhile if necessary. From the beginning I accepted that risk, even to the possibility it never ships and somehow a bankruptcy or something loses my money.
So, there you go, a detail breakdown of a present concern about the WT shipping situation. Just as I sometimes to on their forums.
Ok, you didn't call people liars back on the first page, but you did at some point. And the point I'm trying to make is exaggerations aren't lies. People usually don't mean them to be taken literally. When people say "WT never communicates," they don't expect you to think they mean that literally. They mean WT doesn't communicate enough, and they expect people to understand that "never" is an exaggeration.
ericpeets hasn't claimed they want a meaningful conversation with you. You, on the other hand, say you are correcting people's factual mistakes because you want a rational discussion, am I right? And what I've been trying to say is that keeping a discussion rational takes a lot more than just sticking to facts. If two sides are shouting facts at each other, that isn't a rational discussion.
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I still don't understand the distinction between remote and not remote kill switch, so yeah, that kind of feels like "picking apart" to me.
Thanks.
Good night Rolanbek. I still have a night of coding to do. This forum is left open in my browser so I can exercise my right brain...
Huh? First, the word I used was "challenging" and it was taken directly from what I quoted you saying!
Which makes this later comment from you kind of amusing: "apparently you don't understand nor do you listen".
People have claimed that. I described the difference. But here's the important thing - I also acknowledged, right from the start, that some may feel the difference isn't important. So I then moved on to what was important - that the system in place required no different code build (addressing one of the concerns) and also how the kill switch wasn't an issue after testing anyway. I explained why. The only rebuttal to that wasn't a very meaningful one since it simply said that WT was irrational. Nothing to challenge the points I made.
There are lots of builds. They've been making different builds for the past year. Even the build they had on the day Juli posted the article was newer than what she had. That isn't the issue. The issue is specifically the claim that the kill switch required a different build so that, after testing was done, they have a different build without it. As explained, it does not change. Before giving more on that, let me point out that NO ONE except me expressed any concern that someone made that claim without having seen it, etc! Somehow only the guy who provides the facts gets that thrown at them. And I know how the system works on this because it is one of the things WT posted (you know, the same WT that some like to say never posts any information).
Ah, thanks. This has been niggling me, but I was too sleepy to articulate it properly. Basically, DBK is treating everything WT says as "facts," isn't he? And I'm scratching my head, wondering "wait a minute, is that how things really work?"
Then it might serve to provide an actual example, then we can look at the context - because, yes, some people do lie. The context tells us if the charge is legit.
Well, it beats shouting non-facts.
Well, I went through it the first time I referenced it. And, again, I acknowledge that difference may seem unimportant. Which is why I then covered the two aspects of it that were important. Somehow in all the back and forth, it has been this least important aspect that people keep pointing to in their posts to me. Very strange since it was acknowledge at the time and many times since.
You state in your own argument, while you know your own position you do not know the extent and nature of the program. Without that knowledge you cannot claim this is a fact. Your opinion is that based on your experiences and you believe the statement to be true.
Characterising people how disagree with you as "loons" shows a staggering lack of respect to other forum users.
My only issue is with the word Many. To invalidate the clause “never” you only need to show one example. It would be a mammoth task to assess all the claims made by Waytools that have some form of hedging, or obfuscating language, and tally those against the examples of unequivocal speech.
This argument goes nowhere as the sum of all the knowledge available has too many interpretive sub arguments to make a concise analysis.
This statement also allows the statement "Waytools does not always provide Straight answers to things" to be true.
The content of the NDA was withheld (temporarily) from those not accepted to the program. This created a gradient of information between the in group and the out group with a restriction placed on the in group to maintain that gradient. That is an intent withhold information.
What is further withheld:
- The method of selection from applicants.
- Precise purpose of the program.
- How many hundreds of applicants discovered the program in the time-frame given no push communication Waytools.
- Whether the units are re-manufactured or not.
How many secrets need to be kept before you acknowledge that closed user groups are inherently secretive, it is a property of them existing.
There is no commentary in this post on matter of that withholding commercially sensitive information during external testing and whether that is good or bad. It just needful to keep secret details which influence your IP's value, and your ability to exploit it.
There are at any given moment more than one build Extant. By WT own admission they tend to test new builds at weekends and meet Mondays to decide their next move. They are constantly changing the software build, and testing it.
As Treg users will be linking the “testblade” to their app asynchronously, there is the capability there to be as many build extant as updates with occur within the window of the token set expiry.
The argument itself is meaningless.
There you are, commentary on some of your claims
R
Edit: formatting, Bolded /quotes cause mayhem...
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Nope, not so. When they announce estimates for shipping, I don't consider those "facts". I consider them estimates that they have repeatedly been bad about. When they talk about communication on the forum sometimes not happening because they are focused on the work, I don't buy it because we don't need the extreme detail, pictures, etc, that they sometimes provide. I mean, that's fine IF THEY HAVE THE TIME, but in almost every case they could have written a short paragraph. Like with the shield problem. Lots of detail. All we needed was a statement like, "We are having some rare problems with some shields letting signals leak. We think we found how to fix it, but each needs to be replaced". Short and sweet. They don't do this nearly enough.
But other things, of course I believe what they say. I'm not going through life assuming everything someone says is a lie! If they are in a position to know and there is nothing about it to raise doubt, I'll go with it every time. I even do that with the critics that accuse me of working for WT. When they make other posts that aren't acting that way - maybe post about their background, I assume they are telling the truth.
What WT described made perfect sense. In fact, it wasn't too far off in the effect on the code to something I thought they'd do even before they told us how it actually worked. So I absolutely believe them. I'm not a tin-foil hat guy.
I'm actually not interested in whether you were justified in calling people liars. I just want you to stop treating rhetorical exaggerations, like the "never communicates," as lies.
Not by much. As long as you are shouting at each other, you aren't communicating.
Sorry, which two aspects was that? It must have whizzed past my head.
Here you go:
To which Night Spring said:
If you bother to remember what you said, or just go back a few posts. And I'm glad I amuse you because I find you hilarious as well.
First of all, WT did not post about the remote kill switch. It was buried inside the NDA that was posted by a forum user after MaggieL found a way to dig it out.
Second, you seem to be confused about what you're saying. You're saying the kill switch inside the test unit is the same as the one in the general unit because it's the same build. Are you also saying that the kill switch was implemented from the get go? That's what you're effectively saying, do you know that?
But whatever the case, it begs the question: how the hell do you know? Are you there in the development room with waytools? Did they give you build reports, or diff output, or even tell you anything to that effect?
I don't assume people lie. So I KNOW I don't fit the claim - so the claim is wrong even if I'm the only one. But we also have others from the forum that are not either. So I guess we have a choice - assume they all lie or we can be rational.
But here is another point. Just as you say we don't know them all, NEITHER DID THE ACCUSER. Yet he made the charge. That never seemed to bother you. Hey, maybe you think it was respectful!
I said it wasn't "all that secretive" because it wasn't. I went through examples. So only people in TREG got the NDA. So what? This isn't exactly unheard of, that only people who have to sign one get to see it. But they just had to find something to complain about so they did.
The fact is, we can report our experiences and our communications with WT - you know, the stuff that really matters.
No company needs to say how they select testers - that is just people mad about not being selected or, as with the NDA, just complaining about anything, even when it is normal for companies.
They gave the purpose, though you can play games with "precise" if you just want to complain. They will send us units to see if their latest versions work. If problems are found, they'll try to fix them. They also want ideas we may have for the future. And apparently we may find out about an unreleased product and the TREG group may form a base to test that later.
Companies wouldn't normally tell you how many applicants discover much of anything. Nothing special here.
We do know, at least somewhat, about whether the units are fresh off the assembly line or ones that had the old shields replaced. Apparently some of each. But they are all new either way.
All this has been posted on the forum - either by WT or by TREG testers reporting on their phone conversations with Knighton - that is, those communications we are allowed to talk about according to the NDA. So, not very secretive at all. Just like I said.
No one was claiming that there is only one build, ever. There have been builds for over a year now. The build that Juli had was not the latest at the time her story went up either. The argument about different builds had to do with exactly ONE thing - the claim that WT would have us testing one build (or a series - the point is the same) and it (or they) would all have the kill switch. But then there would be a different build with the kill switch removed - supposedly a terrible thing since that change could have unforeseen repercussions.
And then we find out how the system actually works and, surprise, it means the final test version and shipping version would have the same code.
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You don't really think you are going to get away with that, do you?
You said you didn't use the word "challenge". This was in direct response to a quote of mine where I used the word "challenging". Anyone tracing that back to my actual post will see that I said it in direct response to your quote where you, in fact, said, "challenging".
I think it is darn dishonest of you to now claim it is about a different statement. Unless you just made a mistake. You can always trace it back like I did and see the context flow and acknowledge you were not correct.
You seem to think these things are mutually exclusive. They are not. Yeah, it was in the NDA - and I have no problem with that. Second, WT did post about it later, which is why we all know how it works.
Actually, I'm not saying that at all because, wait for it, I have no way of knowing unless WT tells us. It may have been in all the builds to deal with their original people testing it in case they did something unethical. Or it could have been added to a much later build after they decided to do TREG. So you are the confused one. Again, there have been lots of builds. The only thing that was the issue was a claim that the kill switch would require shipping units to have a different code build than what was tested. We now know that isn't the case.
As for how I know things, mostly I actually listen. To WT, sometimes directly, sometimes to the reports of other TREG members about their conversations. Anyone who has any info at all.
Now, you can go through life assuming everything WT or others say about anything is a lie. Don't see much benefit to that approach. As I said before, if that's how someone feels, they shouldn't be a customer now anyway.
[doublepost=1456489234][/doublepost]Maybe we better focus on this:
Uh, you saw in my post on this I did NOT say the "never communicates" claim was a "lie" - it was certainly very wrong, but I did not call it a lie. So where are you getting this from since I was quite nice about the whole thing.
not interested, nor claimed you did This is pointless prose
yes I acknowledged that.-
No only the claim "all of treg" yadda, yadda. You have not enough information to claim "is not" based on what you know.
No your presentation of yet another false binary, shows limits to your understanding of the possibilities. Assume all statements are true for one moment.
- There are circa 100 waytools employees (unknown source, for the benefit of the doubt)
- there are a comparatively small number of Known forum TREG acceptees. (forum evidence)
- There are hundreds of TREG places (waytools statement)
The statement "Treg is Family and friends" is compatible with the statement "Treg is not only family and friends" which is all you can evidence.
You are being rude. I was not rude to you in this thread. This is an examination of what you claimed.
So you are saying you added a meaningless comparative so as to create an inference.
as did I
I did not say was unusual, in fact I underlined that i was making to comment regarding External group testing protocols
You are responding to me. I do care about justifications of provocation by others.
I read the NDA. My understanding is that you can be pulled without warning for reasons that are not specific.
Did not state they should. Who did you say this for?
Supposition based on your observations and innate experiential bias. Not a Fact.
I do not need your permission, I will discuss what ever i please. I am not complaining I am pointing out that which is not known
Yes I read those thing too. No clear indication of the specificity of the scope, its goals, or methods. Not precise. Not even close. Because all those things are currently secret certainly to the out-group, it is not interesting or relevant if you know any of these things.
Wasted these words as still not my argument.
The withheld information then becomes, which ones are which? spawning: Who has what type? Secrets multiply when the answers are imprecise or worded to be so.
This is opinion based on your willingness to accept withholding that information. Not based on the volume of unknowns and a sound comparative. The sentence become as meaningless as saying a serial killer is not all that "murdery" compared to totalitarian dictators.
neither does my refutation refute only that straw man fallacy you put there
words riffing on your fallacy. Pointless and reductive.
As my argument is, it is almost a certainty that if there is and update post shipping the treg units the asynchronous nature of shipping times work patterns and availability will mean multiple versions of the firmware coexisting in the wild. Invalidating your argument. Even the application of the token at the end of the program creates this issue.
It is not explicitly stated that the unlocked TREG unit will have the same build as the production model and is in fact unlikely due to streamlining redundant code blocks post testing. You have just assumed this.
R
Edit:Spelling, formatting
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What the hell are you talking about? You kept throwing "challenge" to Night Spring, and I thought that was funny, coming from a "challenged" person himself. So, I kept quoting you. Are you able to use grep for this whole discussion, feed the whole thing through something like 'grep "challeng"' and it will show you what's what. Because you'll see that you kept using that word long before I joined the fray.
But wow, this is the only thing you have to resort to? That is quite sad...
Honestly, where did WT or TREG members say that test units and general units have the same build? I may have missed it. But the important thing is, if that's the case, it means what us non-TREG people will receive in the end will have the kill switch code in there too. Can you provide a link, or at least a quote? I'm not being facetious, I'd really like to know where you get this.
WT fessed up to it long after people blew up over it. But as long as they admit to it long after the fact, it's all good? How did that work out for Nixon?
You know, for someone purporting to dislike repetitive arguments, you sure are a fervent practitioner. I like the product, but I dislike the company - which part of that do you not understand? Company != Product, it's possible to respect AND dislike. You tend to lump things into some simple, binary bucket where if you dislike something you have to dislike everything that's related.
And I never said EVERYTHING WT said is a lie, and where do you get "or others say about anything." The way you not only try to put words into people's mouth, but do so by sneakily sticking additional phrases in hopes of boosting your argument is quite insidious. Sorry, but that's the only word I can think of at this time of night. I'm not sure if you're trying to be coy, deceitful or just wildly ignorant.
WT has said some truths. They talked about getting an iPad Pro. It seems they did get one. They said they had a hands-on event. It seems they did have one. But pretty much everything beyond that were either lies, gross exaggerations, wishful thinking, result of massive incompetence and the like. They probably know they're often criticized for that, so they keep repeating that if you don't like it, cancel and get a refund - something which you seem to have taken to heart, since you're parroting it for them.
Thanks, but no thanks. I for one can afford to write off $100. I like peeking into the forum once in a while. It's like watching new, updated episodes of Jerry Springer, and am able to rub elbows with the likes of you, and in the remote chance it ships I have uses for the product.
Oh, and some free tips. Why don't you try losing snide phrases and words like "wait for it...", "Uh, ...", "you aren't good at this, are you?" and passive aggressive rhetorics? That should greatly improve the presentation of your case to, well, whoever you're presenting it to. Me, I don't mind it, but others in the audience may not appreciate it very much. Cheers.
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With over a year delay and after the abuse and lies experienced from waytools, we may finally get our damn keyboards. Some points to remember about these ********ers and the lies they put forth and horrible treatment of their customers:
- Lied about the status of the level of completion and readiness for production;
- Redesigned the internal workings of the device to screw over people who paid expecting a keyboard in Feb 2015
- Constant lies about the shipping date and status of the production and the fact they went back to the ol' drawing board and essentially started from scratch
- Now that it is ready to ship, they decide to throw in yet another step with the treg. This was never ever mentioned in the process and it was constantly told that they would be shipping when the devices are ready, not after this ******** testing
- They treat customers like **** and say "if you don't like it, you can go ahead and request a refund and lose your place in line"
- They do nothing to hold themselves accountable.
Once the textblade finally ships, hopefully bad things happen to the customer service dinks in that moronic company.
- Lied about the status of the level of completion and readiness for production;
- Redesigned the internal workings of the device to screw over people who paid expecting a keyboard in Feb 2015
- Constant lies about the shipping date and status of the production and the fact they went back to the ol' drawing board and essentially started from scratch
- Now that it is ready to ship, they decide to throw in yet another step with the treg. This was never ever mentioned in the process and it was constantly told that they would be shipping when the devices are ready, not after this ******** testing
- They treat customers like **** and say "if you don't like it, you can go ahead and request a refund and lose your place in line"
- They do nothing to hold themselves accountable.
Once the textblade finally ships, hopefully bad things happen to the customer service dinks in that moronic company.
I decided to go back over this entire thread. It's become evident that a side project may be distracting WT from shipping. They've built and launched a message board bot whose mission is to administer a special version of the Voigt-Kampff test to anybody who questions WT's motives, goals, or actions. The irony, of course, is that an automated tool is constantly challenging and refuting posts that are made by humans.
Fortunately, it is apparent that it lacks any glimmer of self awareness so averting any Skynet complications.
You made a statement, which used the word "challenging". I responded based on that statement. You then quoted that reply and then said you didn't use the word "challenge" which, gee, probably was why I didn't use it either! And then, even though you were responding to my quote, which was about your statement about "challenging", you pretend it was really all about some other post???
Give me a break.
It wasn't "long after". And, once again, you keep ignoring the fact that there is zero reason for them to kill off regular shipping units. Because there really isn't a reason for it and good reason not too, both of which I've repeatedly explained. No one has been able to give a good reason they would do it. Heck, this kind of nonsense can be applied to many things. For example, WT or any other company cloud, at any time, put in code in an update that would allow a kill switch and not tell you. They may already have them! Heck, Apple's fight to maintain user security could just be a front to get bad people to use their phones and then Apple gives all the info to authorities - and the authorities keep complaining about Apple blocking them to make people think Apple really isn't doing it. You see, once you just decide to assume someone is dishonest, you can pretty much make up any scenario to attack. Just not rational ones.
LOL! That coming from a guy who makes negative psychological descriptions of me?
BTW, I looked back and see that a lot of the misinformation and gross exaggerations I corrected in my first post were things you had said. Well, at least you are consistent.
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You have a strange definition of "lied".
You don't seem to consider the reasonable possibility that they gave the status they believed to be true, but either couldn't solve a known problem as soon as expected and/or found new problems. New tech - gonna be problems.
Redesigned the working to screw people over? Really? So it wasn't about finding what they felt would be a better device. Someone said, "Let's change it because we want to screw people over". Get a grip.
They can't be wrong about the difficulty of getting everything working, thus missing estimated ship dates? It has to be a "lie"? Besides, what they changed doesn't sound remotely like starting from scratch.
It is almost certain that TREG was a new addition. Frustrating. But not necessarily a bad decision considering the problems they'd found along the way. It certainly doesn't violate the "shipping when ready" statement. This is just a step to see if they are, in fact, ready.
Funny, so many people say they lied. You criticized me for saying they lied. So we all have strange definitions of what a lie is?
Let's see what M-W says:
- 1: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
- 2: to create a false or misleading impression
It's really sad that the vast majority of the people disagree with you, yet you always have to push some outlandish excuse why WT isn't lying. Not going to look and give your exact quote, but this follows along the same lines as you arguing with people what "the end of the week" is. Then you threw in "Oh, there is a holiday on Monday" so maybe Sunday isn't really the end of the week.
I am waiting for you to throw in that this is a leap year when they will most likely fail to ship TREG today.
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Job Openings
Mechanical Engineer
Posted: 02/17/2016
Create the next generation of Mobile accessories
Job Duties
• Responsible for technology development and concept generation to detailed mechanical design, analysis and testing through to mass production ramp.
• Work closely with Electrical, Software and Marketing teams for new products.
• Strong engineering background and familiarity with CAD (Solidworks) to evaluate mechanical designs for mechanical structural integrity, thermal efficiency and material selection.
• Oversee mass production ramp, source parts from domestic and international suppliers.
• Support overseas production team to achieve production ramp schedule.
Requirement: Master's degree in Mechanical/Aerospace Engineering or Computer Engineering. Job in Santa Monica, CA.
Send Resume to jobopps2016@gmail.com.
Yeah, but that argument doesn't help you. It really just reconfirms my point that a lot of people are exaggerating. Because accuracy of words is not determined by how many misuse it!
That also supports my point. You start with at least a possible passable argument. Of course, to me, it would still have to be an INTENTION to create a false or misleading impression. From a previous example, if I say I'll pick you up at 5:00, but I get delayed 30 minutes, one might stretch things and say I create a false or misleading impression. But it would be quite a stretch and it definitely would not be a lie unless I had no intention of picking you up at 5:00 to begin with.
Which brings up the second sentence - that is exactly what you assumed. Once again you don't allow for just being wrong in their estimations because of a problem being harder to solve than expected or new problems coming up (and we know the latter has happened).
On the WT forum, I have posted that it is POSSIBLE that they got themselves stuck into a hole with all these problems and thus might try to put a good face on it to stall for time. Not that I'm saying they did - just a possibility. Not even a particularly evil one unless the idea is to stall until they can do something that lets them cancel the project and keep our money.
Trouble is, no one shows they are outlandish. They do seem to not like being limited to the definition though.
That was about predicting when we may get the announced update. I wasn't justifying the longer period, just pointing out what, from past experience - and common usage - days it could be.
I was clear that Saturday was the "end of the week". You know, how calendars have tended to work for centuries. Then I also said that many people - and possibly WT - actually think of Sunday as the "end" of the week because Monday they go back to work. In fact, we had critics saying the end was Sunday, not just me including that possibility. Some more modern calendars list Monday first because of this, even though it isn't technically correct.
And then, using EXACTLY the same logic, some people may view Tuesday as the start of the week if Monday is a holiday. Just different - and legitimate - perspectives.
So, while I kept saying it really should be Saturday, we shouldn't be surprised if they do it one of the other days.
Leap year has nothing to do with things if they fail today. It is really quite simple. They have ESTIMATED "this week" for shipping. That gives them till Saturday to at least start them out the door. They have also listed "February" (not as precise, you see) in which case, yeah, leap year matters. That would add Monday. But would still miss "this week". But they also said testing could delay it (last report was by a "few days").
I don't like, and have often said so, the caveats they include. Oh, I understand them and, considering things can be delayed because of problems found in testing, I'm not going to say it is wrong. But it is still darn annoying. I'll agree with anyone who says, "They are test units. Even if there are some rare problems, send them to the other testers. As new builds come out, they can be updated by OTA."
Shades of Chris Christie vs. Marco Rubio! Trickflow, I'm going to start calling you "Governor".
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