WayTools' TextBlade Keyboard to Start Shipping to Test Group Users Next Week

[dabigkahuna]

Returning from yet another negative ad to actual useful information, this is how part of the TREG process works. The updace Wednesday on the firmware went out to certain people who reported the same problem to first see what they experienced. So far that problem seems to have been fixed, but as occasionally happens, there was an unrelated glitch found. Could be caused by anything, including a flawed upload. In this case, those who got the update found that the "forward delete" started working like a regular delete.

We immediately reported it and had a corrected update yesterday. Original problems still seem fixed as is the glitch. No big deal - though I suspect someone, can't imagine who, will try. Spinning anything negative is their goal.

For example, another poster wanted me to try to use my influence on WT. I pointed out that while I have some influence, I think, it is VERY limited. So what comment do we get from people with an agenda? That I was guilty of self-promotion. Remember, anything about me to disrupt discussion of the product or testing, etc and to spin anything they can. It's their whole lives over on reddit. Check it out to be amused - or saddened.

 

[dabigkahuna]

I mentioned that there were two battery issues - one minor, where the warning lights and beep often didn't work (especially the beep). But I didn't go over the more serious issue because I was following my policy of seeing if WT would be able to promptly fix something first. I can only test this when the battery hits those warning levels (20,10 and 5%).

As I said, it was a serious issue, though not crippling. A number of times when it hit those warning levels, it would shut down! No problem restarting it and it would then be fine until at least the next warning level, but clearly this is something that needs to properly work. Well, the update seems to have solved it.

 

[jeremy3721]

I believe this is all crap. This will be my last post as I'm unsubscribing from the thread. I still recommend that nobody give this company any money if they are expecting a working product anytime soon. If any of this was real I suspect we'd be seeing photos and video of a working test unit posted. I'm not interested in the excuses of why they have not been.

 

[dabigkahuna]

If any of this was real I suspect we'd be seeing photos and video of a working test unit posted.

There were videos and photos from way back in March of last year. Granted, there have been plenty of things that needed improving since then, but that alone showed the device basically worked.

Or is in videos from treg testers you require? I know at least one of those was done, thought I don't know exactly where it was so don't know if I can find it easily now.

Okay, I made a really short video of me typing part of this post on my iphone - but I can't seem to include it in this message. It's an MOV file so I guess that is the problem.

 

[Rolanbek]

I think Wout put something on Youtube more recently. He also showed off a TREG unit at a conference or Trade show, there were pictures.

ah... here you go

and

Can't find the picture though.

The unit used is 1st generation (?) TREG.

Like I said, just the facts.

R

 

[dabigkahuna]

The other day I posted about a past experience with a TB problem. I was, of course, criticized for bringing up an old story. But I posted it for these reasons:

1. Because some people might find an example of how some things have developed to be interesting, old or not. So I don't really care if some disrupter doesn't.

2. Because, indirectly, I was also describing a recent problem that I have just confirmed is fixed. But I hadn't finished testing it until now, so I wasn't going to talk about it directly until I was. So, I simply covered it with a very similar problem from the past. And if it also happened to trap a disruptive critic into saying something dumb, that was a bonus.

That testing is done so I can continue with more specifics:

It was another chord timing issue and again had to do with the "TH" on dvorak - but this time connected to the macro chord (which is "TH" on dvorak). Until now, there was no timing filter for it. Now there is (and for other chords as well). Details:

When I would try to type "three", my style often treated the "th" as the macro signal and then it would try to execute "macro-R". Nothing was in that macro spot so all I would see on the screen would be "ee" rather than "three". So I just chose the new macro filter and changed the timing - problem goes away. We have filters for the other chords as well now. Most of you will be fine with default settings though.

This is just one example of the advantages of the TB. It can be adjusted to individual styles and our testing helps WT figure out how best to do that. But it does take time to work these things out, which is a bummer. Otoh, these things don't seem to affect shipping because the hardware is delaying things anyway. While hardware is being dealt with, programmers clean up smaller firmware issues, whether they could affect shipping or not. Which makes sense.

BTW, when they do general shipping and you get your TextBlades, I recommend starting with just the default settings. You're going to take a little time to adjust to the new, reduced, vertical distances as well as the ergonomic shape. Regardless of you habits, in most cases you'll adjust to the keyboard pretty quick. But in a few, like the two I described for me, you may eventually decide you need the keyboard to adjust to you. Pretty nice!

They'll be lots of testers who can also tell you of customizations they've done to make things work better that you can try yourself. There is a wiki set up to help you as well.

 

[maflynn]

[MOD NOTE]
Enough with the bickering and arguing. A number of posts were removed.

 

[Rolanbek]

[MOD NOTE]
Enough with the bickering and arguing. A number of posts were removed.

... Soooooo not clear what you want here. I can't quite tell were the tone of the thread needs to go. Discussion, often entails disagreement, queries and clarification. If someone says "X" is so, it must be OK to ask for evidence for "X". Otherwise this thread becomes a noticeboard full of unverified claims.

The other day I posted about a past experience with a TB problem. I was, of course, criticized for bringing up an old story. But I posted it for these reasons:

1. Because some people might find an example of how some things have developed to be interesting, old or not. So I don't really care if some disrupter doesn't.

2. Because, indirectly, I was also describing a recent problem that I have just confirmed is fixed. But I hadn't finished testing it until now, so I wasn't going to talk about it directly until I was. So, I simply covered it with a very similar problem from the past. And if it also happened to trap a disruptive critic into saying something dumb, that was a bonus.

1. They might. I don't see a flood of likes to demonstrate that, but benefit of the doubt and all that. If you you don't care why mention it? Seem counter-intuitive to me, draw attention to the thing that you don't care about.

2. Yup I gave reasons why that was only of potential anecdotal interest as the beginning and end point of the story are the same. There is no progress, only a backward step followed by a forward step returning the reader to where they began. Not sure what you think was a dumb thing, you are quite negative regarding all discussion and inquiry so it is hard to tell.

Regarding the rest of the advert:

A good reference point for the reader would be to state how usable you find the product in it's factory settings. Then indicate how much you needed to change various setting to make it optimal for you. It qualifies your and validates your claim and gives you advice context.

After all the advice is not WT advice so context, framing etc is important.

The wiki isn't WT's Wiki though? It's third party. It full of how to handle BLE requirement on non-BLE platforms. Good stuff but not official.

R

 

[Night Spring]

Soooooo not clear what you want here. I can't quite tell were the tone of the thread needs to go. Discussion, often entails disagreement, queries and clarification. If someone says "X" is so, it must be OK to ask for evidence for "X". Otherwise this thread becomes a noticeboard full of unverified claims.

Personally, I'd prefer it if you stopped trying to get dabigkahuna to explain his motivations for posting here, his relationship to WayTools, etc. It just leads to the two of you having a circular argument that goes nowhere.

 

[Rolanbek]

Personally, I'd prefer it if you stopped trying to get dabigkahuna to explain his motivations for posting here, his relationship to WayTools, etc. It just leads to the two of you having a circular argument that goes nowhere.

It's not really an argument. He never answers the questions and just keeps posting the same stuff you can get on the WT forum, from other TREG users.

I'll admit that you can't get anywhere with a discussion where someone won't discuss. And the washing machine cycle of responses is dull as anything.

My point I suppose has already been well served by the 20 post back and forth. In short:

Me: Why don't you invite people to the forum, post links to primary sources, or even include links to other TREG members posts? Can you answers specific questions regarding what you said?

Him: You hate freedom. You have an Agenda, Here is an anecdote about other people/other times/other subjects. Here are my top ten insinuations/name calling.

A great example was the "is it yours" question. The answer is "no, it isn't. I don't own a thing until TREG is done, then it is sorted out" Easy-peasy. But nope, lot's of rah-rah-rah. So I found the TREG NDA out and check what he had agreed to to get the TREG unit and updated my own answer. Then more Rah-Rah-rah. I just don't get the massive level of obstructiveness to series of justifiable questions, and the boat load of insinuation that someone might ask them. Just why?

If you want to keep him as your sole news source on this topic. That's fine. I don't actually mind, It's just there are others https://forum.waytools.com/latest

hell, a guy just did first impressions here. https://forum.waytools.com/t/first-two-days-of-being-a-treg-user/4701 for example.

I'm going to come back in a week with a progress report based on WT updates since their last one, to see what the latest personal attack from him is, because he always makes me laugh, and to broaden the conversation a little.

Not going anywhere soon (unless of course MR just want the thread to be what it has been for months, a one man show.)

R

 

[Night Spring]

Me: Why don't you invite people to the forum, post links to primary sources, or even include links to other TREG members posts?

I don't remember you ever asking specifically for links to other TREG members' posts, but I probably missed it in all the verbiage.

I do know where the WT forum is, but in the ordinary course of things, I don't even remember to check it. Somebody posts in this thread, I get a notification.

Right now, I'm just curious to see if this thing ever ships. I don't bother with the details of the latest excuses for further delays, it's one thing or other that doesn't matter to me. So when I get a notice of new post, I come here to see -- if it's another delay, I just bug out.

 

[KaliYoni]

I think Rolanbek's posts do have a useful purpose in that they can serve as warnings about both the (alleged) product and of conflicts of interest in other posts here.

Anybody who comes across WayTools now, after years of its delays, lies, aggressive attitude towards purchasers, and all the rest of their toxic behavior, deserves to know the true nature of the TextBlade advance-payment scam.

 

[dabigkahuna]

An aspect of the TB not normally talked about is the non-slip coating on the blades as well as the nano-stands. I've seen this concept on many devices, but typically I'm not impressed as they seem to have minimal effect. I don't know what it is that WT uses, but it does a darn good job. Mark Knighton talked some about the effort they made to find something that worked well, but I don't recall what country they ended up getting it from. It's a relatively little thing, but it affects you usage in a very positive way.

Now, at home I normally have the TB on a piece of plastic that has a small metal sheet inside. I do this because it really holds it rock solid because of the TB magnets and if I want, I can set this down on it's edge next to my chair and everything stays in place. But if I'm out somewhere and need to use it on a counter, desk, or table, the device is still more stable, without being at all sticky, than other devices I've seen.

Speaking of the stand, there was a problem with them for some people - they were cracking sometimes. Sometimes through misuse, but not always. So WT made the plastic a little thicker. I don't think any tester has those versions yet.

But it is worth noting something about the stands. You see, a number of people like to claim WT doesn't have the skills to get the TB right. Could be, but also just an assumption. An example of this thinking came after we found out they had to alter the stand design slightly. We had someone talk about how it was obvious that the stands were poorly designed - yet this claim didn't come until after the actual problem was revealed. Hindsight is a rather big advantage!

Now, I do think there is a problem with these stands - and could still exist in the replacements (don't know yet). There are two sizes, based on how big a device you can fit in the slot. The smaller one will, for example, fit an iphone if it doesn't have a case. The larger one can handle a case - but from what I've seen, only the thinnest Apple case (the leather one, I believe). To me, that makes no sense. Of course, it may not be practical to cover ALL case sizes - some are darn thick - but only one? The difference in size is so small, you have to look close even when they are sitting side by side to tell the difference.

So I'm hoping the new ones will allow more case sizes. Meanwhile, it is easy enough to cut or grind out the gap a bit to fit something larger, but I don't want that to be necessary for my use.

 

[KaliYoni]

I'm just curious to see if this thing ever ships.

I don't think it will unless WT ropes in a deep-pocketed investor, is acquired by a company willing to fund taking the TB to final release, or sells the underlying technology to a firm looking to shorten their own development cycle for a compact keyboard.

The current situation, where WT sits around hoping for a deus ex machina and any new purchases are merely going to keeping the lights on, is unlikely to result in a retail release. As well, external factors, including the end of investors chasing yield due to low interest rates and continuing advances in embedded haptics, are daily decreasing the chances of the TB ever moving beyond the prototype stage.

 

[Trickflow]

So, I will keep this short and to the point. I was silenced on the Waytools forum. I have asked them through both email as well as the forum account as to why. No answer and it has been well over a week.

I took my money back in February, 1 week past my year anniversary of paying for a product that they said was "in mass production". As I can sympathize that they have problems and perhaps they should have tested this before making such a false claim, I can not sympathize with how they treat people that have paid.

Personally I am also tired of DBK's cheerleader responses, which are in his right to do and it is not a personal attack, just an observation and a personal feeling of mine. I tend to agree with R and others that are questioning his relationship with Waytools as I can't see anyone spending this much time doing quasi customer relations.

Let's just stick with FACTS:
1. Waytools has been untruthful in the units being production ready.
2. Waytools made an unnecessary change in the butterflies AFTER they said they were production ready.
3. Hardware is not ready.
4. Firmware is not ready.
5. Estimates are either reading tea leaves at best, fraudulent at worst.
6. Taking new orders at this time showing an estimated ship date is unprofessional and deceitful.

My advice to take your money back if you ordered or not to give them your hard earned money if you didn't yet until there is hard proof that the product will make it out the door.

 

[Deanster]

I just saw this thread pop up on the Macrumors sidebar, and I'm blown away that we're still in the exact same place.

There's test units, they need hardware/firmware fixes to really work right, which will be ANY DAY NOW, and then they'll ship shortly.

It's been the same story since I first heard of TextBlade, and I've never been so glad I didn't put up cash for a product up front.

I've done a lot of product development work, both hardware and software, and I know it's HARD. Hard to do well, hard to get right, even harder to do all that and make money.

But this situation is so far out of control it's not even funny. I truly don't know how anyone can take anything this company has to say with even the smallest bit of confidence at this point.

 

[KaliYoni]

My advice to take your money back if you ordered or not to give them your hard earned money if you didn't yet until there is hard proof that the product will make it out the door.

As a former retailer, I advise anybody thinking about requesting a refund from WayTools to do so as soon as possible.

At some point, very possibly in the next few weeks, WT's credit card processor will close its account. An account closure can be triggered by many things, including high volumes of refund requests or non-delivery claims, with non-card present merchants having a lower threshold. Once WT's bank or processor pulls the plug, or WT decides to file for bankruptcy protection, it will be effectively impossible to get your money back. Even worse, WT's policy of charging credit cards upon ordering, not shipment, drastically reduces cardholders' ability to dispute the (for many, now years old) transaction.

 

[Night Spring]

At some point, very possibly in the next few weeks, WT's credit card processor will close its account.

Isn't it somewhat odd that this hasn't happened already?

 

[dabigkahuna]

I was silenced on the Waytools forum.

No, you weren't. You were restricted in how often you can post. You may, or may not, have a legitimate beef there (I'm not going to research it), but this is quite different from really being "silenced". And I'll give you a comparison. On your reddit forum, my name is brought up a lot - typically misrepresented. Guess what?I'm not allowed to respond at all! And the logic is truly fascinating. That it is supposedly off topic for one thing - yet I wasn't even reading that forum until long after my name was brought up many times. If those posts are on topic, how can a response from me be off topic???

So, the very thing you complain about with WT is nothing compared to how the critics favorite forum works.

I tend to agree with R and others that are questioning his relationship with Waytools as I can't see anyone spending this much time doing quasi customer relations.

So you can't see it, so once again the focus is not on what I say and the actual arguments bring, but "questioning his relationship". We have yet another comparison to make here. Because I never question people on that connections they may have which could lead them to want to be negative.

This tactic is almost totally from one side.
[doublepost=1473893834][/doublepost]

Let's just stick with FACTS:

1, 4, 5, and 6 are not "facts". Some of those may be PARTIALLY true, but not all. For example, you include firmware as not being ready (I'm choosing this example since at least in isn't derogatory). But we don't know that. We know it isn't listed as a gating issue. We know they are making improvements to it so, yeah, it is still getting better, but if the hardware was ready to ship, they may well consider the firmware to be good enough too. Maybe not. I don't know. No one outside of WT does. But that means it isn't a fact. It is an unknown. And yes, I wish WT would be clearer about it.
[doublepost=1473893975][/doublepost]

I truly don't know how anyone can take anything this company has to say with even the smallest bit of confidence at this point.

Okay, I think that criticism is legit. Lacking confidence in any estimate they give is fine, considering the history. Yet it doesn't accuse them of lying about estimates, which is quite different.
[doublepost=1473894205][/doublepost]

At some point, very possibly in the next few weeks, WT's credit card processor will close its account.

That's a pretty strong claim. But what is it based on? Sure, it could happen - no one knows their financial situation or what it is based on (I'm ignoring the claims that it is from orders because it is just that - a claim).

May be funded through NextEngine. Maybe be funded via VC. No one really knows.

But I think a claim like yours needs something specific to base it on. Otherwise, why would it be now or soon compared to any other time?

 

[dabigkahuna]

One of my special layouts.

I wanted to be able to access media controls with one hand and one finger. Since this is a situation where I may tap something but not again for many minutes, it didn't work to put the special media controls in the Number or Edit layer. True, you can lock those two layers, but the lock clears after 3 minutes of not hitting a key.

So I put the media on the main layer on the right side and, since it was available, the edit layer stuff on the left side of the main layer.

Then I put the alpha stuff on the Number layer. Locking this when doing normal typing is fine since usually I won't be idle for 3 minutes at a time. And put the stuff from the normal main green layer into the Number green layer so, essentially, I can type normally after activating number lock.

I can see similar approaches used for playing some games. Just create special layouts for them!

 

[dabigkahuna]

Decisions, decisions:

Due to the vast customization you can do, sometimes it can be hard to decide what to actually change and the best way of doing it. Sort of like, if stores only sold 4 models of TVs, you could probably pretty easily pick the one best for you. But instead you have dozens of possibilities with darn near infinite trade-offs and you can't make up you mind!

So, as I've said, I recommend sticking with the defaults for awhile. But I will point out one I made in the images above on both the main "green" layer and the green layer associated with the Number lock layer (they are the same).

The problem with the regular numbers comes into play then you need a decimal (or a comma for thousands, but my main problem was the decimal). This is a problem on dvorak keyboards because the decimal is on the same key as the number. To get a number, you hold down the space bar (thus moving into the green layer) and you will get numbers rather than letters. Since I changed the Alpha layer so much, just look at the Number layer and the green Number layer under it.

So, I want to type 103.68.

The numbers are real easy as your thumbs hold the space bar down and you can still easily hit any number key with the appropriate fingers. But what about that decimal? Well, you'd have to lift the thumb up, hit the period key (same as the key with the number 3 on the green layer), hold down space again as you type the last two numbers.

Definitely feels weird! I've gotten much better at it, but when it comes to numbers, I don't type nearly as fast (but faster than on a regular keyboard) and if it has a decimal, I practically stop as I go through that process step by step.

So, I made a change. You may see on the far left side, a period on the green layer. This way I can do a decimal while still holding the space bar down.

But I haven't decided if that is the best way. It would be more logical to put it where the ESC is, right next to the "1". I considered switching it with ESC, but I figured I was more likely to accidentally hit that middle key rather than the top left so I haven't decided yet.

That's the kind of decisions you may find yourself making as you customize things to suit you best.

 

[Trickflow]

No, you weren't. You were restricted in how often you can post. You may, or may not, have a legitimate beef there (I'm not going to research it), but this is quite different from really being "silenced".

WRONG. I am UNABLE to post at all. I was downgraded to new user a few month ago which restricted my posts, however 2 weeks ago I got this message:

Hello,

This is an automated message from WayTools to let you know that your account has been temporarily placed on hold as a precautionary measure.

Please do continue to browse, but you won't be able to reply or create topics until a staff member reviews your most recent posts. We apologize for the inconvenience.

For additional guidance, refer to our community guidelines.
___

So myself and a few others have been silenced this way. I have checked and I did not break guidelines to the best of my knowledge and Waytools will not respond when I ask them what I did wrong.

 

[dabigkahuna]

Okay. When I looked at the website, the summary said your last post was 1 day ago, but the last post showing says August 31st so there is a glitch there.

I have no idea why you were blocked. Like I said, I'm not planning on researching your posts to see if I can tell. However, my conclusion was accurate:

"So, the very thing you complain about with WT is nothing compared to how the critics favorite forum works."

 

[dabigkahuna]

Just did a little test, recharging the TB after it was completely out of battery charge. I recharged it for exactly 1 minute and then gave it pretty heavy use until it died again. It lasted 33 minutes.

 

[Trickflow]

1, 4, 5, and 6 are not "facts".

So, let's go backwards:
#6: Taking new orders at this time showing an estimated ship date is unprofessional and deceitful.

Tell me what you disagree with? Click here and tell me it isn't unprofessional and deceitful?
https://waytools.com/availability

Currently showing me in graphic form that I have "availability" in February 2017. I saw the EXACT same thing when I ordered which showed 3rd week in April 2015.

#5: Estimates are either reading tea leaves at best, fraudulent at worst.
Again, see availability above as well as:
https://waytools.com/threads/blog/waytools-unveils-textblade
Also, they have missed the mark how many times now? I know there was a thread on Waytools forum that showed this, but I believe it is above 10 missed estimates.

#4: Firmware is not ready.
We heard about a "code freeze" back in September of 2015. Adam Tow even made a funny calendar about this code freeze. Until we get an official notice from Waytools of a "code freeze", my #4 stands.

#1: Waytools has been untruthful in the units being production ready.
Please again go here:
https://waytools.com/threads/blog/waytools-unveils-textblade

Now go down to "Pricing and availability" and read the first sentence which is:
"TextBlade has now entered mass production, and deliveries begin in February."

The date of this article is January 13, 2015!!!

How can you even in good faith say that I am wrong or only "partially" correct on that? I paid and bought what they showed. That they changed the product is not my problem.

I believe they are a deceitful company and I think they should be held to the same scrutiny as any other company.