WayTools' TextBlade Keyboard to Start Shipping to Test Group Users Next Week

[dabigkahuna]

No, September is pure fantasy.

Since I'm pretty sure you haven't traveled here from the future, you are simply confusing your opinion with fact.

You see, I've watched this argument for over a year. Every month someone will declare that it definitely won't ship the following month and the reasoning is always the same - that they failed to do so in the past.

Well, if that is the argument, then it essentially means it will never ship just because it hasn't shipped in the past. It is declared this month that it will take at least two more months. And then next month, since it still wouldn't have shipped (assuming you are right), then it is once again declared to be at least 2 months away. Same thing for the following month.

It's like the song: "tomorrow, you're always a day away".

None of the problems that WT has talked about is at the 1 in 10 range.

May not. Or maybe any ONE of them doesn't, but in combination they are. But I remind you that you brought in the 90% as being acceptable for shipping, not me.

Often they are user errors that require hard-restarts or re-installing the app or talking to the app developer. The apps are usually just fine. You're just playing the anecdotal case vs. the statistical case. You will never have 100% of users happy with anything. This is a weak argument.

Well, some of them say they have restarted, reinstalled, etc. My point was just that even with a great app, some people have problems - and they blame the app. I have no doubt that WT knows they'll be some of that. But if you allow 10% problems on top of those unavoidable ones, that's a LOT. Also, almost all we have for now are anecdotal info - none of us is seeing the stuff WT sees. Finally, I never said 100%. In fact, I pointed out that those kinds of problems are UNAVOIDABLE. Whether WT should ship if it is 1% may be arguable. But you covered 10 times that amount!

But even 1% is up to WT, balancing the pluses and minuses of doing so.

 

[redshifted]

Since I'm pretty sure you haven't traveled here from the future, you are simply confusing your opinion with fact.

You see, I've watched this argument for over a year. Every month someone will declare that it definitely won't ship the following month and the reasoning is always the same - that they failed to do so in the past.

Well, if that is the argument, then it essentially means it will never ship just because it hasn't shipped in the past. It is declared this month that it will take at least two more months. And then next month, since it still wouldn't have shipped (assuming you are right), then it is once again declared to be at least 2 months away. Same thing for the following month.

It's like the song: "tomorrow, you're always a day away".



May not. Or maybe any ONE of them doesn't, but in combination they are. But I remind you that you brought in the 90% as being acceptable for shipping, not me.



Well, some of them say they have restarted, reinstalled, etc. My point was just that even with a great app, some people have problems - and they blame the app. I have no doubt that WT knows they'll be some of that. But if you allow 10% problems on top of those unavoidable ones, that's a LOT. Also, almost all we have for now are anecdotal info - none of us is seeing the stuff WT sees. Finally, I never said 100%. In fact, I pointed out that those kinds of problems are UNAVOIDABLE. Whether WT should ship if it is 1% may be arguable. But you covered 10 times that amount!

But even 1% is up to WT, balancing the pluses and minuses of doing so.

I can't understand why you're so invested in defending WT. They're not shipping to paid customers from a year and a half ago now. I've been watching this longer than you apparently. It's been since 03/2015 for me. Every month they don't ship makes it seem more absurd. Either it's a viable product with a hard ship date or it's not. When will it be long enough for you to think it's too long to wait? My thinking is two years. Maybe you don't get this because you've had one to play with for a few months.

Arguing about percentages is a waste of time when only WT knows the real numbers involved. Are there real problems gating shipping or not?

No one needs a time machine to see the pattern of how they continue to gate shipping. They're not shipping in September because their process of manufacturing testing and evaluation and product redesign, product rework and product retesting and shipment to TREGers and evaluation and feedback and evaluation all take much longer than this. It's not opinion when it's borne out by facts, data and experience. It's your opinion that it will magically fly off the shelves to customers delivered by unicorns in September. Folks are tired of this.

NOT Typed on a TextBlade

 

[dabigkahuna]

I can't understand why you're so invested in defending WT.

I limit my criticisms to where they are warranted and try not to extend them any further than that.

I've been watching this longer than you apparently. It's been since 03/2015 for me.

Why would that be "apparent"? My order goes back as far as yours. It has nothing to do with the frustration of delays. Not now and not back before we ever heard of TREG and I made the same arguments.

Either it's a viable product with a hard ship date or it's not.

That isn't an either/or statement. Because a product can be quite viable but not yet have a hard ship date.

Arguing about percentages is a waste of time when only WT knows the real numbers involved.

Which is a point I've made. I was just responding to your comment about even at 10% rate of them having problems, they should ship. I don't agree with that at all!

They're not shipping in September because

Well, that at least contains reasons better than the usual claim of them not shipping before. But, even so, some things may not be what you expect. For example, I wouldn't be surprised if they include Treg testing of the PCB board changes. OTOH, they may not be. Because they did make a comment someplace that the testing of that particular issue was better done in house. Which also makes sense. After all, they aren't testing the basic design - they are testing whether or not some part of the assembly is over stressing a part. They can set up much more efficient testing of that in house. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if they do both. But, if they don't, then that would cut a notable amount of time off any estimate.

So, until I know they will include TREG testing of this, I still say September is possible. But nothing more than that.

 

[henry2]

Here my biggest complaint about it I paid a product and in. The email I got from them they would been shipping my product that I bought from them in late June
I order on April 23 2016 so June rolls around no textblade July August time and again no textblade Beening shipped to me other customer that have order them
Now are we going see them before 2017 or is there going to be another problem that sea to have to solve again

 

[dabigkahuna]

No way to tell if more problems will come up. I can tell you that a lot of issues were fixed - and generally pretty quickly after I and other testers reported them - especially the firmware issues.

The tricky part is how good does it have to be for shipping to begin. For me, I love it. I don't know of any tester who does not. Even before they fixed some things that caused me problems (creating typing errors), I still preferred the TB. But that might not be the case for the average customer. I sometimes get bad streaks on my typing. I don't think it is the TB making the errors. I think it is me, still adjusting. And partly age as, from time to time, my fingers just don't seem to quite do what I want! During those times, I'll find myself doing a lot of pressing of the delete key!

But on a regular keyboard, I was doing better than my average whenever I got over 60 wpm at 97% accuracy. Now, with the TB, over 60 is normal and I often get over 70 - even over 80 on rare occasions. And I'm still at 97% at least. Often over 98 or even 99%. Even when I get kinda sloppy, I'm still usually around 60 and still pretty accurate with few obvious exceptions.

So they make a business decision on when they think it is ready. Might be the best decision. Might not be. I can certainly see their point that such a device needs to be really solid before shipping. They may be wrong.

 

[redshifted]

I limit my criticisms to where they are warranted and try not to extend them any further than that.

il I know they will include TREG testing of this, I still say September is possible. But nothing more than that.

The TextBlade product launch will be a case study for how not to launch a new product.
When September ends and I still don't have mine, I'll be thinking of you.
Enjoy your TextBlade.

NOT Typed on a TextBlade

 

[Night Spring]

For me, I love it. I don't know of any tester who does not. Even before they fixed some things that caused me problems (creating typing errors), I still preferred the TB. But that might not be the case for the average customer.

To me, that sounds good enough to ship. I mean, what "average customer"? People who order a new product know that it's a new product and they are essentially beta testing new technology.

Yes, it's a business decision, but it's my opinion that WayTools is making a bad business decision, and I'm entitled to my opinion.

 

[dabigkahuna]

The TextBlade product launch will be a case study for how not to launch a new product.

Of course, you won't see what would have happened if they had shipped too soon.

The TextBlade product launch will be a case study for how not to launch a new product.

Well, I guess you could post, "I told you so", but I'm not saying they will ship in September. Only that it is possible. We have a lot of Treg testers who are in the business and, while they don't know whether it will make it that month, they also haven't been saying they don't think it is possible.
[doublepost=1471380179][/doublepost]

To me, that sounds good enough to ship. I mean, what "average customer"? People who order a new product know that it's a new product and they are essentially beta testing new technology.

I think most people ordering will expect it to not have more issues than a regular keyboard and do NOT look at it as being a beta tester. WT clearly feels this has to be really good out of the gate to minimize bad negative reviews since it is such a new concept. I don't think they are looking at it as being a niche product, but see it as possibly becoming a new standard for keyboard design. That's a tough battle, to overcome a well-establish standard. So they want it to start out really well.

May not be the best decision. But the same applies to all the alternatives.

 

[redshifted]

Of course, you won't see what would have happened if they had shipped too soon.



Well, I guess you could post, "I told you so", but I'm not saying they will ship in September. Only that it is possible. We have a lot of Treg testers who are in the business and, while they don't know whether it will make it that month, they also haven't been saying they don't think it is possible.
[doublepost=1471380179][/doublepost]

I think most people ordering will expect it to not have more issues than a regular keyboard and do NOT look at it as being a beta tester. WT clearly feels this has to be really good out of the gate to minimize bad negative reviews since it is such a new concept. I don't think they are looking at it as being a niche product, but see it as possibly becoming a new standard for keyboard design. That's a tough battle, to overcome a well-establish standard. So they want it to start out really well.

May not be the best decision. But the same applies to all the alternatives.

"I told you so" is for idiots. Not having one (despite your inane prognostications) after a year and a half is the point. Your constantly posting that it will be next month is the problem. It won't be September and it won't likely be October either. How do I know this? I checked my order status and read through all the WT blather about their incredible engineering to date. Yes, it's a complicated product - but if customers never get one, who cares?

If you actually read and try to understand this stuff from WT, you would know that they're still evaluating various hardware fixes through TREGers. Some have one version of hardware and some have others. This means that they're still in the data collection phase of hardware rev testing. They're going to look at that data after a "few weeks" of use and decide which way to go vis-a-vis the hardware fixes they're testing. This will then spiral out into manufacturing test validation runs and more data collection. The earliest they're going to get out of this loop of testing, data analysis, production tweaks and validation is October.

Enjoy your TextBlade!

Still NOT typed on a TextBlade

 

[dabigkahuna]

despite your inane prognostications

What prognostication? I've said what is POSSIBLE, not what will be. I've pointed that out more than once.

Your constantly posting that it will be next month is the problem.

When did I say it will be next month? Again, I've only disagreed with your insistence that it CAN'T be next month, not that it WILL be.

Which brings us to this:

If you actually read and try to understand this stuff from WT

Considering how you have gotten the most basic stuff about what I've said completely wrong, maybe it isn't me with the problem with understanding.

they're still evaluating various hardware fixes through TREGers. Some have one version of hardware and some have others. This means that they're still in the data collection phase of hardware rev testing. They're going to look at that data after a "few weeks" of use and decide which way to go vis-a-vis the hardware fixes they're testing. This will then spiral out into manufacturing test validation runs and more data collection.

Possible. Certainly we have different hardware versions - though, as it happens, no one has the absolute latest. I know the new keycaps have not been sent out. And none of those which are constructed using a technique the eliminates stressing the PCB.

But, as I told you before, they have also said (not everything is on the status page, btw) that the testing for this is best done in house. And as I've also said that doesn't mean it won't ALSO involve TREG testing, but it might not.

After all, they aren't testing the basic design because that hasn't been shown to be the issue. Construction of it has been. So if they eliminate the stress and normal usage doesn't create that kind of stress, why would they have to do extensive testing? The only reason is what they've already said - that it is a relatively rare, intermittent problem. But not one that necessarily demands TREG testers.

So, all we KNOW is that it may take several weeks for them to see if they can use some of the batches they already made or not. If they can, then that speeds up shipping since they'll have some existing inventory. If not, then the question is how fast can they produce all new PCBs. I have no idea. I do know that they said they can produce "many thousands" of complete keycap sets a day. This may be slower. Or not. Sure wish they'd say something about that - and I've asked.

You see, while your scenario is possible, so is this one:

They spend several weeks checking the existing inventory. Meanwhile, they churn out more units using their new stress free approach. Since, as long as they avoid excessive stress, they already know the design works, they don't do TREG testing on it.

During those few weeks in August, they are also polishing smaller issues with firmware. That leaves them with all of September to build up inventory for shipping. How many do they have to build up before starting? I mean, they could just send out the first thousand. Or they may want to accumulate tens of thousands before actually starting. Don't know.

And, yep, they may fine new problems in hardware or firmware for the next 6 months. Which is why I don't prognosticate but just point out what is possible based on the info we have at any given time.

 

[Night Spring]

What prognostication? I've said what is POSSIBLE, not what will be. I've pointed that out more than once.

When did I say it will be next month? Again, I've only disagreed with your insistence that it CAN'T be next month, not that it WILL be.

And it is possible that I could win the lottery.

Would you at least agree that it is unlikely that TextBlade will ship in September?

 

[dabigkahuna]

Oh, I won't say "unlikely" because I simply don't know enough. WT tends not to want to provide some details I keep trying to pry out of them! But I will say I certainly won't be surprised if they don't ship then. How's that?

As for the lottery comparison, it's true, if you bought a ticket for a lottery that occurs in September, you could win. It would certainly be true that you shouldn't expect to win - but the same could be said for the people who, in fact, do end up winning it.

And I don't think the odds of shipping is as low as winning the lottery.

 

[Night Spring]

But I will say I certainly won't be surprised if they don't ship then. How's that?

And I don't think the odds of shipping is as low as winning the lottery.

Well, I'd say I'd be surprised if they do ship in September. The possibility is not as low as winning the lottery, but rather unlikely. You say we don't know enough to know how likely it is, but it's just common sense that best case scenarios don't often happen.

 

[redshifted]

I limit my criticisms to where they are warranted and try not to extend them any further than that.



Why would that be "apparent"? My order goes back as far as yours. It has nothing to do with the frustration of delays. Not now and not back before we ever heard of TREG and I made the same arguments.



That isn't an either/or statement. Because a product can be quite viable but not yet have a hard ship date.



Which is a point I've made. I was just responding to your comment about even at 10% rate of them having problems, they should ship. I don't agree with that at all!



Well, that at least contains reasons better than the usual claim of them not shipping before. But, even so, some things may not be what you expect. For example, I wouldn't be surprised if they include Treg testing of the PCB board changes. OTOH, they may not be. Because they did make a comment someplace that the testing of that particular issue was better done in house. Which also makes sense. After all, they aren't testing the basic design - they are testing whether or not some part of the assembly is over stressing a part. They can set up much more efficient testing of that in house. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if they do both. But, if they don't, then that would cut a notable amount of time off any estimate.

So, until I know they will include TREG testing of this, I still say September is possible. But nothing more than that.

Your usual waffling and overly optimistic estimates and reading of WT's verbiage are tedious.

Quantum theory suggests that there is a chance that enough atoms in your chair will resonate coherently to launch you into the air. It's certainly possible, but as there aren't any documented instances of spontaneous ejector seat incidents, it's not happening. This is akin to WT shipping in September.

Enjoy your TextBlade!
Still NOT Typed on a TextBlade

 

[dabigkahuna]

Your usual waffling and overly optimistic estimates and reading of WT's verbiage are tedious.

Strange, you keep up the crap about me making estimates when, in fact, I only referred to POSSIBILITIES on when shipping COULD happen. I've been quite clear that it doesn't mean it will.

We get a lot of comments about what is the "earliest" they could ship. That's what I address. And, yep, the "earliest" would be if no new problems are found, etc. I've given examples of how the "earliest" might not happen.

Yet here we are, yet again, with you acting like I'm claiming when it will ship rather than what I actually say.

but as there aren't any documented instances of spontaneous ejector seat incidents, it's not happening. This is akin to WT shipping in September.

Talk about being tedious! You actually give the same odds to WT shipping as to having a spontaneous ejector seat???

Weird.

The difference between Night Spring's last post and yours is noteworthy. She doubts it will ship in September. I have no problem with that belief. This is quite different from ruling something out when there isn't enough information to justify doing so.

 

[redshifted]

Strange, you keep up the crap about me making estimates when, in fact, I only referred to POSSIBILITIES on when shipping COULD happen. I've been quite clear that it doesn't mean it will.

We get a lot of comments about what is the "earliest" they could ship. That's what I address. And, yep, the "earliest" would be if no new problems are found, etc. I've given examples of how the "earliest" might not happen.

Yet here we are, yet again, with you acting like I'm claiming when it will ship rather than what I actually say.



Talk about being tedious! You actually give the same odds to WT shipping as to having a spontaneous ejector seat???

Weird.

The difference between Night Spring's last post and yours is noteworthy. She doubts it will ship in September. I have no problem with that belief. This is quite different from ruling something out when there isn't enough information to justify doing so.

That TextBlade you have is awesome! Your ability to type a lot of stuff is impressive. "Earliest" is tomorrow. After that, we can entertain realistic possibilities. Still Not September.

Enjoy your TextBlade!
Still NOT Typed on a TextBlade

 

[dabigkahuna]

"Earliest" is tomorrow.

Ah, the old exaggerated argument. No, tomorrow is not the earliest based on information we actually have:

WT has said they'll be testing for several weeks.

That alone rules out "tomorrow". But there are other things. Such as their statement long ago that before shipping they'll be sending out emails for people to confirm what they want. One of the reasons for this is because, at the time, there was a strong possibility that they wouldn't have all the keycap layouts - some maybe some people would prefer getting qwerty instead of what they ordered rather than wait longer.

Now, that one MAY no longer apply. It is possible, even with the new keycap designs being produced recently, that they'll have plenty of all the different layouts. But they may not. And they may do it for other reasons anyway. In any case, they never said they weren't going to do it anymore.

Clearly that process would take some number of days.

But, really, I only need to first example to show that you aren't basing your statement on what info we have.

 

[redshifted]

Ah, the old exaggerated argument. No, tomorrow is not the earliest based on information we actually have:

WT has said they'll be testing for several weeks.

That alone rules out "tomorrow". But there are other things. Such as their statement long ago that before shipping they'll be sending out emails for people to confirm what they want. One of the reasons for this is because, at the time, there was a strong possibility that they wouldn't have all the keycap layouts - some maybe some people would prefer getting qwerty instead of what they ordered rather than wait longer.

Now, that one MAY no longer apply. It is possible, even with the new keycap designs being produced recently, that they'll have plenty of all the different layouts. But they may not. And they may do it for other reasons anyway. In any case, they never said they weren't going to do it anymore.

Clearly that process would take some number of days.

But, really, I only need to first example to show that you aren't basing your statement on what info we have.

Awesome typing speed!!!

Enjoy your TextBlade!
Still NOT Typed on a TextBlade

 

[dabigkahuna]

Awesome typing speed!!!

Pretty sure you can't actually tell from a post since even a one minute delay from your post to mine would result in a very erroneous estimate of speed!

But, since you are interested, with the TextBlade I can typically score over 60 wpm at 98% accuracy or better. Often over 70 and sometimes over 80.

Which is faster than my typing on my Apple wireless keyboard where over 60 was unusual.

 

[redshifted]

Pretty sure you can't actually tell from a post since even a one minute delay from your post to mine would result in a very erroneous estimate of speed!

But, since you are interested, with the TextBlade I can typically score over 60 wpm at 98% accuracy or better. Often over 70 and sometimes over 80.

Which is faster than my typing on my Apple wireless keyboard where over 60 was unusual.

Awesome typing speed!!!

Enjoy your TextBlade!
Still NOT Typed on a TextBlade

If you're on the spectrum, then I'm out, and I sincerely apologize.

 

[dabigkahuna]

WayTools posted a little bit of information.

They said the PCB flex issue was "the gating issue". When I pursued that, asking whether that meant it was the ONLY gating issue or just the biggest one, they responded, explaining that the use of the term has to do with what determines the release schedule - thus the time to correct that issue will take longer than anything else. So I guess they also have some smaller issues as well. I'm trying to get some more clarification.

They said they would post more on Tuesday (don't know if that mean their usual late Monday night (that would be typically as late as 3:30 AM Tuesday morning or if it is late Tuesday night (thus Wednesday morning).

 

[dabigkahuna]

Well, you won't like this, but in an update a little while ago, WT said the problems they had with the PCB boards created by too much flexing during assembly (they are supposed to be able to flex a little in normal use), is so intermittent that they feel they can't risk the ones they already made and are going to replace all of them. They expect to get the parts, assemble a bunch and test during Sept (not clear if that means ALL the in-house testing can be done in that month or if only the testing till have begun). Then, if they are satisfied, they can produce them for shipping, but I have no idea how many they can make in a day. Also don't know if their in-house testing will be followed by some treg testing or not. In any case, they are using a broader estimate now - 4th quarter.

 

[jeremy3721]

Cancel your orders folks before you lose your money. I can't believe anyone still believes they are going to come through. A "gating" issue, please.

 

[KaliYoni]

I predict that sometime in the next few months, probably in the waning days of “4th quarter”, WT will announce something like this:


“We are humbled and honored to share with you this breaking news about the TextBlade.

Following in the sacred footsteps of groundbreaking inventors like William Shockley and legendary researchers such as Rosalind Franklin, we are proud to announce a major development. We have decided to completely redefine the TextBlade’s function, internal design, and form factor.

As with all giant leaps forward for mankind, this will require us to clarify the beginning ship date to Q4 2018 at the earliest. But those who are truly the crazy ones and the creative ones will appreciate and treasure the lightest, thinnest, best featured SELFIE STICK available to cell phone users ever!

Remember, innovation is 99% inspiration and 1% perspiration.”


The sad reality, though, is that WT will keep stringing people along and, worst of all, taking money for new orders unless enough people demand refunds for their credit card processor to pull the plug on this ridiculous multi-year charade.

Kudos to MacRumors for deciding to stop playing along.

 

[KaliYoni]

Same scam, different product! Human nature remains constant...

----------
The wines were being offered on “pre-arrival,” defined on the company’s website as “wines we have purchased (typically abroad) that have not yet arrived. Depending on the particular wine, the arrival time is typically 6+ months to over two years.”

In all, it added up to 642 bottles and $420,820.53. Over the next three years, despite receiving only one magnum, he bought an additional 949 bottles, bringing his total to $981,642.

But by the summer of 2015, with a single bottle to show for his almost $1 million, Hui brought a lawsuit against Premier Cru in a San Francisco federal court for fraud and misrepresentation that would lead to one of the largest U.S. indictments for wine wire-fraud and Fox facing a prison sentence.

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-premier-cru-john-fox/