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WayTools' TextBlade Keyboard to Start Shipping to Test Group Users Next Week
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Like I said, been done. More than once. Step by step. You know this. Yet you pretend not to. When I go over it again, you repeat the same whine as if I didn't. Which is just another reason I don't believe you just made a mistake on your part.
Your intention was to mislead.
Did you see my post?
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...users-next-week.1957232/page-11#post-22615711
If that doesn't help, give it up. You two have been discussing that one word for over a page.
Well, this is interesting and may explain some of why there are so many delays. This was an idea stimulated by another poster on the WT forums pointed out how Android users could not do some of the special things on the keyboard because there is no app for android yet (it is projected to arrive a couple months after the iOS version is finished - which I guess will be around the time either TREG starts or regular shipping starts).
Here's the thing. A lot of people made what would seem to be a reasonable suggestion that WT ship the TB as "good enough" because they could "fix" any other bugs via OTA. Basically that sounds reasonable. Of course, it would depend on how bad the bugs are. I mean, if it keeps getting stuck in numbers mode 25% of the time, that can't be shipped! But, in principle, I think many would think this would have been a good approach.
But if Android users don't have an app and so can't do OTA, this argument falls apart. They could represent most of the buyers. They certain represent a large number! But if they can't access an iOS device, they couldn't do updates.
It is one thing to ship, knowing people can do updates. It is quite different if a large portion of your customers are stuck with a buggy version for many months! And there are still two months to go, minimum, for an Android app.
My point is, this may explain why WT isn't shipping something as "good enough", but are instead forced into waiting until it is really good (not perfect - just better than may otherwise be the standard).
Here's the thing. A lot of people made what would seem to be a reasonable suggestion that WT ship the TB as "good enough" because they could "fix" any other bugs via OTA. Basically that sounds reasonable. Of course, it would depend on how bad the bugs are. I mean, if it keeps getting stuck in numbers mode 25% of the time, that can't be shipped! But, in principle, I think many would think this would have been a good approach.
But if Android users don't have an app and so can't do OTA, this argument falls apart. They could represent most of the buyers. They certain represent a large number! But if they can't access an iOS device, they couldn't do updates.
It is one thing to ship, knowing people can do updates. It is quite different if a large portion of your customers are stuck with a buggy version for many months! And there are still two months to go, minimum, for an Android app.
My point is, this may explain why WT isn't shipping something as "good enough", but are instead forced into waiting until it is really good (not perfect - just better than may otherwise be the standard).
Yes, you're right. And as you said, this thread is pretty much dead. It was just funny to see how easy it was to goad a simpleton to shooting himself in the foot, having him read and re-read the lengthy thread.
He is one truly disturbed individual. Signing off...
BTW: I particularly enjoyed reading your posts. You're clearly articulate and have a logical mind.
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Er.... if this is the reason, why wouldn't they say so?
Also, if I understand correctly, they always said they'll release iOS app first, then the Android version later, correct? But they took orders from Android users too, even though their Android app isn't ready? And then you speculate that the current shipping delay might be due to their needing to first create an Android app?
Can we just stick with facts we know, as you keep insisting when other people speculate?
Thank you for that admission. Because, you see, it reveals that you really never cared about the things you said:
> I genuinely would like to know.
> But just out of curiosity
> I honestly still don't know what you were babbling about.
> Just get the quote and facts then we'll talk.
> I still have no idea what you keep babbling about.
> I'm actually genuinely curious.
> I'm not being facetious, I'd really like to know where you get this.
Summarized:
1. You had no purpose other than to goad. Which you just admitted to, thus making those statement above actually lies. This was understood for a long time - just needed you to keep saying silly things enough until you made the mistake of admitting it.
2. You claim I shot myself in the foot. Funny how you don't actually show how unless you are referring to "having him read and reread...". But that doesn't show any such thing so doesn't work for you anyway.
3. What you actually did was prove that you think having someone actually research, to be sure they get things right, is funny compared to your immature, admitted, tactic of goading. You basically just proved my whole point about how absurd and dishonest some of the critics are. It was obvious for a long time, but nice of you to fess up. Sometimes it takes longer for a person like you to step in it so clearly.
4. I didn't have to keep reading a long thread. I knew which posts applied. I only had to read a handful. Heck, usually only a tiny portion of each post that applied to this matter. Quick and easy.
5. And this is the kind of thing I do anyway. You know, it really isn't much work when the facts are on my side. I actually enjoy the research as a result.
1. Well, I can't answer why they wouldn't specifically say so - but they have repeatedly said it was important to have it working really well before shipping. This may be part of the reason. We all know they often don't explain things as well as they should.
2. Yes, iOS first. And they took Android orders - because it works with Android just like with iOS DEVICES. But until they get the app, they can't access special capabilities or do OTA. Most keyboards I've bought don't have special abilities or OTA updates. They generally have worked just fine though. So no reason not to sell to Android as long as they said the app won't come until later. But a darn good reason to not ship unless the first version is really good. Sort of like saying, "If it works 99.5% of the time and we can do OTA, we'll ship. But if we can't do OTA, we need to raise it to 99.8% of the time. May not sound like much difference, but it would be equivalent to making a typing error because of firmware problems once every 200 letters vs once every 500 letters. Big difference.
3. I'm not saying they can't ship until there is an Android app. We already know the plan is to ship before that is available. My point is that, if Android can't do updates yet, the first version needs to be better than otherwise may be "acceptable" at first.
4. I don't mind speculation. Love to do it. But I avoid using speculation AND ASSUMPTIONS (speculation presented as fact) to attack someone.
Take this case as an example. I'm just pointing out what may have happened. If you look at each part of my argument, I think it makes sense based on what I do know. Doesn't mean I'm right - only that it is a reasonable possibility. Also not saying it is the only factor - no way to tell. I'm also not saying things like WT was stupid for even including Android at first if leaving them out would have allowed earlier shipping. I'm simply speculating NICELY.
I can think of more than one reason it makes sense to do iOS first though. For one thing, it seems iOS users tend to buy more things so, while a smaller total market, possibly a better market to sell to first. And a lot easier to get an app done because you have the vast majority on the latest OS version and fewer total versions. Android is a nightmare in that area. Since the first app is going to be rapidly changing, it would be a tough deal, every time you made a change, you have to also make sure it works on many other popular OS versions.
The above quote is from Juli's article back in July. I think it shows the basic problems with WayTools' approach. There was nothing wrong with the original design, they should have shipped that one and kept the new LCP butterfly design for version 2. When I read the above quote, that raised a giant red flag in my head. Everything that's happened since then are variations on the same theme. They keep adding features, which leads to always having one more thing to fix, which leads to the product never shipping.
Well, the complaint about changing the butterfly design is often heard and it is certainly legitimate speculation. But some keep using it to go further - like if it wasn't for that change, they would have been able to ship. But we really don't know that at all, so it really is just speculation presented as fact. It sure doesn't seem likely that the shield problem, which is a recent issue, came about because of the key change, to give just one example. Nor is it likely to have anything to do with some other specific things WT has mentioned. So when people go that far with the argument, I disagree. Nothing for anyone to get mad about. I just present my case.
We also see a lot of stuff about "scope creep" - keep adding things. Well, yeah, there was some of that months ago. The problem there was that even when there was nothing said that showed it was still happening, people kept saying it was still happening. Eventually something was announced that is said to be "scope creep" - the Jump ability to switch between devices. Well, okay, MAYBE if you look at it a certain way. But it was part of the plan a long time ago so it isn't actually saying, "Here is a new idea so let's put it in". The device was being delayed, for a variety of reasons - some we know about and some are too vague. So let's look at a hypothetical:
They plan to ship in August. Their expected progress on the firmware means that Jump won't happen until September or October, so they announce that it will be available via OTA after the product ships. Fine.
But then they run into various problems that delay shipping for months longer. Meanwhile people working on the firmware are likely working on different parts of it. Whoever is doing the part which would include Jumps gets it done (BTW, WT said it wasn't a big change to the code anyway - my suspicions from writing code is that it is pretty isolated from everything else - sort of like a subroutine). So, they put it in so it is available from the start. I don't have a problem with that, but then, I'm also speculating that this is how it came about. The only thing I know for sure is that it isn't a new idea they suddenly came up with to put in.
So, I would disagree that "everything" has been a variation of the same theme.
Okay, maybe not EVERYTHING. But a lot of it seems to be a variation of the theme. Even things like what you suggested, where maybe the hardware got held up, and in the meanwhile the software people manage to complete the additional feature that was originally planned as a pushed update -- but instead of shipping, somehow they keep tinkering with the firmware and never ship.
Sure, other production problems may have popped up even without the switch to the LCP butterfly. But changing something major like that does vastly increase the chance that problems will happen. Like you say, yes unexpected problems do happen. but there are ways of minimizing the chances of them happening, and seems like WT has a habit of doing the opposite, that is, doing things in ways that increases risk of running into problems.
Maybe so, but I submit that most of these "variations on a theme" are assumed rather than established. When I actually look for examples, they tend to be pretty rare and when I do find them, they often are subject to a specific view - like the Jump thing which wasn't something new, but rather something they didn't think would be ready for the earlier projected shipping dates. I can see their argument but I wouldn't particularly subscribe to it myself.
I don't know what "tinkering" they are doing with the firmware. I do know there have been real issues they needed to fix. I don't consider that to be "tinkering" though I guess the word can be applied. But I think it tends to imply they are doing things they don't need to do (including adding new ideas). But if it is just fixing problems, I sure hope they are doing that!
I'm sure there may be real examples I simply don't recall, but right now, the example I keep seeing coming up is the key change. If that is the only one or maybe 1-2 others, that isn't exactly a habit. The shield change, for example, was a necessary change. Things happen.
DBK. You only know what you have been told by WT.
While you are happy to argue about "whether or not X is a lie" you don't acknowledge that there are elements of communication from WT that have been worthless.
Any communication for them which says "we believe/hope/expect.." does not constitute a claim for the statement that follows. It means that these can be disregarded by all, including WT, for the purposes of clarity.
It is difficult to find statements in WT comms with claims to a specific Data/feature/issue which are not qualified in some way to render them opinion.
It renders most communication WT so lacking in actual content that I wonder how anyone takes any comfort from them.
To illustrate just how empty their bland communications are I have set down their most recent communication, added the minimum defensible claim, spun down and spun up.
So original in Italic, Conveyed meaning normal, Worst case in bold, best in underline
***
Hello All - thanks for your queries, here's some quick info on logistics.
Hello, we received questions, here are some words
You have badgered us into saying something, but we are not going to give answers.
We are exicited at the interest shown so we have rushed to give you some more details
We're testing the TREG firmware release right now and reviewing the results.
We are testing,
We say this because it true, but also not news.
We are so buzzed about the cool testing we are doing, I'd rather be testing than writing this!
We found some narrow points that require attention, and we're working to resolve them.
There are some problems we think we need to do something about, and we are doing something about them.
We are chasing rabbits, we will pursue them until we drop down from exhaustion.
Just a couple more bits nearly done!
We'll be on that tonight and tomorrow as well.
We do work.
We are on a death march
End in site, stay on target!
We're reviewing the data to get more clarity,
We are looking at what we are doing, so we can see what we are doing.
We are not currently clear on what we are doing, maybe the data will help
We are checking all out awesome work just before we ship
but for your visibility - we think it'll likely be a few more days to make sure we're all clear to ship.
We are saying so you can see - We do not think we are ready to ship.
To hold you whining ****s, we will say this and maybe you will **** off for a couple of days.
We nearly made it this week, just a couple more hours work
We'll give you another update with more details after the weekend testing.
We will not make a decision until the Monday Scrum meeting.
We will dribble out that it will be longer on Monday
Just a rubber stamp away from out the door
Thank you.
Need a neutral sign off
**** you
Thank you
***
So knock yourselves out guys but the uncomfortable truth about estimates is that they are usually as reliable as the track record of the persons making the estimates. If you give estimates which are not close to the actual outcomes repeatedly, you next estimate will be as reliable based on the same methodology.
I would say the correlating estimate against notification of completion, very roughly WT blows their estimates by 700% (with an error of 150%). This is based on all estimates excepting product delivery, as this has yet to reach prediction.
I am currently out by 2 weeks (which means my prediction now exceeds my expected error by a couple of days) when predicting the phase length for internal Q/A. WT is currently out by 8 weeks on a the current run of 9 weeks in this process (assuming of course that they go on Monday). I am only using the inability of WT to make a good prediction as a basis to generate mine. This means that they are "reliably wrong" when giving estimates.
If this drags on much longer I when I calculate future reality estimates based on WT estimates I will be giving significantly bigger coefficients.
If they ask for "a couple of days" expect to give them between 10 and 16 days. (based on their previous performance)
***
Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding... All our times have come..
R
While you are happy to argue about "whether or not X is a lie" you don't acknowledge that there are elements of communication from WT that have been worthless.
Any communication for them which says "we believe/hope/expect.." does not constitute a claim for the statement that follows. It means that these can be disregarded by all, including WT, for the purposes of clarity.
It is difficult to find statements in WT comms with claims to a specific Data/feature/issue which are not qualified in some way to render them opinion.
It renders most communication WT so lacking in actual content that I wonder how anyone takes any comfort from them.
To illustrate just how empty their bland communications are I have set down their most recent communication, added the minimum defensible claim, spun down and spun up.
So original in Italic, Conveyed meaning normal, Worst case in bold, best in underline
***
Hello All - thanks for your queries, here's some quick info on logistics.
Hello, we received questions, here are some words
You have badgered us into saying something, but we are not going to give answers.
We are exicited at the interest shown so we have rushed to give you some more details
We're testing the TREG firmware release right now and reviewing the results.
We are testing,
We say this because it true, but also not news.
We are so buzzed about the cool testing we are doing, I'd rather be testing than writing this!
We found some narrow points that require attention, and we're working to resolve them.
There are some problems we think we need to do something about, and we are doing something about them.
We are chasing rabbits, we will pursue them until we drop down from exhaustion.
Just a couple more bits nearly done!
We'll be on that tonight and tomorrow as well.
We do work.
We are on a death march
End in site, stay on target!
We're reviewing the data to get more clarity,
We are looking at what we are doing, so we can see what we are doing.
We are not currently clear on what we are doing, maybe the data will help
We are checking all out awesome work just before we ship
but for your visibility - we think it'll likely be a few more days to make sure we're all clear to ship.
We are saying so you can see - We do not think we are ready to ship.
To hold you whining ****s, we will say this and maybe you will **** off for a couple of days.
We nearly made it this week, just a couple more hours work
We'll give you another update with more details after the weekend testing.
We will not make a decision until the Monday Scrum meeting.
We will dribble out that it will be longer on Monday
Just a rubber stamp away from out the door
Thank you.
Need a neutral sign off
**** you
Thank you
***
So knock yourselves out guys but the uncomfortable truth about estimates is that they are usually as reliable as the track record of the persons making the estimates. If you give estimates which are not close to the actual outcomes repeatedly, you next estimate will be as reliable based on the same methodology.
I would say the correlating estimate against notification of completion, very roughly WT blows their estimates by 700% (with an error of 150%). This is based on all estimates excepting product delivery, as this has yet to reach prediction.
I am currently out by 2 weeks (which means my prediction now exceeds my expected error by a couple of days) when predicting the phase length for internal Q/A. WT is currently out by 8 weeks on a the current run of 9 weeks in this process (assuming of course that they go on Monday). I am only using the inability of WT to make a good prediction as a basis to generate mine. This means that they are "reliably wrong" when giving estimates.
If this drags on much longer I when I calculate future reality estimates based on WT estimates I will be giving significantly bigger coefficients.
If they ask for "a couple of days" expect to give them between 10 and 16 days. (based on their previous performance)
***
Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding... All our times have come..
R
I pay attention to what everyone says.
False. For example, I've pointed out that they give some responses that have no real value, like when they keep saying how great it is. Really doesn't matter to any complaint made about delays or lack of communication.
The problem has not been much about all those things, but rather delays without more information or the "qualifiers". Trouble is, that doesn't make the qualifiers inappropriate. We can't really tell. After all, if you are testing something and expect to be done by "X" date, obviously the results of the testing can make that expectation wrong.
As confirmation of my point that this is almost all about delays and communication, I would point to your extensive examples - none of which were about features or something. All were about how they presented estimates, leaving them an excuse for missing the estimate. Which, I've said, is a problem.
Did anyone read the Tony Fadell interview?
http://venturebeat.com/2016/02/28/h...ipod-iphone-and-nest-became-a-tech-visionary/
The parts about General Magic seem very relevant to the WayTools situation.
http://venturebeat.com/2016/02/28/h...ipod-iphone-and-nest-became-a-tech-visionary/
The parts about General Magic seem very relevant to the WayTools situation.
Only to argue for arguments sake. In fact Waytools etc is secondary to the arguing.
For example the entirety of the last "communication" was worthless. There is no information that couldn't be guessed on the bases of reading previous "communications" and no obligations excepting a communication after Monday. 20170101 is after Monday as is the Heat death of the Universe.
As a point I am hard pushed to find anything but puff and nonsense in their entire output. Where they events have ever actually panned out in line with anything they have said is at P 0.2 which is not experimentally significant. Based on a textual analysis of their corpus of output and the verifiable and, quite generously I thought, the quasi-verifiable events.
I think that In light of that any effort to read any meaning into their communication is as useful as disembowelling a goat and looking for portents.
Which is the entire point of may previous post.
It is clear from the statement above you have not had experience in this area.
My extensive examples are a single post from them. They are not cherry-picked or filtered to support my argument they are simply the most current information provided by WT.
You miss the point entirely, a tech company that does not understand the nature or the extent of the work they have undertaken is doomed.
Your rather lengthy diatribe across 2 websites attempts to paint WT as failing to communicate. The question that people have is: "Are they failing to communicate because they have no idea what is going on with their project, or is it because they are misleading the public?"
Therein lays the frustration and uncertainty. The fact the only remedy offered buy WT is to tell you to take your money and go if you don't like it just adds to the sense of irritation.
You can and will respond ad nauseum, play the victim and engage in the weird passive aggressive posting you have been utilising up until now. A style which enables you to employ the fallacy fallacy and the sharpshooter fallacy coupled with many examples of straw man tactics you use to belabour your rather shallow points. I for one do not care what you say, post or do with the rest of your life as I have no interest in it.
You Sir are wasting what precious time you have left on this earth picking fights with strangers half a planet away to the benefit of a company that does not value you or your efforts.
Have a nice rest of your life.
R
Dabigkahuna appears to have over 40 hours per week to defend/champion a bunch of liars.
There are 3 reasonable alternatives
1) paid to do so
Hopefully not as way tools wouldn't be getting their money worth by someone to stupid to post such volume of shot from the same account
2) Directly associated with the company or its ownership I some way... Good likelihood.
3) Mentally ill ... Again reasonably likely.
At this point it would be unreasonable to expect anyone to associate their name or character with way tools. There is plenty of risk a day absolutely no upside without either a hidden financial or personal benefit.
There are 3 reasonable alternatives
1) paid to do so
Hopefully not as way tools wouldn't be getting their money worth by someone to stupid to post such volume of shot from the same account
2) Directly associated with the company or its ownership I some way... Good likelihood.
3) Mentally ill ... Again reasonably likely.
At this point it would be unreasonable to expect anyone to associate their name or character with way tools. There is plenty of risk a day absolutely no upside without either a hidden financial or personal benefit.
Oh, I have more than that - I'm retired.
But whether they are "liars" or not is your opinion.
1. I'm not paid to defend them. You aren't even right about the "defense" part since I also criticize them for those things which are legitimate. I just don't make stuff up, or wildly exaggerate, or present assumptions as fact.
2. Only "direct" association is that I ordered their product about a year ago.
3. Strange, you are at least the third person to find a need to play psychologist. Seems to be a natural tendency when people can't argue about things on merit.
Then it is a darn good thing I don't post for those reasons! It really is quite simple, but everyone keeps ignoring it, no matter how many times I explain it:
I don't care for the "this is the internet, what do you expect" excuse for bogus attacks on people, companies, whatever. I know I'm the exception in trying to take a public stand against it. Yeah, I'm only one person but, as the saying goes, I am one person and I will speak out on it.
While the last half dozen pages of comments are pretty much unreadable (no offense to anyone in particular, but its a vortex of loathing in there), I would just like to point out that tomorrow will be two weeks since this article posted, and still no TextBlades in sight.
Whatever Juli's precise reasons were for decided to quit her TextBlade reporting, she hasn't been missing out on much. Nothing to report. No TextBlades. Just the same horizon filled with unfulfilled promises from WayTools.
What a shame.
Whatever Juli's precise reasons were for decided to quit her TextBlade reporting, she hasn't been missing out on much. Nothing to report. No TextBlades. Just the same horizon filled with unfulfilled promises from WayTools.
What a shame.
I think you miss the point. If Juli still had her TextBlade to try, SHE would be able to provide more information to US. Whether someone else get's sent test units or not or whether regular orders are shipped or not, that would change that she had one and could test it out.
That's actually a bigger loss every day that no other TBs are sent out.
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